The Thread Where People Argue About Kneeling in the NFL (merged)

[turbovol]

To me patriotism has nothing to do with loyalty or fealty to a government, I actually believe being loyal, respectful or reverent to a government is the opposite of being a patriot. Being simple and short, to me patriotism is the respect and willingness to defend individual liberty and freedom from the government (majority).

Patriotism is being loyal to and supportive of your country. Period.

Why would MAGA support a man who is more loyal to a war criminal and enemy of American and our democratic values than he is to our country?

 

[hog88]

Aside from it being common knowledge for anyone who's spent enough time outside their living room, here's a pamphlet for you.

Countries with Freedom of Speech 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

I’m sorry but how can a country where “hate speech” insulting a religion is punishable by prison be ranked #5 on free speech? Your list is crap.

 

[hog88]

Patriotism is being loyal to and supportive of your country. Period.

Why would MAGA support a man who is more loyal to a war criminal and enemy of American and our democratic values than he is to our country?

What is “your country” is it the government or the people that make up your country?

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

To me patriotism has nothing to do with loyalty or fealty to a government, I actually believe being loyal, respectful or reverent to a government is the opposite of being a patriot. Being simple and short, to me patriotism is the respect and willingness to defend individual liberty and freedom from the government (majority).

I'm sure you would agree protesting is one of the purest forms of patriotism

 

[n_huffhines]

I’m sorry but how can a country where “hate speech” insulting a religion is punishable by prison be ranked #5 on free speech? Your list is crap.

They give you hints. Like I said earlier, when we think of speech, we don't even consider stuff like copyright or saying words like "bong" in a store.

 

[hog88]

I'm sure you would agree protesting is one of the purest forms of patriotism

Absolutely. And sometimes violence is.

 

[hog88]

They give you hints. Like I said earlier, when we think of speech, we don't even consider stuff like copyright or saying words like "bong" in a store.

View attachment 603066

I always laugh when people bring up the "yelling fire in a theater" example of limits on speech. Just like your hands, you cannot use speech to harm others.

Yes, there are limits on speech in this country, our arcane laws on obscenity is a great example but most if not all of the countries listed above us also have similar or even more stringent obscenity laws.

 

[n_huffhines]

I always laugh when people bring up the "yelling fire in a theater" example of limits on speech. Just like your hands, you cannot use speech to harm others.

Yes, there are limits on speech in this country, our arcane laws on obscenity is a great example but most if not all of the countries listed above us also have similar or even more stringent obscenity laws.

I just don't know enough about the laws in those countries or our own honestly. I think you are probably right that we are pretty well protected from direct government retribution but we're not very well protected from civil court consequences.

The Rolling Stones "borrowed" a component of an old blues/folk song to make The Last Time and copyrighted it. Then along came The Verve who borrowed a bit of the melody but completely gave it a face-lift to the point that nobody would notice it's borrowed. It was for their biggest hit Bittersweet Symphony. It doesn't sound anything like the Stones but the Stones were awarded royalties on it and sole songwriting credits. It's a ridiculous result and is a speech issue, even tho we may not think of it like that. Copyright law is completely out of control in the west.

Bitter Sweet Symphony - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[hog88]

I just don't know enough about the laws in those countries or our own honestly. I think you are probably right that we are pretty well protected from direct government retribution but we're not very well protected from civil court consequences.

The Rolling Stones "borrowed" a component of an old blues/folk song to make The Last Time and copyrighted it. Then along came The Verve who borrowed a bit of the melody but completely gave it a face-lift to the point that nobody would notice it's borrowed. It was for their biggest hit Bittersweet Symphony. It doesn't sound anything like the Stones but the Stones were awarded royalties on it and sole songwriting credits. It's a ridiculous result and is a speech issue, even tho we may not think of it like that. Copyright law is completely out of control in the west.

Bitter Sweet Symphony - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I agree that our copyright and patent laws are in serious need of reform.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

I’m sorry but how can a country where “hate speech” insulting a religion is punishable by prison be ranked #5 on free speech? Your list is crap.

Lol, it's crap despite its detailed explanations as to how it churns out the numbers.

You simply have a different definition of free speech that better suits your romanticized view of 'Murica.

Criminally speaking, I guess we're more protected than most, but our civil justice system is pretty ****ed in those terms. It may be harder to lamd prison time for words here, but this country sure has ways of running you into the poor house with copyright, libel, and slander laws.

 

[hog88]

Lol, it's crap despite its detailed explanations as to how it churns out the numbers.

You simply have a different definition of free speech that better suits your romanticized view of 'Murica.

Criminally speaking, I guess we're more protected than most, but our civil justice system is pretty ****ed in those terms. It may be harder to lamd prison time for words here, but this country sure has ways of running you into the poor house with copyright, libel, and slander laws.

You're link was an opinion poll, nothing scientific about it. Hence it is crap.

Yes, I agree we need serious reforms in copyright. libel and slander laws but so do almost every country listed higher than us in your link. I'll put it in simple terms so that you can understand, if a government can criminally fine or imprison you for non harmful speech you do not enjoy freedom of speech.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

You're link was an opinion poll, nothing scientific about it. Hence it is crap.

Yes, I agree we need serious reforms in copyright. libel and slander laws but so do almost every country listed higher than us in your link. I'll put it in simple terms so that you can understand, if a government can criminally fine or imprison you for non harmful speech you do not enjoy freedom of speech.

Opinions of several versus hog's incredible worldly experience

If a judicial system, even in the civil circuit, can make you pay restitution for slander or hate speech, what's the difference?

 

[hog88]

Opinions of several versus hog's incredible worldly experience

If a judicial system, even in the civil circuit, can make you pay restitution for slander or hate speech, what's the difference?

What country ranked higher do not have slander laws?

 

[DinkinFlicka]

I forgot that hog gets his man peach in a jam when you wipe your ass with the shortcomings of our constititution.

 

[hog88]

I forgot that hog gets his in a jam when you wipe your ass with the shortcomings of our constititution.

LOL

Man you sure get pissy when your argument gets slapped into the stands.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

LOL

Man you sure get pissy when your argument gets slapped into the stands.

Is that how you'd describe what you've done?

That's hilarious.

 

[hog88]

Is that how you'd describe what you've done?

That's hilarious.

Oh yeah. Your only backup to your argument is a pol based on feelings.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

What is “your country” is it the government or the people that make up your country?

Both. As people, we elect people to govern for us

 

[hog88]

Both. As people, we elect people to govern for us

True but the problem is we have allowed the people we elected to appoint bureaucrats that actually run the government annd are accountable to no one. So loyalty to government is IMO not a prerequisite for patriotism.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

True but the problem is we have allowed the people we elected to appoint bureaucrats that actually run the government annd are accountable to no one. So loyalty to government is IMO not a prerequisite for patriotism.

Yes, I agree. Even more so, the people we have elected have decided to govern, ideologically and tribally, rather than pragmatically, refusing to compromise for the benefit of the people who elected them

 

[EasternVol]

What stats or links can you provide to disprove mine?

The notion that our first amendment is the strongest of its kind is a bit whimsical.

Look at how the Canadian gov. treated their COVID protesters, the French their yellow vests, and the British, French, and Germans their pro-Palestinian protesters recently.

 

[EasternVol]

Patriotism is being loyal to and supportive of your country. Period.

Why would MAGA support a man who is more loyal to a war criminal and enemy of American and our democratic values than he is to our country?

That's in itself is not patriotism, it's blind nationalism. It's how dictators get and keep power. Patriotism is also wanting and doing what's in the best interests of the country's people.

 

[hog88]

Look at how the Canadian gov. treated their COVID protesters, the French their yellow vests, and the British, French, and Germans their pro-Palestinian protesters recently.

But he posted a link he found on the interweb.

 

[EasternVol]

But he posted a link he found on the interweb.

There's that, and we all know they can't put it on the webs if it's not true.