The Tennessee Takeover

#76

sjt18

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#76
My goodness you are a salty today. Perhaps I have given you too much credit that you don't read into a post and you take it on face value.
Nothing I have discussed is an any way an attack on you, what you think, how you think, or why you think it. It doesn't bother me if you have expectations to go undefeated. Maybe a clearer structure to the sentence is, ...if you were to have undefeated expectations.

The second part of what I wrote was sharing how I formed my opinion re: casual fans and a legitimate question if you have evidence showing casual fans impacting an established coach and another legit question why you would want to be counted out if others didn't share your expectations.

If you can't answer those questions we can chalk it up to an inability to answer or maybe because you're having a bad day. Maybe you simply find me and my posts detestable...which is fine; a lot of people do.
Go back and fix your jack assery then maybe we can have a "genuine discussion". I engage almost anyone here.... you are becoming an exception not because you disagree but because you are disagreeable.
 
#77

McDad

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#77
Go back and fix your jack assery then maybe we can have a "genuine discussion". I engage almost anyone here.... you are becoming an exception not because you disagree but because you are disagreeable.
Illuminate the jack assery and I will do my best to bring the clarity necessary to salvage the discussion.

You've got a bad take on me today. Seriously.
 
#78

Kngsport VFL

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#78
A Winning coach should be rewarded for his team's accomplishments, just as a loser should reap the results of that. Tennessee is long overdue! Maybe this time will be different?
Maybe 3-4 years from now, we'll all be loving it! If not, we are certainly used to failure.
 
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#79

sjt18

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#79
It doesn't bother me at all if you have ridiculously high expectations to go defeated every season. I just don't see those as reasonable. I support your right to 'knock yourself out'.

Unless those fans are donating, or attending games, or driving a media narrative, fan's sentiment is a non issue. I would like to see some tangible evidence where the casual fans impacted an established coach. If you have some to share, I would be happy to check it out. I've been to a handful of games the last 5 seasons. I don't know if you travel from Missouri to games regularly, or not. I don't see any examples where we message board warriors are consequential to our program.

ETA: Came back to ask why would you want to be counted out if others don't share your expectations? You've followed the program longer than some of the posters have lived. It doesn't detract from you watching the game. It doesn't impact your objective analysis of individual performance you share on VN. Why toss it all aside?
Not the disagreement. The disagreeableness.

I may or may not be "salty"... but it seems at least one other person noticed your tone.
 
#80

VolDave53

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#80
#81

hog88

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#81
I know, right? Even when I am seeking a genuine discussion, my reputation precedes me.

Dam you, hog for sullying my name on this forum.
Always here to help.

At least I haven't told them about your Pruitt poster in your room and bobble head on the dash of your truck.
 
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#82

McDad

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#82
Not the disagreement. The disagreeableness.

I may or may not be "salty"... but it seems at least one other person noticed your tone.
You can't trust @hog88. He is a known curmudgeon with a most vile heart and questionable spirit. Actually, he and I are good friends in the political forum.

I tried to clarify the "undefeated" line earlier. Let me take a step back and reset the conversation. I'll be more careful in my sentence structure this time.

Anyone holding high expectations doesn't bother me. In fact, even if you were to say we can go undefeated every year, I would not hold that against you. Fans are supposed to be fanatical in their support. I certainly wouldn't agree that we could go undefeated. I would take the approach of if you think we can go undefeated I support you, knock yourself out. The opinions of others about the expectations of our team don't effect my enjoyment when we play well and they don't impact my disappointment when we play poorly. We've had posters in the past and have posters currently who bring those expectations to the board every year.

Additionally, it doesn't hurt me if someone has a higher expectation than mine but less than undefeated. I believe this is where you are. You typically bring a reasoned approach to your assessments which I find insightful even if I disagree with your conclusion. In fact, you stating your case in a logical manner is why I follow you in my user settings. So, I am not looking to do battle over 9-3 or 6-6 or where we 'should' be as a program. I am more interested in how you are arriving at your position. The same is true for my two questions. I am not aware of fan expectations outside of the influential fan group impacting the outcome of an established coach. If you had evidence, even anecdotal, of a time when casual fans were a catalyst for change with a coach, I am sincerely interested in it. I may not agree with the conclusion, but I like to see how you come to your opinion.

And because you generally post in a logical way, I do not understand why you want to take a "count me out" approach if other casual fans didn't share your expectations. I would understand if it were boosters, administration, season tix holders, etc.

Hope this resets the unintended take you had in the tone in my posts. If I was unclear on anything, just let me know and I will do my best to improve.
 
#85

hog88

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#85
You can't trust @hog88. He is a known curmudgeon with a most vile heart and questionable spirit. Actually, he and I are good friends in the political forum.

I tried to clarify the "undefeated" line earlier. Let me take a step back and reset the conversation. I'll be more careful in my sentence structure this time.

Anyone holding high expectations doesn't bother me. In fact, even if you were to say we can go undefeated every year, I would not hold that against you. Fans are supposed to be fanatical in their support. I certainly wouldn't agree that we could go undefeated. I would take the approach of if you think we can go undefeated I support you, knock yourself out. The opinions of others about the expectations of our team don't effect my enjoyment when we play well and they don't impact my disappointment when we play poorly. We've had posters in the past and have posters currently who bring those expectations to the board every year.

Additionally, it doesn't hurt me if someone has a higher expectation than mine but less than undefeated. I believe this is where you are. You typically bring a reasoned approach to your assessments which I find insightful even if I disagree with your conclusion. In fact, you stating your case in a logical manner is why I follow you in my user settings. So, I am not looking to do battle over 9-3 or 6-6 or where we 'should' be as a program. I am more interested in how you are arriving at your position. The same is true for my two questions. I am not aware of fan expectations outside of the influential fan group impacting the outcome of an established coach. If you had evidence, even anecdotal, of a time when casual fans were a catalyst for change with a coach, I am sincerely interested in it. I may not agree with the conclusion, but I like to see how you come to your opinion.

And because you generally post in a logical way, I do not understand why you want to take a "count me out" approach if other casual fans didn't share your expectations. I would understand if it were boosters, administration, season tix holders, etc.

Hope this resets the unintended take you had in the tone in my posts. If I was unclear on anything, just let me know and I will do my best to improve.
Don't insult them with lies!
 
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#86

zeppelin128

This is the way.
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#86
I would like to see how the board mood changes if this turns out to be true. A lot of us tend to avoid the FF due to the level of chronic acrimony. And that's coming from someone who mostly posts in the politics forum, lol.
If CJH turns out to be our Steve Spurrier (offensive guru) and has great results over a long, sustained tenure, it would be an amazing thing to witness. Simply looking at our schedule with legitimate belief we have a competitive chance would feel great to me.
This is ironic but very true lol. Gotta watch out when we venture out of the politics forum and invade the other forums...
 
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#89

sjt18

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#89
You can't trust @hog88. He is a known curmudgeon with a most vile heart and questionable spirit. Actually, he and I are good friends in the political forum.

I tried to clarify the "undefeated" line earlier. Let me take a step back and reset the conversation. I'll be more careful in my sentence structure this time.

Anyone holding high expectations doesn't bother me. In fact, even if you were to say we can go undefeated every year, I would not hold that against you. Fans are supposed to be fanatical in their support. I certainly wouldn't agree that we could go undefeated. I would take the approach of if you think we can go undefeated I support you, knock yourself out. The opinions of others about the expectations of our team don't effect my enjoyment when we play well and they don't impact my disappointment when we play poorly. We've had posters in the past and have posters currently who bring those expectations to the board every year.
I can buy that.... and I do not expect to go undefeated often and certainly not this season or next. But the standard implied that I responded to was that 7 or 8 wins on average was good enough. When I say "count me out"... I mean I can NEVER be on board with that kind of thinking.

Additionally, it doesn't hurt me if someone has a higher expectation than mine but less than undefeated. I believe this is where you are. You typically bring a reasoned approach to your assessments which I find insightful even if I disagree with your conclusion. In fact, you stating your case in a logical manner is why I follow you in my user settings. So, I am not looking to do battle over 9-3 or 6-6 or where we 'should' be as a program. I am more interested in how you are arriving at your position. The same is true for my two questions. I am not aware of fan expectations outside of the influential fan group impacting the outcome of an established coach. If you had evidence, even anecdotal, of a time when casual fans were a catalyst for change with a coach, I am sincerely interested in it. I may not agree with the conclusion, but I like to see how you come to your opinion.
I do not have precise statistics. What I can do is point to the relationship of attendance and TV ratings to the survivability of UT coaches. Noise on boards like this one is noticed by those making decisions. On a few occasions, it has even been mentioned in passing. I don't think the powerful are happy about having to listen to fans... but they do because they want the program to be financially profitable if nothing else.

Another subjective measure is something is common as t-shirts. UT licensing is big money. When the football team does well, the value of licensing goes up. When it does poorly, UT t-shirts end up on the bargain table at Dollar General.

So whether direct as in attendance, concessions, or ratings or indirect as in the value of the "brand"... fan sentiment matters a lot to those who actually make decisions. It has to.

This is one of the reasons White started his tenure talking about the UT "brand". He knows there's money in it. He knows that the people hired him and by extension Heupel care about the money if nothing else.

And because you generally post in a logical way, I do not understand why you want to take a "count me out" approach if other casual fans didn't share your expectations. I would understand if it were boosters, administration, season tix holders, etc.
Count me out of EVER agreeing with a standard that low.

Hope this resets the unintended take you had in the tone in my posts. If I was unclear on anything, just let me know and I will do my best to improve.
No. Thank you for taking the time and clearing it up with a good bit of patience and grace. I apologize for overreacting and unfairly assuming bad intent on your part.
 
#94

kbear01

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#94
Let's say Coach Heupel does what all previous coaches claimed they would do, and locks down the state in recruiting. Let's say the results of this after 5 seasons is consistent 8-4 or 9-3 type seasons, which allows the team to consistently finish 2nd or 3rd in the east and top 15-20 in the rankings. The offense is really good. The defense is really good. All of the losses are in close games (a touchdown or less). Multiple players are going in the draft every year. Do you put your support behind him for 5 more years, or do you clamor for a big name coach to get us to the next level?
Well, we gave Johnny 16 years to get us to the next level. I'd say at one point and time, we were patient. It took Fulmer to get us over the hump. But, what really gets me is, Johnny had the talent to go to the next level, consistently, and just couldn't. For instance, we beat Miami in the Sugar Bowl, and came right back the next year, and went 7-5. Went 11-1, in 89-90, and follow it up with 9-2-2. Went 10-2 in 87-88, and then lost our first 6 of 88-89, to go 5-6. Was it Johnny's drinking?
 
#95

Border Vol

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#95
Well, we gave Johnny 16 years to get us to the next level. I'd say at one point and time, we were patient. It took Fulmer to get us over the hump. But, what really gets me is, Johnny had the talent to go to the next level, consistently, and just couldn't. For instance, we beat Miami in the Sugar Bowl, and came right back the next year, and went 7-5. Went 11-1, in 89-90, and follow it up with 9-2-2. Went 10-2 in 87-88, and then lost our first 6 of 88-89, to go 5-6. Was it Johnny's drinking?
I would say winning the SEC in 1985,1989 and 1990 is getting the program over the top
 
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#98

McDad

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#98
I can buy that.... and I do not expect to go undefeated often and certainly not this season or next. But the standard implied that I responded to was that 7 or 8 wins on average was good enough. When I say "count me out"... I mean I can NEVER be on board with that kind of thinking.

I do not have precise statistics. What I can do is point to the relationship of attendance and TV ratings to the survivability of UT coaches. Noise on boards like this one is noticed by those making decisions. On a few occasions, it has even been mentioned in passing. I don't think the powerful are happy about having to listen to fans... but they do because they want the program to be financially profitable if nothing else.

Another subjective measure is something is common as t-shirts. UT licensing is big money. When the football team does well, the value of licensing goes up. When it does poorly, UT t-shirts end up on the bargain table at Dollar General.

So whether direct as in attendance, concessions, or ratings or indirect as in the value of the "brand"... fan sentiment matters a lot to those who actually make decisions. It has to.

This is one of the reasons White started his tenure talking about the UT "brand". He knows there's money in it. He knows that the people hired him and by extension Heupel care about the money if nothing else.

Count me out of EVER agreeing with a standard that low.


No. Thank you for taking the time and clearing it up with a good bit of patience and grace. I apologize for overreacting and unfairly assuming bad intent on your part.
There is a lot of common ground between us in your post. For the record, there is no doubt when bottom line revenue suffers from poor performance, change is inevitable. That encompasses all those tangibles you mentioned and the intangible "brand".

I am still dubious a casual fan or a group of casual fans have much sway over the direction of a program when expectations aren't met. Some of us don't contribute much revenue regardless of wins and losses.

If 8 wins is too low for you, and our historical win percentage equates to about 8 wins a season, then I surmise you think UT historically under performs relative to expectations?
 

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