The shut down thread

#4,726
#4,726
Hunerwadel said:
But we weren't winning militarily. We were winning battles, nearly every one, but they were winning the war. The press especially Cronkite pointed it out. Of course the press was questioned, but it turns out they got it right.
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I wasn’t alive then. But it seems to me all we lost were expectations.
 
#4,727
#4,727
Hunerwadel said:
But we weren't winning militarily. We were winning battles, nearly every one, but they were winning the war. The press especially Cronkite pointed it out. Of course the press was questioned, but it turns out they got it right.
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We weren't winning a war of attrition, and the rules of engagement were insuring there wasn't strategic winning either ... that happens when you try to close the wrong end of a pipeline, fight the wrong kind of war, and allow the enemy sanctuary.

Just talking about Tet and nothing more. That was definitely a loss for the other side, but the press made it out to be a US loss. A lie is a lie, no matter how you spin it. LBJ and McNamara lied to the country and to themselves about how things were going because they were cooking the books to make it look better than it was - fooling themselves in the process; so, yes, the press caught on and probably only because Tet got their attention by happening in places like Saigon right in front of them.

Whether the war was winnable can be debated forever, but almost certainly not by the Johnson/McNamara rules. The other part is the one about fighting an Asian war; we as a country lose interest when the bodies start coming home and then become antiwar; Asians are in it for the long haul, and we can't/won't match their patience. You either fight to win ... no holds barred, or don't go. Since then we've repeated the same errors ... just in new places. Technology probably will never defeat a low tech enemy at home in his own backyard and terrain to his liking (our own Revolution is a great example), but it sure is expensive. Makes you wonder how much wall just one day in Afghanistan or Syria would build.
 
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#4,730
#4,730
1972 Grad said:
I knew 5 people whose names are on that wall when I visited it in D.C. They were people that I either went to high school with, played baseball with, or knew them through my parents' business.
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I've always wondered how many guys I knew in basic (1967) are on the wall - there were a lot of draftees and little doubt about where they would go. Those of us who enlisted generally had something other than a short 11B career ahead of us. I only know two for sure on the wall ... neither really well.

Two places that really hit me when I visited them are the Wall and the Peace Park in Hiroshima.
 
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#4,731
#4,731
AM64 said:
We weren't winning a war of attrition, and the rules of engagement were insuring there wasn't strategic winning either ... that happens when you try to close the wrong end of a pipeline, fight the wrong kind of war, and allow the enemy sanctuary.

Just talking about Tet and nothing more. That was definitely a loss for the other side, but the press made it out to be a US loss. A lie is a lie, no matter how you spin it. LBJ and McNamara lied to the country and to themselves about how things were going because they were cooking the books to make it look better than it was - fooling themselves in the process; so, yes, the press caught on and probably only because Tet got their attention by happening in places like Saigon right in front of them.

Whether the war was winnable can be debated forever, but almost certainly not by the Johnson/McNamara rules. The other part is the one about fighting an Asian war; we as a country lose interest when the bodies start coming home and then become antiwar; Asians are in it for the long haul, and we can't/won't match their patience. You either fight to win ... no holds barred, or don't go. Since then we've repeated the same errors ... just in new places. Technology probably will never defeat a low tech enemy at home in his own backyard and terrain to his liking (our own Revolution is a great example), but it sure is expensive. Makes you wonder how much wall just one day in Afghanistan or Syria would build.
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I don’t think there was any way to win in Vietnam without invading the North and starting a war with China.
 
#4,735
#4,735
tvolsfan said:
I don’t think there was any way to win in Vietnam without invading the North and starting a war with China.
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China and participation was always questionable. Throughout history China and Vietnam were more enemies than friends, and Vietnam didn't want another colonizer, so who really knows.

There is an Asian saying you don't kill a snake by beating it's tail, but that is precisely what Johnson and McNamara did with respect to logistics by not going after ports and rail lines bringing in weapons to N Vietnam ... you can't fire a missile or a mortar round that you don't have. Air power is not the panacea that so many would like to believe, but it can certainly be effective on rail lines and ports ... not so much after stuff is more distributed. A multimillion dollar airplane going after individual trucks and bicycles is pretty absurd, but rail lines and bridges and port facilities are a much different thing. The bombing halts and restrictions over N Vietnam were well beyond stupid and fall into the area criminal misconduct, and that again was on LBJ and McNamara.
 
#4,736
#4,736
Mick said:
Why don't we protect the border like we do Area-51?
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Because Area 51 doesn’t give away free sh*+ that basically invites everyone to break the law. But let’s just add 50k Volts to the chain link fence and razor wire. That and enough border patrol guards heavily armed every 100 yds. Deal?
 
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