The QB Debate (Week 13)

JMSqb11

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If they could just get him to do the simple reads that Cut taught Ainge... I'd be happy. I really would.

This is one criticism I'll go ahead and toss out against Pruitt. Cut took an OL at least as bad and probably worse than the 2018 OL. He had very little talent at WR (Lucas Taylor, Austin Rogers, and Josh Briscoe were the top 3 receivers). He had one good RB (Foster). IIRC, the Vols scored over 400 pts that year. The much maligned "dink and dunk" kept D's off or Ainge. They gave him mostly simple reads according to what they said at the time. A short lateral passing game opened up running lanes... pass to set up the run. UT ran 54% of the time but most of the throws were less than 10 yards.

So why didn't UT resurrect a version of this O this year? I've criticized JG but surely he could run that? If not and a decision had been made before the season, they probably could have taught it to KC or even Maurer.
What in The hell are you talking about?

Cut’s line’s in 2006/2007 was stacked. That Oline would trounce our current line in a heartbeat.
 

GAVol

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What in The hell are you talking about?

Cut’s line’s in 2006/2007 was stacked. That Oline would trounce our current line in a heartbeat.
The line wasnt very good in 06 and 07. The offense had a bunch of quick reads and 3 step drops to overcome bad protections.
 

JMSqb11

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The line wasnt very good in 06 and 07. The offense had a bunch of quick reads and 3 step drops to overcome bad protections.
2006 had two NFL players and a 3rd in McNeil before he got a career ending injury.

The next year we added Jacques McClendon who basically started his entire career at UT.

Those lines were easily one of the better ones in the SEC those years. The big drop off occurred in 2008.

Amazingly horrible take!
 

GAVol

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2006 had two NFL players and a 3rd in McNeil before he got a career ending injury.

The next year we added Jacques McClendon who basically started his entire career at UT.

Those lines were easily one of the better ones in the SEC those years. The big drop off occurred in 2008.

Amazingly horrible take!
I don't know what to tell you. I saw it with my own two eyes. It's common knowledge that when Cut returned in 2006 he had to use a lot of quick stuff and at times it resembled the Run and Shoot. We threw it more than we ran it, used a ton of 3 step drops and rushed it for less than 4 ypc.
 
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S&C can make it a good bit better. Tatum and Ryan Johnson IMO can be good players with more size and power. Hard to see Jahmir Johnson putting 30-40 lbs on his frame to become an SEC caliber OG. I'm personally not counting on Smith. Hopefully he makes it back and they resolve his issues... but who knows? Niehaus is a 3rd year player and well under 300 lbs. Hard to see him gain and sustaining weight and power. Calbert and Carvin have some potential but weren't ready this year.

Some of the 1st and 2nd year guys could still become good players. OL's are as often built as they are found. Mizzou's best OL's have been low rated guys who didn't really make an impact until their 3rd or 4th year. This is one of the things that will determine Pruitt's fate.

Jones left the OL situation significantly worse than he found it... and remember that Dooley skipped a whole class of OL's.
Niehaus red shirted his first year and was injured last year and didn’t play at all. He was 265 when he was recruited, and was 290 entering fall camp his freshman year. He lost down to 270 last year due to being injured and having to miss most of the team work outs for the entire season. When he played on the O & W game, he was 270. He added 25 lbs of muscle between the spring and fall camp and is up to 295. He looks lean because he is 1/4” shy of being 6’7”. That’s a lot of body length to hold a lot of weight. He started @ RG at the Auburn game and did a pretty good job. Especially since he has never played Guard before in his career. He was a TE and an OT in high school. Guard is a brand new position for him. Are there things he needs to work on? Most certainly. Blocking, etc. But he is athletic, quick, and agressive. Give him an off season in S&C. He will be just fine.
 

sjt18

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Niehaus red shirted his first year and was injured last year and didn’t play at all. He was 265 when he was recruited, and was 290 entering fall camp his freshman year. He lost down to 270 last year due to being injured and having to miss most of the team work outs for the entire season. When he played on the O & W game, he was 270. He added 25 lbs of muscle between the spring and fall camp and is up to 295. He looks lean because he is 1/4” shy of being 6’7”. That’s a lot of body length to hold a lot of weight. He started @ RG at the Auburn game and did a pretty good job. Especially since he has never played Guard before in his career. He was a TE and an OT in high school. Guard is a brand new position for him. Are there things he needs to work on? Most certainly. Blocking, etc. But he is athletic, quick, and agressive. Give him an off season in S&C. He will be just fine.
I hope you are right.
 

sjt18

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What in The hell are you talking about?

Cut’s line’s in 2006/2007 was stacked. That Oline would trounce our current line in a heartbeat.
The second part wasn't my point. The fact is Cut went to the dink and dunk because they couldn't protect Ainge. They also didn't have good receivers. IIRC, UT was low in the SEC in rushing that year too. If you think your OL can dominate and have Foster and Hardesty in the back field... you run. Fulmer definitely thought that way. Yet they were a 55% dink and dunk offense.

PS- in the previous year Ainge proved he could throw it down field so that wasn't the issue.
 

TJ1985

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The second part wasn't my point. The fact is Cut went to the dink and dunk because they couldn't protect Ainge. They also didn't have good receivers. IIRC, UT was low in the SEC in rushing that year too. If you think your OL can dominate and have Foster and Hardesty in the back field... you run. Fulmer definitely thought that way. Yet they were a 55% dink and dunk offense.

PS- in the previous year Ainge proved he could throw it down field so that wasn't the issue.
I thought Cut changed the play calling due to Ainge's injury...
 

sjt18

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I thought Cut changed the play calling due to Ainge's injury...
I don't think so. The one thing you have to have to make an O built on quick outs, slants, and hitches is velocity. If the injury was a big factor and the OL wasn't... then why not hand the ball to Foster?
 

TJ1985

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I don't think so. The one thing you have to have to make an O built on quick outs, slants, and hitches is velocity. If the injury was a big factor and the OL wasn't... then why not hand the ball to Foster?
I agree with your premise, but I recall listening to Ainge's show and him talking about his injury. I don't remember his exact statement, so I won't try to give specifics.
 

GAVol

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I don't think so. The one thing you have to have to make an O built on quick outs, slants, and hitches is velocity. If the injury was a big factor and the OL wasn't... then why not hand the ball to Foster?
Remember the fumble where Ainge handed off to Foster with the wrong hand?

I can't remember when it occurred, but I know he couldn't throw it deep. But you're right, it was more about getting it out fast to overcome protection issues.
 
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I can appreciate there being 2 sides, differing opinions make for good conversation.

I think one thing that has been largely forgotten is that this is Jarrett and everyone else’s first year in this system. He had spring practice and fall camp to learn a completely new playbook and build rapport with a few tight ends and receivers that were either new to the program or didn’t have much (if any) game experience before this season.

I agree that he needs to work on his ability to anticipate pressure but I think a lot of that has to do with Helton teaching a very stripped down version of his offense largely due to the offensive line. It wasn’t too long ago that we didn’t even attempt a pass until 3rd and long for this very reason, which Pruitt confirmed in a post game presser earlier this year (can’t remember which game, but I think it might have been Georgia). As a result of constant pressure, recognizing blitzes probably hasn’t been a focal point because as we saw with Chryst, it doesn’t matter which QB plays, they’re gonna get hit almost every play. This isn’t an excuse, just an observation.

Additionally, JG’s completion percentage on passes 30 yards or more is currently top 10 in the country.

Jarrett’s ability to protect the football despite facing more pressure than any QB in the conference, combined with his arm talent and youth give me reason to believe that he’s going to be a very good ball player before his time on the hill runs out.

His improvement year-over-year has been nothing short of impressive in my humble opinion.

In the past 2 seasons we’ve tried Chryst, Dormady and McBride and Jarrett has been better than all of them. I don’t think Will Shrout will push Jarrett for the starting job anytime soon.
The QB that pushes JG will be a more cerebral type. One that spends extra time in the film room, learning the defensive tendencies of each week's opponent. The ability to extend plays with his legs will be a big plus, as I do not see the offensive line being a ton better next year. The ability to read defenses, get people lined up properly, and knowing, in general, where to look, pre-snap. JG showed no signs of this all season. Chryst, did show flashes. But, DC's got wise to him, quickly, took away the check down rb's or wr's, diguised their coverages, and backed off of him.
 
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If they could just get him to do the simple reads that Cut taught Ainge... I'd be happy. I really would.

This is one criticism I'll go ahead and toss out against Pruitt. Cut took an OL at least as bad and probably worse than the 2018 OL. He had very little talent at WR (Lucas Taylor, Austin Rogers, and Josh Briscoe were the top 3 receivers). He had one good RB (Foster). IIRC, the Vols scored over 400 pts that year. The much maligned "dink and dunk" kept D's off or Ainge. They gave him mostly simple reads according to what they said at the time. A short lateral passing game opened up running lanes... pass to set up the run. UT ran 54% of the time but most of the throws were less than 10 yards.

So why didn't UT resurrect a version of this O this year? I've criticized JG but surely he could run that? If not and a decision had been made before the season, they probably could have taught it to KC or even Maurer.
Other than the offensive line, the other glaring problem was JG's inability to read defenses pre-snap. Something Ainge was much more adept doing. Ainge spent the time and effort required, by Cut, in the film room, preparing during the week. I truly believe that JG has never had to rely on his mental preparedness to be successful. If he wants to be the QB next season, and be successful, he'd better get his ass in the film room, pronto!
 
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What in The hell are you talking about?

Cut’s line’s in 2006/2007 was stacked. That Oline would trounce our current line in a heartbeat.
Amen. Plus, Ainge put in the time in the film room. Cut required it. No ifs, ands or buts.
Do we possess a deep threat? I don't mean a 50/50 ball deep threat. I mean a catch it on the fly and good-freakin-bye threat? We need one, ASAP.
 

lexkyvol

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his presnap was fine. teams jumped routes due to our poor offensive line issues. the guys comp pct was 62 and some change. add in our wrs were slow and it would def appear to the folk with agendas his presnap was poor. things JG was poor at was 3rd and 4th progressions and check-downs. and after getting hit so much and so often, happy feet. finally losing trust in his o line, just trying to look average
 

sjt18

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his presnap was fine. teams jumped routes due to our poor offensive line issues. the guys comp pct was 62 and some change. add in our wrs were slow and it would def appear to the folk with agendas his presnap was poor. things JG was poor at was 3rd and 4th progressions and check-downs. and after getting hit so much and so often, happy feet. finally losing trust in his o line, just trying to look average
Yeah. It is all someone else's fault, right? The only things he does poorly are things that most CFB QB's do poorly... everyone else just sucks and makes him look bad.:rolleyes:

Stuff like this reinforces the idea that you are just a blind fan of JG.

His pre-snap reads pretty effectively suck as bad as the OL sucked. On MOST plays, Ainge knew where he was throwing the ball pre-snap. On occasion, it made him susceptible to being baited like the INT vs LSU in the SEC CG but the trade off was well worth it.

If you have a problem with that... then rather than arguing with me go back and watch each game and count the number of times he was ready to throw as soon as he took the snap after recognizing coverage or pressure. It was very seldom.
 

BeardedVol

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his presnap was fine. teams jumped routes due to our poor offensive line issues. the guys comp pct was 62 and some change. add in our wrs were slow and it would def appear to the folk with agendas his presnap was poor. things JG was poor at was 3rd and 4th progressions and check-downs. and after getting hit so much and so often, happy feet. finally losing trust in his o line, just trying to look average
JG had a clean pocket 72% of the time according to the final stats; laying JG's faults at the feet of the oline, though they are not great, is just not true.

Sam Ehlinger and Kyle Shurmer both faced similar difficulties behind their olines, feel free to compare their performances to JG's.
 

lexkyvol

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JG had a clean pocket 72% of the time according to the final stats; laying JG's faults at the feet of the oline, though they are not great, is just not true.

Sam Ehlinger and Kyle Shurmer both faced similar difficulties behind their olines, feel free to compare their performances to JG's.
yeah, our killer running game and him getting PLANTED almost every pass is clear-cut evidence of your claim
 

lexkyvol

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Yeah. It is all someone else's fault, right? The only things he does poorly are things that most CFB QB's do poorly... everyone else just sucks and makes him look bad.:rolleyes:

Stuff like this reinforces the idea that you are just a blind fan of JG.

His pre-snap reads pretty effectively suck as bad as the OL sucked. On MOST plays, Ainge knew where he was throwing the ball pre-snap. On occasion, it made him susceptible to being baited like the INT vs LSU in the SEC CG but the trade off was well worth it.

If you have a problem with that... then rather than arguing with me go back and watch each game and count the number of times he was ready to throw as soon as he took the snap after recognizing coverage or pressure. It was very seldom.
so if everybody knew where he was going presnap, how did he manage to complete 62 pct of his passes and set the completion record? maybe everyone on the field were just actors for the performance...
 

sjt18

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so if everybody knew where he was going presnap, how did he manage to complete 62 pct of his passes and set the completion record? maybe everyone on the field were just actors for the performance...
Do you understand what we're talking about when we say "pre-snap reads"? This response strongly suggests that you don't.

Again a challenge. Go back and watch how many plays (assuming you know the difference in what you're seeing) JG completed with no reads involved. WR screens, swings, and routes designed with only one option set up by everyone else.

Those passes he completed back side after semi-rolling away... weren't reads. They were designed to use the receivers, OL, and rollout to create flow then allow JG to turn and either throw to the backside receiver or throw it away. It take special arm talent to make that throw. It doesn't take a lot of mental development.

Another evidence that he's "thinking" during the play is the number of underthrown balls. He's a half count late... it isn't an arm strength problem.

What you won't see is JG reading a coverage and sticking a slant route. You want see him read a blitz and lay the ball out in front of his hot receiver.
 

lexkyvol

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Do you understand what we're talking about when we say "pre-snap reads"? This response strongly suggests that you don't.

Again a challenge. Go back and watch how many plays (assuming you know the difference in what you're seeing) JG completed with no reads involved. WR screens, swings, and routes designed with only one option set up by everyone else.

Those passes he completed back side after semi-rolling away... weren't reads. They were designed to use the receivers, OL, and rollout to create flow then allow JG to turn and either throw to the backside receiver or throw it away. It take special arm talent to make that throw. It doesn't take a lot of mental development.

Another evidence that he's "thinking" during the play is the number of underthrown balls. He's a half count late... it isn't an arm strength problem.

What you won't see is JG reading a coverage and sticking a slant route. You want see him read a blitz and lay the ball out in front of his hot receiver.
i played wr in the spread system so i def know presnap.....prolly more than u and several others do. and a lot of the qbs in college throw presnap. its a hell of a lot more than folk in here think. most OCs call route concepts with a read person. ur hate for him has a lot of excuses for why he was successful. i bet u and others think KC made the right read and audible call on plays in which he had success. boy yalls football knowledge is shot!

go read passing game concept articles, then come back and talk passing football
 

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