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Thunder Good-Oil

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I agree, but our biggest potential flaw (PG) can be a big issue and we just don't know how ZZ is going to handle 32mpg. And if he can't, it gets really hairy behind him because we don't really know what our options are, nor what any potential option can offer with meaningful minutes.

Two-point scoring has been an issue in the past, as well. I think Phillips can help in that department, an improved ON can help, so I'm less concerned there because we have options with either experience or high-level talent/expectation.
The most frustrating things in 2021-22 were the frequent scoring droughts that often extended over two TV time outs. It would be great if Phillips could be a go to scorer when a basket is desperately needed. I hope he’ll be a solid free throw shooter.
 
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bleedingTNorange

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I agree, but our biggest potential flaw (PG) can be a big issue and we just don't know how ZZ is going to handle 32mpg. And if he can't, it gets really hairy behind him because we don't really know what our options are, nor what any potential option can offer with meaningful minutes.

Two-point scoring has been an issue in the past, as well. I think Phillips can help in that department, an improved ON can help, so I'm less concerned there because we have options with either experience or high-level talent/expectation.
I don’t disagree about PG, nobody knows how it will go but he did average 24mpg in conference play so I don’t think expanding that to 30-32mpg is a crazy thought/expectation. I would bet a lot of Top 10-15 teams are probably replacing their starting PG’s, just the nature of it, and I wouldn’t be surprised if many of those are replaced with someone with less experience at this level as Zeigler. The metrics love us because they project improvement of players, and if you say Zeigler is an improved version of himself then I think most folks would say this is a Top 10 team.
 

cncchris33

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I don’t disagree about PG, nobody knows how it will go but he did average 24mpg in conference play so I don’t think expanding that to 30-32mpg is a crazy thought/expectation. I would bet a lot of Top 10-15 teams are probably replacing their starting PG’s, just the nature of it, and I wouldn’t be surprised if many of those are replaced with someone with less experience at this level as Zeigler. The metrics love us because they project improvement of players, and if you say Zeigler is an improved version of himself then I think most folks would say this is a Top 10 team.
Going from 24 to 32 minutes is a 33% increase. That’s significant, and worth noting that he is going from the secondary option to the focus of other teams as the quarterback of our offense. I have faith in him, but I think it is something to consider when projecting us as one of the best 8 teams in the country.

Sure, others in that conversation are replacing players, too. I just think most of them in that conversation are replacing them with blue-chip players. In any case, I’m in wait-and-see mode before putting us higher than top 12-15. I’m probably more cautious by nature than others, but top-8 is elite level. I’m not sure we are there, yet.
 

VolGee4

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Maybe it's too early and I change my mind, but based on a Top 25 write-up I saw recently with every team's rosters and production, I didn't see many teams jump out to me as dominant.
 

bleedingTNorange

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Going from 24 to 32 minutes is a 33% increase. That’s significant, and worth noting that he is going from the secondary option to the focus of other teams as the quarterback of our offense. I have faith in him, but I think it is something to consider when projecting us as one of the best 8 teams in the country.

Sure, others in that conversation are replacing players, too. I just think most of them in that conversation are replacing them with blue-chip players. In any case, I’m in wait-and-see mode before putting us higher than top 12-15. I’m probably more cautious by nature than others, but top-8 is elite level. I’m not sure we are there, yet.
Why would he be going from secondary option to focus of other teams? He was playing 25mpg last year for us in conference play, all of those minutes were at PG, Chandler played as a 2 when Zeigler was in…that will be Vescovi or Key this year, the focus will be on those guys and not any more on Zeigler imo.

I have no problem really with someone saying we are 8 vs. 12, to me that’s not much, if any difference at all.
 
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cncchris33

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Why would he be going from secondary option to focus of other teams? He was playing 25mpg last year for us in conference play, all of those minutes were at PG, Chandler played as a 2 when Zeigler was in…that will be Vescovi or Key this year, the focus will be on those guys and not any more on Zeigler imo.

I have no problem really with someone saying we are 8 vs. 12, to me that’s not much of any difference at all, if any.
Ok. I'm not diving into the most minute detail with you. Chandler was there to help relieve the pressure and we had two PGs on the floor for most of those minutes. We don't have that other guy this year, and especially not someone as talented as Chandler. ZZ has to prove he can shoulder the load for 33% more minutes and across an entire season. I'm not saying he can't do it. I just think that it's a question that needs to be answered before I push them in my top 8. You don't have to agree with that. It's totally fine if you don't. Agree to disagree.
 

bleedingTNorange

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Ok. I'm not diving into the most minute detail with you. Chandler was there to help relieve the pressure and we had two PGs on the floor for most of those minutes. We don't have that other guy this year, and especially not someone as talented as Chandler. ZZ has to prove he can shoulder the load for 33% more minutes and across an entire season. I'm not saying he can't do it. I just think that it's a question that needs to be answered before I push them in my top 8. You don't have to agree with that. It's totally fine if you don't. Agree to disagree.
I said I agreed it’s a question that needs answered, I’m just not sure most others don’t have similar/bigger questions marks as well…all I was saying.
 

bleedingTNorange

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I get your point but Santi and JJJ have proven to be solid rebounders. More than willing to battle inside. I bet Key can based on his strength. Would be fun against teams without a strong rebounding big.
They definitely do well as guards, but against a big man I would worry…but yea, without a strong rebounding big or against the low major/mid major types it would be fun to watch for sure.
 

bleedingTNorange

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Is there a place to see Santi’s stats with KC on the floor and without?
This suggests same essentially, but I don’t think this specifies just 1 of Chandler or Zeigler being on the court. It’s Evan Miya’s website if you wanna check it out
 

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bleedingTNorange

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Got total faith in JJJ, Phillips, and Key getting a rebound.

Key reminds me of Armani Moore. Thick bodied dudes.
I’ll have to see that to believe it, Moore was still only like a 5rpg kinda guy…as others said that could work against some smaller teams, but damn sure ain’t working against a guy like Oscar or other big bodies like that imo.
 

cncchris33

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I’ll have to see that to believe it, Moore was still only like a 5rpg kinda guy…as others said that could work against some smaller teams, but damn sure ain’t working against a guy like Oscar or other big bodies like that imo.
Armani Moore averaged 6.8 and 7.6 rpg in his final two seasons, where he primarily played as an undersized PF, leading the team in rebounding both seasons. It's also the only two seasons he in which he averaged over 13 mpg. His rebounds per 40 mins and per 100 possessions were pretty consistent across his 4 seasons, indicating that with more playing time, he would have been a fairly effective rebounder early in his career, as well, even for his size.
 

bleedingTNorange

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Armani Moore averaged 6.8 and 7.6 rpg in his final two seasons, where he primarily played as an undersized PF, leading the team in rebounding both seasons. It's also the only two seasons he in which he averaged over 13 mpg. His rebounds per 40 mins and per 100 possessions were pretty consistent across his 4 seasons, indicating that with more playing time, he would have been a fairly effective rebounder early in his career, as well, even for his size.
I must have been looking at wrong statistical category or year then, that’s my bad…with that said, I don’t recall him playing much 5 and wouldn’t be very confident with him as our 5 on their team, as I recall we weren’t very good when he was getting big minutes.
 

MoCo_Vol

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If Key is anywhere near the player Armani was then we're going to be in the top 15 all season.

It's not the best option having Santi or JJJ run point, but at least they could do it for a few minutes if ZZ needs a rest. Hopefully though BJE is this year's ZZ and can play 22-25 MPG while also running the point.

I'm just hoping we see better interior rebounding and scoring with ORN healthy and Aidoo/Uros having more experience under their belts.
 
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