The "depth" argument

[chattavol420]

So in an effort to be objective and not simply post an opinion...I want to say here's why I don't buy the depth argument (which is butchs excuse for everything). All of our come from behind losses this seasons have been similar. Our team comes out ready to play and establish a lead. But Butch ultimately chooses to go into prevent mode wayyyyy too early. That means we only call safe run plays, as opposed to trying to call the best play based on what the defense is doing. The opposing defenses have loaded the box knowing they'll get a quick three and out and we've been content with allowing this to happen.
So what happens is that from the middle of the third quarter on, our defense is constantly out on the field. Eventually they get gassed for a couple of big plays. Also, the defensive calls are conservative. As opposed to bringing pressure on obvious passing downs we play a prevent type defense. It would seem as though the staff would understand that the defense has been on the field for a long time and that pressure on obviously passing downs would be the right call but it hasn't happened.
Afterward Butch will always say yall saw it...we don't have the defensive depth when we get late in the games.
But no team has enough defensive depth to leave them out there the entire second half.
Next season we won't have vareen, Owen Williams, Randolph, McNeil, and potential sutton and jrm. We are not going to have more depth next year on defense. But next year (like this season) we will have enough talent to win all our games. The games just have to be managed properly

 

[utvolpj]

How many times are you going to post the exact same ****ing opinion ?

You think he's conservative. We get it

 

[ReaderVol]

How many times are you going to post the exact same ****ing opinion ?

You think he's conservative. We get it

Cut and paste my friend. Cut and paste.

 

[chattavol420]

How many times are you going to post the exact same ****ing thing?

It's different. I'm just discussing the depth issue. It's not going to get better unless the strategy a change. Try refuting the argument as opposed to saying you suck. Negavol. Bla bla

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Well, that's not based on facts, so it's not objective as you might think.

If you'll watch the Oklahoma and Florida games again...particularly the 4th Qtrs of both...you'll see that the play calling was not "safe run plays." The play calling was just as aggressive a mix of downfield passes, short passes to the flats and slants, screens, runs, and draws as it was earlier in the game. The execution simply devolved as time went on.

Don't take my word for it. Go watch again. Don't trust the box score play-by-play write-up, it'll mislead you. For instance, Josh drops back to pass, is immediately flushed out of the pocket and scrambles for a 1-yard gain, that counts as a "run" play even though the coaches dialed up a pass. That's execution breakdown, not conservative play calling.

Go watch again. You'll see. [or find the VN threads from the weeks after those games that analyze all this in detail, the community has been through this before]

 

[jakez4ut]

i find it amusing that folks on either side of this deal can't acknowledge that the reality is that it's all part of it.

we aren't deep on DL, OL, WR, QB or RB. injuries on the LOS and in the secondary and WR have thinned us out a great deal. that has been a contributing factor to our late game collapses on defense.

also a contributing factor, we aren't coaching around that enough to protect our defense. we don't seem to be making the right adjustments to counter our opponents. we have coached not to lose late in 1st half and end of games. this is a contributing factor as well.

and lastly, we've a bunch of guys simply not make plays when they were given the opportunity. Medley several times. Preston Willams w/a big fumble against ARK, we've had dropped TD passes, more than a few dropped interceptions, a gaggle of missed tackles in key spots on multiple 4th down conversions.

folks, we can go back and forth (obviously we've prove that already) on this as much as you want.

all of these issues have contributed to why we've lost those games this year.

 

[chattavol420]

Well, that's not based on facts, so it's not objective as you might think.

If you'll watch the Oklahoma and Florida games again...particularly the 4th Qtrs of both...you'll see that the play calling was not "safe run plays." The play calling was just as aggressive a mix of downfield passes, short passes to the flats and slants, screens, runs, and draws as it was earlier in the game. The execution simply devolved as time went on.

Don't take my word for it. Go watch again. Don't trust the box score play-by-play write-up, it'll mislead you. For instance, Josh drops back to pass, is immediately flushed out of the pocket and scrambles for a 1-yard gain, that counts as a "run" play even though the coaches dialed up a pass. That's execution breakdown, not conservative play calling.

Go watch again. You'll see. [or find the VN threads from the weeks after those games that analyze all this in detail, the community has been through this before]

That's not true. The last couple of offensive drives (prior to losing the lead) we had multiple three straight runs into a loaded box).
The point is if the offense doesn't help the defense get off the he field we are never going to have enough depth. And it's going to get worse next season, not better

 

[Vols_Domination32]

The depth issue is a real problem.

As far as after halftime what I have seen:
People expect us to come out after halftime with new game plans? We have been in the lead and controlling the game every game going into halftime, how do you make adjustments when pretty much everything is working?
- What I really see is we come out and either don't execute well or Dobbs is not checking out of bad play calls leading us to be either no gain or loss of yards on first downs which normally spirals into 3rd and long situations on our first couple of drives coming out of half time.
- I believe most teams this year come out of the 2nd half and just start run blitzing us forcing Dobbs to throw and make quick reads which does not appear to be his strength. I believe Dobbs is the kind of QB that wants to see the guy be open before throwing the ball and needs to work on throwing people open and/or throwing with more anticipation/timing.

 

[utvolpj]

It's different. I'm just discussing the depth issue. It's not going to get better unless the strategy a change. Try refuting the argument as opposed to saying you suck. Negavol. Bla bla

No it's the same as the rest of the threads you attempt to pass off as different. I'd refute your argument if a coherent one was presented. Until then this is all you'll get

 

[feathersax]

Like bad guacamole...he's BAAAACK!

 

[VFL-82-JP]

That's not true. The last couple of offensive drives (prior to losing the lead) we had multiple three straight runs into a loaded box).
The point is if the offense doesn't help the defense get off the he field we are never going to have enough depth. And it's going to get worse next season, not better

Go watch OK and FL 4th Qtrs again. Out of all those series, iirc only one was 3 runs and a punt. All the others were a good mix of play calls.

Go watch it again. You'll see.

 

[volinbama256]

We will still have Vereen, JRM, and possibly Sutton.

 

[jakez4ut]

Go watch OK and FL 4th Qtrs again. Out of all those series, iirc only one was 3 runs and a punt. All the others were a good mix of play calls.

Go watch it again. You'll see.

that 2nd to last possession against florida was unforgivable. that's the one i have the issue with.

it was like we didn't know what to do, so we did nothing.

i looked at my dad and said "i can't defend that series.". it was garbage.

we did the same thing at the end of the half against ARK and Bama. had Hurd not gotten that big run, we were going to run the half out.

this staff does go tight in those situations. they absolutely must figure out a way manufacture 1st downs in those situations.

riding the clock doesn't work.

 

[BenGrimm]

Have you seen our injury report. It's going to be a challenge to rest guys as much as we would like to this week.

 

[chattavol420]

We will still have Vereen, JRM, and possibly Sutton.

I thought vareen was a senior. And I'd guess sutton is gone. I hope jrm is back but he could go too

 

[KingtUT]

So in an effort to be objective and not simply post an opinion...I want to say here's why I don't buy the depth argument (which is butchs excuse for everything). All of our come from behind losses this seasons have been similar. Our team comes out ready to play and establish a lead. But Butch ultimately chooses to go into prevent mode wayyyyy too early. That means we only call safe run plays, as opposed to trying to call the best play based on what the defense is doing. The opposing defenses have loaded the box knowing they'll get a quick three and out and we've been content with allowing this to happen.
So what happens is that from the middle of the third quarter on, our defense is constantly out on the field. Eventually they get gassed for a couple of big plays. Also, the defensive calls are conservative. As opposed to bringing pressure on obvious passing downs we play a prevent type defense. It would seem as though the staff would understand that the defense has been on the field for a long time and that pressure on obviously passing downs would be the right call but it hasn't happened.
Afterward Butch will always say yall saw it...we don't have the defensive depth when we get late in the games.
But no team has enough defensive depth to leave them out there the entire second half.
Next season we won't have vareen, Owen Williams, Randolph, McNeil, and potential sutton and jrm. We are not going to have more depth next year on defense. But next year (like this season) we will have enough talent to win all our games. The games just have to be managed properly

So basically what youre saying is.....ljhdweuijjyh2wo4od3oidh3ohd3h3oih4d3oi4jho3idhjo3ixnn3nx3!

Thanks.

 

[Hacksaw]

Seeing "depth" in quotation marks suggests to me that some fans just doesn't want to acknowledge reality. The depth issues are real. I don't like accepting losses, even when there is a reason for it. But there's no denying the reality of our situation.

 

[volinbama256]

i find it amusing that folks on either side of this deal can't acknowledge that the reality is that it's all part of it.

we aren't deep on DL, OL, WR, QB or RB. injuries on the LOS and in the secondary and WR have thinned us out a great deal. that has been a contributing factor to our late game collapses on defense.

also a contributing factor, we aren't coaching around that enough to protect our defense. we don't seem to be making the right adjustments to counter our opponents. we have coached not to lose late in 1st half and end of games. this is a contributing factor as well.

and lastly, we've a bunch of guys simply not make plays when they were given the opportunity. Medley several times. Preston Willams w/a big fumble against ARK, we've had dropped TD passes, more than a few dropped interceptions, a gaggle of missed tackles in key spots on multiple 4th down conversions.

folks, we can go back and forth (obviously we've prove that already) on this as much as you want.

all of these issues have contributed to why we've lost those games this year.

Agree, its a combination of all of this unfortunately. If one of these factors was off the table, we would more than likely have one or more W's.... all of this together is like a perfect storm and based on these factors, we should be happy with the record we most likely will finish with. And Kyle Phillips goes down this week for the season.... at this rate it will be interesting who we have left that can take the field in the bowl game! :unsure:

 

[VFL-82-JP]

that 2nd to last possession against florida was unforgivable. that's the one i have the issue with.

it was like we didn't know what to do, so we did nothing.

Yep, that was the one. The only series with 3 runs and a punt.

Our loss to Florida wasn't about conservative play calling. Even that series is somewhat understandable if you're objective, and remember how the game was flowing. Why? Because Jalen was running through Florida's D like a hot knife through butter the previous series when we scored the TD at about 10min left in the game...so I could see DeBord wanting to go back to his "hot hand."

Anyway, whether you call that "going conservative" or not, the Florida loss wasn't about that one series. It was about Florida 4th & 7, then 4th & 8, then 4th & 14...for two TDs.

Then, at the very end, it was about a nice drive down the field capped off by a missed FG from 55 yards out.

Not conservative at all. Watch it again, OP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aU1uuokXiQ

 

[terrypedigo]

No Team in the SEC will win all there game's if you can go 10 and 2 and every now and then 11 and 1 be happy the days of running the table are over in this League with the East top 3 getting better the winner of the SEC will have 2 Losses in the future, this is by far the toughest League in the country in the 90s it was only Tennessee and the Gators the West often had a 3 loose team, so in the future if you only can get in the playoffs with a 1 loose team the Sec will be left out unless they take a 2 loose SEC TEAM over a 1 loose Power 5 conference team.

 

[08Vol]

that 2nd to last possession against florida was unforgivable. that's the one i have the issue with.

it was like we didn't know what to do, so we did nothing.

i looked at my dad and said "i can't defend that series.". it was garbage.

we did the same thing at the end of the half against ARK and Bama. had Hurd not gotten that big run, we were going to run the half out.

this staff does go tight in those situations. they absolutely must figure out a way manufacture 1st downs in those situations.

riding the clock doesn't work.

At the end of the half against AR and UA our coaches looked like they were shocked we were close so they went super conservative. Same thing happened against Mizzou last year. It's a coaching weakness and one that will not change under this staff

 

[MedicT]

So in an effort to be objective and not simply post an opinion...I want to say here's why I don't buy the depth argument (which is butchs excuse for everything). All of our come from behind losses this seasons have been similar. Our team comes out ready to play and establish a lead. But Butch ultimately chooses to go into prevent mode wayyyyy too early. That means we only call safe run plays, as opposed to trying to call the best play based on what the defense is doing. The opposing defenses have loaded the box knowing they'll get a quick three and out and we've been content with allowing this to happen.
So what happens is that from the middle of the third quarter on, our defense is constantly out on the field. Eventually they get gassed for a couple of big plays. Also, the defensive calls are conservative. As opposed to bringing pressure on obvious passing downs we play a prevent type defense. It would seem as though the staff would understand that the defense has been on the field for a long time and that pressure on obviously passing downs would be the right call but it hasn't happened.
Afterward Butch will always say yall saw it...we don't have the defensive depth when we get late in the games.
But no team has enough defensive depth to leave them out there the entire second half.
Next season we won't have vareen, Owen Williams, Randolph, McNeil, and potential sutton and jrm. We are not going to have more depth next year on defense. But next year (like this season) we will have enough talent to win all our games. The games just have to be managed properly

.......and the band played on.:crazy::lolabove:

 

[ReaderVol]

Go watch OK and FL 4th Qtrs again. Out of all those series, iirc only one was 3 runs and a punt. All the others were a good mix of play calls.

Go watch it again. You'll see.

JP he knows this. The play chart was put in a thread to prove these guys were wrong. It doesn't matter.

 

[butchna]

I thought vareen was a senior. And I'd guess sutton is gone. I hope jrm is back but he could go too

Vereen's a junior...same class as Sutton and JRM.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

JP he knows this. The play chart was put in a thread to prove these guys were wrong. It doesn't matter.

Heh, I know, I'm one of the guys who assembled those play charts after those games.