Texas, 'He Is Lying. People Are Dying'

Carl Pickens

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A large number of peep on this forum divert from reasoned facts by throwing out one line attacks which did not fit at all. They parrot the same old lines while accusing the other person of parroting. My impression is that they live in a one dimensional world of scripted thought, half truths, and out right lies.
Have you researched this?
 

NorthDallas40

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Which is why I think that what happened was terrible, but it doesn’t make sense to me that you change everything based off of 2 back to back freak winter storms that most likely won’t happen again for a hundred years.
Most actual industry professionals without an agenda (pimping green energy) are saying why don’t we get the data once the crisis is past, analyze it, and draw rational conclusions on corrective action. But that’s no where near as fun as saying “but northern states winterize their wind power” over and over and ... 🙄
 

RDU VOL#14

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Most actual industry professionals without an agenda (pimping green energy) are saying why don’t we get the data once the crisis is past, analyze it, and draw rational conclusions on corrective action. But that’s no where near as fun as saying “but northern states winterize their wind power” over and over and ... 🙄
It’s absurd. If it were any other state that didn’t seem vulnerable to turning blue nobody would give a $hit. But because it’s Texas and there has been a little shift the entire world cares more about Ted taking a trip to Cancun than Cuomo making huge mistakes that cost many people’s lives. Never waste a good crisis.
 

ButchPlz

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It’s absurd. If it were any other state that didn’t seem vulnerable to turning blue nobody would give a $hit. But because it’s Texas and there has been a little shift the entire world cares more about Ted taking a trip to Cancun than Cuomo making huge mistakes that cost many people’s lives. Never waste a good crisis.
Don't let yourself be gaslighted by the media. They don't represent most people.
 

NorthDallas40

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I know, it was an exaggeration. Cruz should’ve known better too, but the fact that I keep seeing stuff on my timeline about it is ridiculous.
Many of my fellow Texans, from both sides of the aisle, have expressed their desire to tell their well meaning friends to STFU on the “why didn’t you guys winterize your wind power” and give us some time to see what the data says happened. Seriously thanks but no thanks.

But I gotta admit we’re all laughing at Cruz’s overt mea culpa too. Some of us, mostly from one side of the aisle, are irritated at the distraction it clearly provides.
 

overseasorange2

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So we're third world if large trees fell over from a hurricane and took the power lines with them? Interesting
If you watched the national news every once in awhile, you would know that most people think it was gross negligence on the part of Epcot. A similar freeze occurred 10 years ago, and recommendations were made to fix the problem. Nobody did a damn thing about it.;);)
 
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AM64

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Which is why I think that what happened was terrible, but it doesn’t make sense to me that you change everything based off of 2 back to back freak winter storms that most likely won’t happen again for a hundred years.
What you are saying makes complete sense if it is a decision you make for your own welfare. You know the risks and you make a decision accordingly. The problem isn't so much whether an amateur utility decides to winterize or not, but whether the amateurs making a quick easy buck on the backs of the real utilities are honest enough to let customers know the risk they take in buying from them vs the real guys. It's actually the reason we have some regulated industries in the first place; a lot of corporate types can't be bothered with costly responsibilities when there's money to be made.

It's a part of when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine or the gas doesn't move, is there reliable generation available; and are the amateur solar, wind, and NG electric producers who don't see the need for being hardened going to pay increased costs they make for fossil and nuclear utilities?
 
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LouderVol

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What you are saying makes complete sense if it is a decision you make for your own welfare. You know the risks and you make a decision accordingly. The problem isn't so much whether an amateur utility decides to winterize or not, but whether the amateurs making a quick easy buck on the backs of the real utilities are honest enough to let customers know the risk they take in buying from them vs the real guys. It's actually the reason we have some regulated industries in the first place; a lot of corporate types can't be bothered with costly responsibilities when there's money to be made.

It's a part of when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine or the gas doesn't move, is there reliable generation available; and are the amateur solar, wind, and NG electric producers who don't see the need for being hardened going to pay increased costs they make for fossil and nuclear utilities?
Unless the little guys are monkeying with process when they are lower I dont see why it's wrong to have this swing.

These people were able to pay lower prices most of the time. Now they get dinged incredibly hard for the risk they were profiting from otherwise.

It's like the gamestop stocks. The rich were fine with it, when it was in their favor. Then when it wasnt they want the rules changed so they dont pay the price for their own choice. Same here, just with everyone.

Any crisis is going to have this issue of potential price rises, so it's not like this was a completely unforeseen possibility.
 
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AM64

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Unless the little guys are monkeying with process when they are lower I dont see why it's wrong to have this swing.

These people were able to pay lower prices most of the time. Now they get dinged incredibly hard for the risk they were profiting from otherwise.

It's like the gamestop stocks. The rich were fine with it, when it was in their favor. Then when it wasnt they want the rules changed so they dont pay the price for their own choice. Same here, just with everyone.

Any crisis is going to have this issue of potential price rises, so it's not like this was a completely unforeseen possibility.
Gambles are fine if the gambler understands, and that is largely on the gambler to be informed. When the gamble is a matter of life and death - power in frigid weather or a first rate airline vs a cute rate carrier - the game isn't to withhold the risks from the consumer; and that seems to be what a lot of the NG power generators were doing. The airline industry is regulated - planes get inspected, and companies cutting corners pay the risks. TX has a high influx of people faced with power choices from a marginally regulated industry; how many of those people have a real clue about the gamble they take in selecting option A over option B?
 

LouderVol

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Gambles are fine if the gambler understands, and that is largely on the gambler to be informed. When the gamble is a matter of life and death - power in frigid weather or a first rate airline vs a cute rate carrier - the game isn't to withhold the risks from the consumer; and that seems to be what a lot of the NG power generators were doing. The airline industry is regulated - planes get inspected, and companies cutting corners pay the risks. TX has a high influx of people faced with power choices from a marginally regulated industry; how many of those people have a real clue about the gamble they take in selecting option A over option B?
Same as kids choosing to go to college with massive loans, or kids signing up for the military.

As you said they gambled, and only took issue with the gamble when they lost.
 

AM64

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Not a fan of the left or economists, but I think James K. Galbraith got this pretty much right

The Texas system had three vulnerabilities, according to his commentary:
  1. Competition to provide power in the cheapest way possible meant that machinery was not well-enough insulated against extreme cold;
  2. Wholesale prices could fluctuate while retail prices depended on consumer contracts;
  3. And prices would rise when demand for power was the greatest.
One of Texas' most prominent left-leaning economists knows exactly why its power grid failed

The Wall Street Journal points out

Those deregulated Texas residential consumers paid $28 billion more for their power since 2004 than they would have paid at the rates charged to the customers of the state’s traditional utilities, according to the Journal’s analysis of data from the federal Energy Information Administration.
Texas Electric Bills Were $28 Billion Higher Under Deregulation

Utilities are one of the things that need to be regulated.
 

LouderVol

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NorthDallas40

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So in Texas consumers had the choice to stay with a traditional utility or go with a broker?
No. We cannot buy energy direct from the energy provider, the one who controls the grid. All energy providers to the public are resellers.

For example in our part of TX the grid is owned by ONCOR. I think various private companies can own generation that attached to that grid which they sell to the resellers. We buy our energy from TXU Energy.

For natural gas we buy our energy from ATMOS. I have no idea if they are involved in the pipelines or not. But I do know there are various producers that feed the distribution which I think is fairly common in that industry.
 
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hog88

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No. We cannot buy energy direct from the energy provider, the one who controls the grid. All energy providers to the public are resellers.

For example in our part of TX the grid is owned by ONCOR. I think various private companies can own generation that attached to that grid which they sell to the resellers. We buy our energy from TXU Energy.

For natural gas we buy our energy from ATMOS. I have no idea if they are involved in the pipelines or not. But I do know there are various producers that feed the distribution which I think is fairly common in that industry.
Ok, sounds pretty standard then. At the house we get our electricity from from a co-op who buys it from TVA but I don't have to worry about a spike in prices from one month to the next. How did that come into play?
 
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NorthDallas40

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Ok, sounds pretty standard then. At the house we get our electricity from from a co-op who buys it from TVA but I don't have to worry about a spike in prices from one month to the next. How did that come into play?
So a few of the resellers business model uses wholesale “spot” pricing. You pay a small flat monthly fee and then your energy cost floats with daily pricing. TXU uses contracts with the providers and even though we are variable rate we don’t have these crazy fluctuations.

It might be the same as your co-op. When you have an outage who do you call TVA or the co-op? Here I don’t get billed by ONCOR but they are who I call when my power goes out. The linemen work for ONCOR. Kinda stupid.
 
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hog88

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So a few of the resellers business model uses wholesale “spot” pricing. You pay a small flat monthly fee and then your energy cost floats with daily pricing. TXU uses contracts with the providers and even though we are variable rate we don’t have these crazy fluctuations.

It might be the same as your co-op. When you have an outage who do you call TVA or the co-op? Here I don’t get billed by ONCOR but they are who I call when my power goes out. The linemen work for ONCOR. Kinda stupid.
I would call the co-op but my $ per KWH isn't variable. It's constant and we are notified in advance (at least 30 days) of any increase.
 

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