Orangeslice13, a blessing to those around him…..Again

[GVF]

It should also be noted that Matthew 12:31-32 references TWO blasphemies. One is against man and the Son of Man, and is forgivable. The other is against the Holy Spirit, which is not forgivable. Taking note of that and applying to what is said in Hebrews 6, I still think Hebrews 6 is referring to a turn against the Holy Spirit, which to me still holds up Hebrews 6 as credible.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Also, your use of john 10 says "His Sheep." Sheep are followers. They go where you lead them. Now, a sheep can wander off (sin), but can be brought back to the herd (group of believers) through grace. But, a sheep that no longer is a sheep (blasphemer), has left the flock and has denounced the flock and the shepherd. And will be devoured by the wolves.

Messiah is clear. He doesn’t lose any.

 

[Orangeslice13]

It should also be noted that Matthew 12:31-32 references TWO blasphemies. One is against man and the Son of Man, and is forgivable. The other is against the Holy Spirit, which is not forgivable. Taking note of that and applying to what is said in Hebrews 6, I still think Hebrews 6 is referring to a turn against the Holy Spirit, which to me still holds up Hebrews 6 as credible.

I respect your stance. But after some time on it today we are not likely to agree on it as it applies to Hebrews. Which is ok. Spot on in relation to blasphemy

 

[GVF]

Messiah is clear. He doesn’t lose any.

He may not lose them, but he is a free will God, and one can leave or never come on board at all. We are not robots. We are not forced to follow. It has to be a choice.

 

[Orangeslice13]

See my secondary post with blasphemy verses as to why I interpret Hebrews 6 as I do.

However, I do believe a person saved can be in God, and for unforeseen life experiences allow Satan into their hearts to the point that they turn and curse God and the Spirit, losing salvation. See the fallen angel that was cast to hell. I think verses on blasphemy pertain to the saved and unsaved alike. however, a person that curses God, yet has not know him in salvation yet, can be saved (see Paul). Because losing salvation pertains to one who has tasted God, yet in turn rejected him. See Paul.

As far as when salvation occurs, many do believe that they first received salvation, then were baptized later as an act of obedience because Jesus was baptized, etc. I'm on the fence on this sort of. If you were baptized for remission of sin and to receive the gift of God as I was also, should it be a stumbling block to me, or a point of contention between us, if you believe you were saved before immersion, and I believe I was saved at immersion when we both completed the full act. (believing, repenting, immersion). Personally, I believe Salvation is a gift bestowed by God upon the realization you need to and respond to it in completion. How can one come to believe and not see the need to be baptized and say they are saved. The whole premise of belief, repentance, and baptism is a complete act of obedience. It cannot be accomplished in part. And every example I find in the NT, says that when people heard and believed, they immediately went down to the water. We this this multiple times. Therefore, I see salvation as a one step process where all realization comes together at one point and you are then baptized. (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, John 3:22, Rom 6:3-4). Now concerning receiving the holy Ghost, I find that it was received by believers when they were baptized as well as immediately prior upon believing as they were to be baptized. Again, why I contend that salvation is a process whereas everything falls into a bucket at one time and is not spread out over a sequence of buckets. (Jn 3:15, Acts 2:38, 1Cor 12:13, Mk 1:8, Acts 8:15-17, Titus 3: 5-6, Acts 10:44-47). But, in all instances I see where baptism occurred upon believing and they went into the water, all at that point of convergence.

We will not likely agree on baptism as a requirement and again that’s ok, but it might be because we come from a different place of belief.

It is my contention that people were saved by faith in the exact same way before and after Messiah. We also likely view Torah very differently.

Many seem to think.....and I would say most....that the death, burial and reserection of Messiah ended the law. I find that to be odd as Messiah said that nothing passes from the law till heaven and earth pass away. The line “Messiah fulfilled the law” gets thrown around a lot but that’s what Jesus/Yeshua said he was here to do. He immediately clarified that it wouldn’t mean it’s end.

The way most Christians believe seems odd to me
For example if you (someone) committed a crime and was convicted. Then they were told someone else has paid your penalty and you are free to go. Those people then leave but on their way out are told “oh, by the way...it’s not a crime anymore so feel free to do it again”. I know that’s not exciting how most view what happened but for some reason everyone seems to think that the rules/definition of sin has changed and I see no support for such a concept. On the contrary Paul, James John and others address the law as being the definition of sin. Yet none say that it’s over.
even Paul is clear that it’s the punishment that’s done away with.

Romans 8.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


vs 1 ...no condemnation for those in Union with Messiah.
Vs 1 and 3 we are weak and carnal without Messiah. With Messiah we are of the spirit.
Vs7. Those carnal can’t submit themselves to the law of G-d.

once again I tell you all that ^^^^^^to say this.
it’s my contention that baptism is a part of Torah. In Torah it’s a method for new beginnings. John baptised in the desert after people repented and even baptized Messiah as Messiah began his ministry. Baptism is absolutely the first step of the believer but it’s just that. The first step. But like the rest of the things you do in service of G-d it doesn’t save you (generally, not you specifically) in my opinion

like I said not likely to agree but that’s ok

 

[GVF]

I respect your stance. But after some time on it today we are not likely to agree on it as it applies to Hebrews. Which is ok. Spot on in relation to blasphemy

It is a passage written with some obscurity. Structured much like a parable. It is bound to have more than one interpretation.

 

[Orangeslice13]

He may not lose them, but he is a free will God, and one can leave or never come on board at all. We are not robots. We are not forced to follow. It has to be a choice.

Truth.
But G-d who knows the end from the beginning and Messiah says he doesn’t lose any. It’s not an infringement of free will for G-d to know and tell Messiah that no sheep will be lost.

 

[Orangeslice13]

He may not lose them, but he is a free will God, and one can leave or never come on board at all. We are not robots. We are not forced to follow. It has to be a choice.

Here’s an interesting question for later. not to change subjects....but....
.how do we define free will?
Can we have free will without sin?
Will there be sin after the resurrection?
Will we have free will after the resurrection?

 

[GVF]

We will not likely agree on baptism as a requirement and again that’s ok, but it might be because we come from a different place of belief.

It is my contention that people were saved by faith in the exact same way before and after Messiah. We also likely view Torah very differently.

Many seem to think.....and I would say most....that the death, burial and reserection of Messiah ended the law. I find that to be odd as Messiah said that nothing passes from the law till heaven and earth pass away. The line “Messiah fulfilled the law” gets thrown around a lot but that’s what Jesus/Yeshua said he was here to do. He immediately clarified that it wouldn’t mean it’s end.

The way most Christians believe seems odd to me
For example if you (someone) committed a crime and was convicted. Then they were told someone else has paid your penalty and you are free to go. Those people then leave but on their way out are told “oh, by the way...it’s not a crime anymore so feel free to do it again”. I know that’s not exciting how most view what happened but for some reason everyone seems to think that the rules/definition of sin has changed and I see no support for such a concept. On the contrary Paul, James John and others address the law as being the definition of sin. Yet none say that it’s over.
even Paul is clear that it’s the punishment that’s done away with.

Romans 8.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


vs 1 ...no condemnation for those in Union with Messiah.
Vs 1 and 3 we are weak and carnal without Messiah. With Messiah we are of the spirit.
Vs7. Those carnal can’t submit themselves to the law of G-d.

once again I tell you all that ^^^^^^to say this.
it’s my contention that baptism is a part of Torah. In Torah it’s a method for new beginnings. John baptised in the desert after people repented and even baptized Messiah as Messiah began his ministry. Baptism is absolutely the first step of the believer but it’s just that. The first step. But like the rest of the things you do in service of G-d it doesn’t save you (generally, not you specifically) in my opinion

like I said not likely to agree but that’s ok

I don't think we are terribly far off on baptism. There are some semantics. If I'm reading you correctly you do think you can be saved before baptism through faith, where I think that faith takes you immediately to baptism, and all acts of obedience for salvation come together simultaneously. How can one have faith and delay baptism. How can one be baptized and not have faith. They are Siamese twins the way I see it. Can't have one without the other.

Hebrews 7-9 goes into great detail the difference in the old law and new law, and if the old law had been perfect there would be no need for the new law. Before Christ, salvation came through offerings, and rolling sins back. After Christ, sins are covered through his blood, and we are baptized into that cleansing. The old law, salvation was acquired through deeds. Under the new law it through acts of faith, which you hint at further down.

What I highlighted. I believe Baptism does save you, but it is a culmination of belief, repentance and obedience that come together whereby that baptism does save you. Without it your obedience is incomplete. That's why I believe they are intertwined. What if you got baptized because your friends did but you never really had faith? What if you decided last week you have faith and are therefore save but never got baptized? What of the scripture that says do "these" things and you shall be saved? Spot on that these things in and of themselves do not save. Only the grace of God can save. The things we do, our works cannot save. They are things we should do in our Christian life, but we can only be saved through the grace.

Are you a heavily Jewish background. Just a point of interest and curiosity. You don't spell out God. You refer to Messiah, not Jesus, but scripture uses both, and others. You hold to Torah (which I know little about), yet your kids go to a CoC school. Interesting blend of faiths. What little I know about being messianic as you said earlier you were, is that is Jewish based faith but will talk about Jesus. Which an Orthodox won't. So, I'm just curious if Messianic is a blend of Jewish and Christian belief.

 

[GVF]

Truth.
But G-d who knows the end from the beginning and Messiah says he doesn’t lose any. It’s not an infringement of free will for G-d to know and tell Messiah that no sheep will be lost.

True. He is all knowing. And he will not lose any, because he already knows who will be with him at the end of the journey. He knew our entire life before we entered our mothers womb. Those that do leave were never counted because he already knew.

 

[GVF]

Here’s an interesting question for later. not to change subjects....but....
.how do we define free will?
Can we have free will without sin?
Will there be sin after the resurrection?
Will we have free will after the resurrection?

Just a quick jab, and we will differ a bit here, because I believe Messiah has already arrived, crucified, and ressurrected.

What you refer to as resurrection, I refer to as the second coming.

Free Will- the will to choose to follow God, or not follow God.

Free will without sin - not possible. we were made to sin and be dependent on God/Messiah for cleansing and salvation.

Sin after resurrection (being called to heaven ??)- No IMO. We have already made our journey. We will be rejoicing to God in heaven infinitely. We will have received our reward and been made perfect. (I know there is a counter point there, but I'll leave that to you. Make it interesting).

Free Will after resurrection - Again, I'd go with no based on some passages in Revelation. And in my human brain of reasoning by free will, we chose God. Our reward is to be with him eternally in heaven. We have no more use for free will.

 

[GVF]

I respect your stance. But after some time on it today we are not likely to agree on it as it applies to Hebrews. Which is ok. Spot on in relation to blasphemy

That second, unforgivable blasphemy is the one that can prevent/cause the loss of salvation. It can happen, but one would have to have a monumental turn away from God to the point they cursed and denied Him and the Spirit.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I don't think we are terribly far off on baptism. There are some semantics. If I'm reading you correctly you do think you can be saved before baptism through faith, where I think that faith takes you immediately to baptism, and all acts of obedience for salvation come together simultaneously. How can one have faith and delay baptism. How can one be baptized and not have faith. They are Siamese twins the way I see it. Can't have one without the other.

Hebrews 7-9 goes into great detail the difference in the old law and new law, and if the old law had been perfect there would be no need for the new law. Before Christ, salvation came through offerings, and rolling sins back. After Christ, sins are covered through his blood, and we are baptized into that cleansing. The old law, salvation was acquired through deeds. Under the new law it through acts of faith, which you hint at further down.

What I highlighted. I believe Baptism does save you, but it is a culmination of belief, repentance and obedience that come together whereby that baptism does save you. Without it your obedience is incomplete. That's why I believe they are intertwined. What if you got baptized because your friends did but you never really had faith? What if you decided last week you have faith and are therefore save but never got baptized? What of the scripture that says do "these" things and you shall be saved? Spot on that these things in and of themselves do not save. Only the grace of God can save. The things we do, our works cannot save. They are things we should do in our Christian life, but we can only be saved through the grace.

Are you a heavily Jewish background. Just a point of interest and curiosity. You don't spell out God. You refer to Messiah, not Jesus, but scripture uses both, and others. You hold to Torah (which I know little about), yet your kids go to a CoC school. Interesting blend of faiths. What little I know about being messianic as you said earlier you were, is that is Jewish based faith but will talk about Jesus. Which an Orthodox won't. So, I'm just curious if Messianic is a blend of Jewish and Christian belief.

I am Jewish. By basic standards. Although Hebrew would be more accurate as “Jews” are of the tribe of Judah which I am not. Messianic is very much like Christian in that there are many different groups with different beliefs. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith both before and after Messiah. I believe Yeshua/Jesus to be the Messiah. I will use Jesus in the English but prefer his Hebrew name Yeshua. I often use “Messiah” as he’s very unique and worthy of the respect of being called by his Title. I do not spell out “God” but prefer G-d because of instruction given in Duet. The same reason we removed the vowels from G-ds name “YHWH”. I keep Torah to the best of my ability in gratitude but not for salvation.


I would absolutely disagree that the “Old Testament “ teaches work’s salvation. Salvation has always been by faith. From the very beginning Torah teaches faith salvation.
Gen 15

And Abram said, “[e]Since You have given no [f]offspring to me, [g]one born in my house is my heir.” 4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own [h]body, he shall be your heir.” 5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your [i]descendants be.” 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

The New Testament repeatedly Quoted this.

Basically I believe that the plan is as it always was planned. The law does many things one of which was defined sin. Another was a temporary covering till Messiah came. Messiah replaces that sacrificial system which was always intended to be temporary and replaced.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Just a quick jab, and we will differ a bit here, because I believe Messiah has already arrived, crucified, and ressurrected.

What you refer to as resurrection, I refer to as the second coming.

Free Will- the will to choose to follow God, or not follow God.

Free will without sin - not possible. we were made to sin and be dependent on God/Messiah for cleansing and salvation.

Sin after resurrection (being called to heaven ??)- No IMO. We have already made our journey. We will be rejoicing to God in heaven infinitely. We will have received our reward and been made perfect. (I know there is a counter point there, but I'll leave that to you. Make it interesting).

Free Will after resurrection - Again, I'd go with no based on some passages in Revelation. And in my human brain of reasoning by free will, we chose God. Our reward is to be with him eternally in heaven. We have no more use for free will.

to clarify
When I say “the resurrection” I’m talking about after the final judgment. I don’t use “Heaven “ to describe this time because scripture says we will be on a new earth and a new Jerusalem comes here and G-d will be here with us. We don’t go to Heaven. I also use the term “afterlife” to describe this time after the final judgment

 

[Orangeslice13]

Just a quick jab, and we will differ a bit here, because I believe Messiah has already arrived, crucified, and ressurrected.

What you refer to as resurrection, I refer to as the second coming.

Free Will- the will to choose to follow God, or not follow God.

Free will without sin - not possible. we were made to sin and be dependent on God/Messiah for cleansing and salvation.

Sin after resurrection (being called to heaven ??)- No IMO. We have already made our journey. We will be rejoicing to God in heaven infinitely. We will have received our reward and been made perfect. (I know there is a counter point there, but I'll leave that to you. Make it interesting).

Free Will after resurrection - Again, I'd go with no based on some passages in Revelation. And in my human brain of reasoning by free will, we chose God. Our reward is to be with him eternally in heaven. We have no more use for free will.

I’m not sure on my opinion about free will in the “afterlife”. I guess that’s what I brought it up.
Sometimes I agree with you in that there will be no need for free will but at other times I think that it could continue as Messiah’s atonement world still be my covering.

 

[GVF]

I am Jewish. By basic standards. Although Hebrew would be more accurate as “Jews” are of the tribe of Judah which I am not. Messianic is very much like Christian in that there are many different groups with different beliefs. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith both before and after Messiah. I believe Yeshua/Jesus to be the Messiah. I will use Jesus in the English but prefer his Hebrew name Yeshua. I often use “Messiah” as he’s very unique and worthy of the respect of being called by his Title. I do not spell out “God” but prefer G-d because of instruction given in Duet. The same reason we removed the vowels from G-ds name “YHWH”. I keep Torah to the best of my ability in gratitude but not for salvation.


I would absolutely disagree that the “Old Testament “ teaches work’s salvation. Salvation has always been by faith. From the very beginning Torah teaches faith salvation.
Gen 15

And Abram said, “[e]Since You have given no [f]offspring to me, [g]one born in my house is my heir.” 4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own [h]body, he shall be your heir.” 5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your [i]descendants be.” 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

The New Testament repeatedly Quoted this.

Basically I believe that the plan is as it always was planned. The law does many things one of which was defined sin. Another was a temporary covering till Messiah came. Messiah replaces that sacrificial system which was always intended to be temporary and replaced.

Your background is very interesting. I will have to brush up on it. Your belief of salvation being by grace through faith is spot on to what I believe, and what I see in the NT teachings. Pretty neat on how you use the names. They are all his given names. Just what one is used to I guess. Don't quite get the vowel omission though.

Yes, you did have to have faith in the old testament also, but you had to make sacrifices, or the priests did for you to atone for sins and roll them back. That is works based salvation. A specific act on a recurring basis to receive something. You were required to tithe and punished if you withheld. That is works based. Now, it is based on what is in your heart as you have been blessed. After Christ, that is no longer required, as he offered his own blood to roll those sins back eternally to those who would believe. Now, you are saved through grace by faith and burial in him.

 

[Orangeslice13]

More on Torah and salvation.

Hab 2

“Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his [f]faith.

*******here the it’s the saved who live by faith ******

Duet 4

Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

**********”take it to your heart is to believe in your soul********

 

[GVF]

I’m not sure on my opinion about free will in the “afterlife”. I guess that’s what I brought it up.
Sometimes I agree with you in that there will be no need for free will but at other times I think that it could continue as Messiah’s atonement world still be my covering.

I can see that, but when the world is complete, and the judgement complete, and our reward given, the entirety of our journey is complete. The choice of your free will has been made complete and you were rewarded for it. You are relieved of it.

 

[GVF]

to clarify
When I say “the resurrection” I’m talking about after the final judgment. I don’t use “Heaven “ to describe this time because scripture says we will be on a new earth and a new Jerusalem comes here and G-d will be here with us. We don’t go to Heaven. I also use the term “afterlife” to describe this time after the final judgment

We will come back to this one. It has diverse subscription to this interpretation. An interesting study.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Your background is very interesting. I will have to brush up on it. Your belief of salvation being by grace through faith is spot on to what I believe, and what I see in the NT teachings. Pretty neat on how you use the names. They are all his given names. Just what one is used to I guess. Don't quite get the vowel omission though.

Yes, you did have to have faith in the old testament also, but you had to make sacrifices, or the priests did for you to atone for sins and roll them back. That is works based salvation. A specific act on a recurring basis to receive something. You were required to tithe and punished if you withheld. That is works based. Now, it is based on what is in your heart as you have been blessed. After Christ, that is no longer required, as he offered his own blood to roll those sins back eternally to those who would believe. Now, you are saved through grace by faith and burial in him.

Duet says that the name of G-dis to be kept sacred and not to be profaned like that of the pagan gods. Pagan alters were destroyed and writings burned. To keep that from happening to the name of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob they stopped writing the vowels out. Sadly we had so much respect for G-d that we don’t actually know what his name is beyond “YHWH “ or YHVH “.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Yes, you did have to have faith in the old testament also, but you had to make sacrifices, or the priests did for you to atone for sins and roll them back. That is works based salvation. A specific act on a recurring basis to receive something. You were required to tithe and punished if you withheld. That is works based. Now, it is based on what is in your heart as you have been blessed. After Christ, that is no longer required, as he offered his own blood to roll those sins back eternally to those who would believe. Now, you are saved through grace by faith and burial in him.

I broke your post in half to respond to each point separately. I hope that’s ok.

Salvation was by faith before just as it is now.
Individuals did not offer sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. That was done by priest on their behalf. Messiah finished that system by eliminating the temporary covering by the priest in the temple. Individuals made sacrifices as offerings.

Leviticus say that the soul is in the blood. It was the innocent blood of animals that temporarily covered. Kinda like the blood on the post in Exodus that allowed the angel of death to pass over. Messiah covered once and for all.
Footnote: Messiah is actually not a sacrifice in the since of the animals. His live was not taken His gift is voluntary. He made that clear before hand so there would be no confusion. He’s more of a martyr or at least that’s a better way to view it as human sacrifice is detestable before G-d.

 

[Girth Brooks]

Salvation is a lifestyle. God’s sheep will stumble, but they will NOT live a lifestyle of sin. You cannot be one with the Father and be lost. You’re either in unity or not, due to your faith in Christ, where all burdens were nailed to the cross, freed with redemption three days later.

I implore you to read Ephesians 2:8-9. I’ve referenced this passage before, but it is important in understanding salvation, and how it is not earned from works. In other words, if your salvation can be lost due to “works” (sin), then your works should give you power to regain salvation. If works gave us that power, meaning we can save ourselves, then Christ died in vain and our entire faith is a lie. It is not! I proudly proclaim Christ as the Lord of my life.

Carrying this further, if salvation can be lost, there has to be a standard by which to measure. What is that metric? One stumble? Ten cuss words? What is it?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Food for thought.

Ezekiel 36.

“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will immerse you in clean water , and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.


Baptism by the law?

And yes I chose the version that translated it immersion.

Kjv

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The Hebrew used here is more consistent with immersions as the same words are used elsewhere to describe Mikvah usage.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Salvation is a lifestyle. God’s sheep will stumble, but they will NOT live a lifestyle of sin. You cannot be one with the Father and be lost. You’re either in unity or not, due to your faith in Christ, where all burdens were nailed to the cross, freed with redemption three days later.

I implore you to read Ephesians 2:8-9. I’ve referenced this passage before, but it is important in understanding salvation, and how it is not earned from works. In other words, if your salvation can be lost due to “works” (sin), then your works should give you power to regain salvation. If works gave us that power, meaning we can save ourselves, then Christ died in vain and our entire faith is a lie. It is not! I proudly proclaim Christ as the Lord of my life.

Carrying this further, if salvation can be lost, there has to be a standard by which to measure. What is that metric? One stumble? Ten cuss words? What is it?

I agree with your post but would like to add that I wish people would include VS 10 when quoting Ephesians as it clarifies the result of that free gift.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

There’s no condemnation and people stumble but Believing in Jesus isn’t a permit to sin.

 

[joevol33]

I agree with your post but would like to add that I wish people would include VS 10 when quoting Ephesians as it clarifies the result of that free gift.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Believing in Jesus isn’t a permit to sin

Agree.