Senate just passed bill to regulate college sports

#252
#252
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
It's all easily taken care of if the major, money making teams will go pro and collective bargain with the players.

The agreement can include guardrails on NIL so it isn't used to beat a salary cap (like the NFL, NBA and MLB legally have,) a negotiated salary cap, free agency/transfer rules, etc just like other pro leagues enjoy with the safety of an "implied" Antitrust Exemption.

Those schools not in the "major college league" are naturally devalued, lack the money to pay much, etc and the "Wild West" situation is lessened as the talent and TV money goes to the "major college league."

The problem is the schools don't want to negotiate with the players like other leagues. They don't want the players to have a voice in the league even though their talent and sweat makes the games worth the TV money.
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I mean, even the pros foundation is technically not constitutional, but these were things that the founders couldn't see. They did a mind boggling great job at the time. The wild west thing is very true, and I said a long time ago that this would lead to players being employees of said school. They may very well eventually adopt fully the pro model.

I can say this and that in sports isn't constitutional, but I like anti trust laws and hate monopolies in general business. I guess it is what it is.
 
#254
#254
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
It's all easily taken care of if the major, money making teams will go pro and collective bargain with the players.

The agreement can include guardrails on NIL so it isn't used to beat a salary cap (like the NFL, NBA and MLB legally have,) a negotiated salary cap, free agency/transfer rules, etc just like other pro leagues enjoy with the safety of an "implied" Antitrust Exemption.

Those schools not in the "major college league" are naturally devalued, lack the money to pay much, etc and the "Wild West" situation is lessened as the talent and TV money goes to the "major college league."

The problem is the schools don't want to negotiate with the players like other leagues. They don't want the players to have a voice in the league even though their talent and sweat makes the games worth the TV money.
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You missed the point -

You do realize that in almost all other industries, there are "workers" that build the widgets that earn the profits for the company. They are NOT paid more than the folks that are responsible for leading them or setting the vision for the company. Workers are easily replaceable though some may be harder to replace than others.

In that perspective, these players are the "workers" not the "vision makers". They don't get to say who plays, who doesn't, what play is executed, etc. Someone else is making those decisions and they are executing based on that - as such, they align with the people who do the work based on someone else's vision. The players are replaceable (next man up). That doesn't imply that they can use the public nature of what they do to generate income outside of the that.

IMO, a player should not be paid more than the coach that is responsible for that player's success by the entity they both are affiliated with. Said differently, I believe the University of Tennessee should never pay any one player more than it pays CJH or Barnes or Caldwell, etc. In reality, there should be a significant difference in the pay scale. That doesn't imply that said player can't promote himself or herself in such a way that they individually make more money - just that the school itself should not have a model that does that.

All I will say is that the players are slowly whittling away at the hand that feeds them.
 
#255
#255
MOOOOONEY said:
NIL isn’t paid by Universities or athletic departments

If businesses and individuals are happy with their investment then why should we worry?
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Yes, I know UT is not paying them. My point was that there doesn't seem to be any real accounting of their endorsement deals. Are the athletes fulfilling their obligations in the deal?

Oh, we will be fine.I am not worried about us following the rules, but am about some of our opponents.
 
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#256
#256
norrislakevol said:
I mean, even the pros foundation is technically not constitutional, but these were things that the founders couldn't see. They did a mind boggling great job at the time. The wild west thing is very true, and I said a long time ago that this would lead to players being employees of said school. They may very well eventually adopt fully the pro model.

I can say this and that in sports isn't constitutional, but I like anti trust laws and hate monopolies in general business. I guess it is what it is.
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If they ever do become employees - they can be fired at will. They can be fined for their actions on the field. It is not just a penalty and maybe missing a half game - but a fine and dock of pay for missing time "at work". The level of pay will also be level set against other employees at the school. They will also have to agree to policies that the school has in place for all their employees - which quite frankly may not allow them the freedom to undertake activities that the school deems is bad press.

Them being employees of a university whose primary goal and source of income is based to teach and educate students is not a win for the players - it just isn't.
 
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#257
#257
BernardKingGOAT said:
Yes, I know UT is not paying them. My point was that there doesn't seem to be any real accounting of their endorsement deals. Are the athletes fulfilling their obligations in the deal?

Oh, we will be fine.I am not worried about us following the rules, but am about some of our opponents.
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Said differently - are they really earning the NIL or it is just rich donors of the school giving handouts?
 
#258
#258
volfan102455 said:
You missed the point -

You do realize that in almost all other industries, there are "workers" that build the widgets that earn the profits for the company. They are NOT paid more than the folks that are responsible for leading them or setting the vision for the company. Workers are easily replaceable though some may be harder to replace than others.

In that perspective, these players are the "workers" not the "vision makers". They don't get to say who plays, who doesn't, what play is executed, etc. Someone else is making those decisions and they are executing based on that - as such, they align with the people who do the work based on someone else's vision. The players are replaceable (next man up). That doesn't imply that they can use the public nature of what they do to generate income outside of the that.

IMO, a player should not be paid more than the coach that is responsible for that player's success by the entity they both are affiliated with. Said differently, I believe the University of Tennessee should never pay any one player more than it pays CJH or Barnes or Caldwell, etc. In reality, there should be a significant difference in the pay scale. That doesn't imply that said player can't promote himself or herself in such a way that they individually make more money - just that the school itself should not have a model that does that.

All I will say is that the players are slowly whittling away at the hand that feeds them.
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Athletics remains a unique team owner - worker arrangement. In almost no other organization does the entire workforce possess skills that are well above the talents on an average person.

That exclusive talent means those workers are worth far more than other industries because they are not easily replaced.

Do you think pro teams WANT to pay Steph Curry $50M a year or whatever? They don't, of course, but they must to get one of the few humans on the planet who can do what he does.

Nobody is paying big money to televise lesser conferences because the SEC and B1G provide a higher quality product. That product is high quality primarily because of the talent they have on the field.

Your "they're biting the hand that feeds them" isn't the case in pro leagues. Salaries continue to climb.
 
#259
#259
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
Athletics remains a unique team owner - worker arrangement. In almost no other organization does the entire workforce possess skills that are well above the talents on an average person.

That exclusive talent means those workers are worth far more than other industries because they are not easily replaced.

Do you think pro teams WANT to pay Steph Curry $50M a year or whatever? They don't, of course, but they must to get one of the few humans on the planet who can do what he does.

Nobody is paying big money to televise lesser conferences because the SEC and B1G provide a higher quality product. That product is high quality primarily because of the talent they have on the field.

Your "they're biting the hand that feeds them" isn't the case in pro leagues. Salaries continue to climb.
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Please athletics are not rocket scientists (except for Josh Dobbs). Please don't put down folks who in work in industries that do work that is necessary for all of us to survive.

Football is entertainment not life and death.
 
#260
#260
norrislakevol said:
I mean, even the pros foundation is technically not constitutional, but these were things that the founders couldn't see. They did a mind boggling great job at the time. The wild west thing is very true, and I said a long time ago that this would lead to players being employees of said school. They may very well eventually adopt fully the pro model.

I can say this and that in sports isn't constitutional, but I like anti trust laws and hate monopolies in general business. I guess it is what it is.
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The MLB actually has a specific Congressional Antitrust Exemption, I think, but all the other leagues are under a different act, I am not an attorney, that seems to this non lawyer to say "if you'll negotiate with the players collectively, you can pretty much make whatever rules y'all agree on." There are occasional challenges in the pro leagues and obviously strikes and lockouts but things are pretty well settled by union - owner negotiations.

That's what grinds my gears about the NCAA. There's a perfectly good model for how to handle an athletic organization and not get sued so why are you insisting Congress give you a "special pass" that no other athletic league gets?
 
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#261
#261
volfan102455 said:
Please athletics are not rocket scientists (except for Josh Dobbs). Please don't put down folks who in work in industries that do work that is necessary for all of us to survive.

Football is entertainment not life and death.
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Even rocket scientists aren't paid like athletes. It's the simple truth FAR more people can become a rocket scientist but it takes actual physical gifts and hard work to be an elite athlete.

It's a matter of economics. The pool of humans that can entertain the public sufficiently to get enough people to watch the SEC and B1G play and be televised for billion dollar contracts...... that pool of humans is very small.

No one is going to watch you and me (I think you're female) play basketball for very long, unless you did play for Pat. They just aren't.

Those that are God gifted with physical gifts and the drive to develop those gifts are sought after....... for better or worse in society....... more than rocket scientists. They get paid because of their scarcity.
 
#262
#262
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
No one is going to watch you and me (I think you're female) play basketball for very long, unless you did play for Pat. They just aren't.
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I am female and I get the not wanting to watch. I was a good shooter in the day though. My brothers would use me in their pick-up games on the playground when there were an uneven number of guys. "Well take the girl" was what they would say. I played the part - acted at first like I was just a use less extra so that the other guys would ignore me - then when it came to a point where they needed me to score - they would just pass me the ball - free shot which I made every time. First time, it was "she got lucky" - then at some point they would realize they had been fooled.

The thing about anyone in the entertainment realm of things is that we live in a world where there are many choices one has to spend their dollars. The appeal of college football to many, like me, is the atmosphere and traditions. If it becomes just like the NFL, it will be a become a big "no" for me. If I wanted the NFL, I will watch the real NFL.
 
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#263
#263
volfan102455 said:
I am female and I get the not wanting to watch. I was a good shooter in the day though. My brothers would use me in their pick-up games on the playground when there were an uneven number of guys. "Well take the girl" was what they would say. I played the part - acted at first like I was just a use less extra so that the other guys would ignore me - then when it came to a point where they needed me to score - they would just pass me the ball - free shot which I made every time. First time, it was "she got lucky" - then at some point they would realize they had been fooled.

The thing about anyone in the entertainment realm of things is that we live in a world where there are many choices one has to spend their dollars. The appeal of college football to many, like me, is the atmosphere and traditions. If it becomes just like the NFL, it will be a become a big "no" for me. If I wanted the NFL, I will watch the real NFL.
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And that's fine, vote with your eyeballs..... I never watch MLB, but how does the NCAA get the right to get a "special pass" for their athletic business that none of the other athletic leagues in the USA are allowed?

They actually argued before the Supreme Court in Alston that they shouldn't have to pay their players because traditionally they never paid their players and that's what "made the league different." That's what led to a 9-0 verdict and the Supreme Court saying nobody else, no other industry, can claim to be special and based on tradition so they don't have to follow the same laws as everyone else. "The NCAA is not above the law."

Just because you and I liked the tradition and whatnot that comes with the old college football doesn't mean it's legal, nor necessarily that it should be given a "special pass" so it can be legal.

The NCAA should operate under the established rules that other athletic leagues operate under.

As you said, it's entertainment. It's not that special. Play by the rules other leagues play by.
 
#264
#264
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
And that's fine, vote with your eyeballs..... I never watch MLB, but how does the NCAA get the right to get a "special pass" for their athletic business that none of the other athletic leagues in the USA are allowed?

They actually argued before the Supreme Court in Alston that they shouldn't have to pay their players because traditionally they never paid their players and that's what "made the league different." That's what led to a 9-0 verdict and the Supreme Court saying nobody else, no other industry, can claim to be special and based on tradition so they don't have to follow the same laws as everyone else. "The NCAA is not above the law."

Just because you and I liked the tradition and whatnot that comes with the old college football doesn't mean it's legal, nor necessarily that it should be given a "special pass" so it can be legal.

The NCAA should operate under the established rules that other athletic leagues operate under.

As you said, it's entertainment. It's not that special. Play by the rules other leagues play by.
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OK…. How many pro leagues are required to fund multiple non revenue sports and pay as many women as men?

Yes the NCAA WOULD PREFER TO RETURN TO THE AMATEUR RANKS funding educations as they prepare for pro circuits…. Not compete with them or serve as paid minor leagues.
 
#266
#266
GUNTERSVOL said:
OK…. How many pro leagues are required to fund multiple non revenue sports and pay as many women as men?

Yes the NCAA WOULD PREFER TO RETURN TO THE AMATEUR RANKS funding educations as they prepare for pro circuits…. Not compete with them or serve as paid minor leagues.
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Exactly. Which is why spinning off the revenue sports business from the university is the best answer.

Colleges then go back to funding sports at a low level, which they did for many, many years before they turned it into a big business with TV money. College athletics was never designed to be "if you don't make money, we're going to drop you" but rather as an adjunct to the college experience.

Legally, the NIL genie for athletes is out of the bag BUT without the competition for athletes of non revenue sports, it's not there. And having spun off the revenue generating sports, the colleges don't have to "share revenue" they aren't making with those non revenue sports. Colleges can be colleges with athletics that are the old traditional student athletes.

See, the idea that's wrong is the school WANTS to make all this money from the revenue sports like pro leagues do but they don't want to behave like a pro league has to behave toward the athletes.

Schools need to be schools and not about making a ton of money from sports. They need to pick a lane.
 
#267
#267
volfan102455 said:
Saw something today where the Kentucky basketball coach said that I believe 6 of his players were making more than any of the assistant coaches and 3 were making more than what the assistants make combined. That is like a person making more than the one responsible for setting the vision and leading them.

I wonder how long before some of the coaches just say enough - let the players coach by committee and see how that goes.

Reality is, NIL is individual so if a person, outside of whom they are working for can make money on their own - that is one thing - but the idea that these schools should be directly paying any player more than they are paying the person responsible for leading the team (i.e. coach) who will be fired based on how they perform, is insane.
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Players making more than the coaches? Gee, that sounds like the NFL, NBA and MLB. But, but, but this is college sports and “student-athletes”. Wink, wink.
 
#270
#270
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
And that's fine, vote with your eyeballs..... I never watch MLB, but how does the NCAA get the right to get a "special pass" for their athletic business that none of the other athletic leagues in the USA are allowed?

They actually argued before the Supreme Court in Alston that they shouldn't have to pay their players because traditionally they never paid their players and that's what "made the league different." That's what led to a 9-0 verdict and the Supreme Court saying nobody else, no other industry, can claim to be special and based on tradition so they don't have to follow the same laws as everyone else. "The NCAA is not above the law."

Just because you and I liked the tradition and whatnot that comes with the old college football doesn't mean it's legal, nor necessarily that it should be given a "special pass" so it can be legal.

The NCAA should operate under the established rules that other athletic leagues operate under.

As you said, it's entertainment. It's not that special. Play by the rules other leagues play by.
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Do you bet on college football?
 
#272
#272
SpaceCoastVol said:
@volfan102455 Care to make a wager to Dolly's library?
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You're exactly correct. Speaker Johnson cancelled the late Sept sessions and they'll come back after midterms and be jostling for position because some will be leaving at the end of the term, then comes adjournment in mid/late Dec or early Jan.

I think the House also has to kick the budget can down the road after they come back. I'm not 100% sure but I think they scramble to get that done most years very late in the term.

College football will be way down the list of things for the House to jump on when they get back.
 
#273
#273
volfan102455 said:
Saw something today where the Kentucky basketball coach said that I believe 6 of his players were making more than any of the assistant coaches and 3 were making more than what the assistants make combined. That is like a person making more than the one responsible for setting the vision and leading them.

I wonder how long before some of the coaches just say enough - let the players coach by committee and see how that goes.

Reality is, NIL is individual so if a person, outside of whom they are working for can make money on their own - that is one thing - but the idea that these schools should be directly paying any player more than they are paying the person responsible for leading the team (i.e. coach) who will be fired based on how they perform, is insane.
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Why do people want to pocket watch what the players make? Are the fans going to the games to see the Assistant coaches, or the players? It is perfectly legal for the coach to take a pay cut ans give his assistants more money if that is what is keeping him up at night.
They always want to complain about how much someone else is making, but never want to sacrifice their pay. Some coaches make 10 times what the assistant coaches make. No one has ever loss sleep.
 
#274
#274
titansvolsfaninga said:
Why do people want to pocket watch what the players make? Are the fans going to the games to see the Assistant coaches, or the players? It is perfectly legal for the coach to take a pay cut ans give his assistants more money if that is what is keeping him up at night.
They always want to complain about how much someone else is making, but never want to sacrifice their pay. Some coaches make 10 times what the assistant coaches make. No one has ever loss sleep.
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Many people resent that players get paid at all in their heart, whether they admit it or not. They think the scholarship is enough (and it's a great benefit if a player takes advantage of it) but the courts definitely see it differently.

Given that the courts were firm in saying "you can't be making all this money off these workers and not compensate them" the NCAA is stuck.

They don't want to go pro but they want to operate like a pro league without being called a pro league and without having to negotiate with the players over the rules like every other pro league.

They are a classic "special interest group" everyone hates who wants "special rules" for their business.
 
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#275
#275
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
In the Alston decision the SCOTUS told the NCAA that they should go to Congress if they wanted Antitrust protection for their illegal business model.

Congress, inept as usual, turned the hearings on the NCAA and college football into a "let's get a photo op with Coach Saban" with little more than him saying "it's pay for play and it shouldn't be because we really don't like that" (which is pretty laughable given Saban's knowledge of the history of college athlete payments.)

What the hearings really were, as you said, was the NCAA crying because they know they have to pay the athletes now but they don't want to use the pro model that's available.

Why not? The NCAA knows they have to share revenue now, that is, pay the workers. The NCAA wants no part of players being called employees, which..... what do you call it when you pay someone to play football for you in a league?

They're trying to get Congress to legally say: these people get paid to play sports but they aren't professional athletes.

Oddly, that's the kind of nonsense only Congress would try to say.
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Exactly, which is why this has little chance of not being a giant clusterf**k with lawsuit after lawsuit challenging it. They're trying to thread a needle that can't be threaded, and instead of letting the current mess work itself out (if that's possible), they're involving a greedy, incompetent body with no real knowledge of the situation other than what their staffers give them in Cliffsnotes talking points create something that will warp what college sports ever was.
 
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