SEC Records since expansion

unfrozencvmanvol

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Ah, gotcha. The reason i brought that up is because i believe theres a correlation of Cutcliffe being the OC and Fulmers success in the later years. Offense was terrible in 05 and 08 without him, but with him they exploited matchups and produced. He managed to either get complacent or lost the fire, but i remember in 06 when a commentator said he came in a meeting room after practice in 06 flipping tables and upset about how it was going and the players said it woke them up. That being said, I dont believe it would have gotten as bad as it has been without him and he may have turned it around again if he stayed. UT had the opportunity to do what UGA did after Richt and completely crapped the bed.
I agree Fulmer over the course of his career was better with Cutcliffe than without him, I believe he was 67-33 overall without him and 85-19 with him. I have mainly been arguing that Fulmer at his worst would never have burned the program down to its foundations like his 3 successors did and just maybe he'd have hired another good OC. Either way, we'd be better off I believe if we hadn't have fired him. Certainly it is an undisputed fact that we have become much, much worse since then.

To your last point, UGA got lucky. It's really infuriating. That's one of two times I've seen a school voluntarily fire a successful coach and get a better one and I'm pretty old. Ohio State firing John Cooper and getting Tressel being the other one. In a just world UGA would be walking in the wilderness right now.
 
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TUSKtimes

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So the Bear only lost to Auburn, Tennessee, Vandy, and LSU in 1969 and Ole Miss, Tennessee, LSU, and Auburn in 1970 because he didn't have any black players?

This is what I don't understand about Alabama fans, you legitimately have so much to undisputedly take pride in, why torpedo yourself with such preposterous claims?

By 1970 it became more than apparent about the dominant future of Alabama football and really the SEC without integration. Let me guess, you didn't live through segregation? Of course, you didn't. How coach Bryant used Alabama's success or lack thereof in 1969-70 with George Wallace is more than well documented. He pushed and pulled to make the little dictator that stood at the doors of the University of Alabama give in and allow Bama to integrate their football and other sports teams at the Capstone. It wasn't just conditioning of the governor and leading politicians, it was a conditioning of the racial bias that was running rampant among the football fans as well. Without that determination by coach Bryant, the super 70s decade for Bama football would never have happened.

Even today, with all of coach Saban's recent success it pales in comparison with coach Bryants stamp on college football, the state of Alabama, and how he strategically used that passion for college football to help lead the state of Alabama out of the bias that was the deep south.


How Bear Bryant Became the Branch Rickey of Alabama Football ...
 

unfrozencvmanvol

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Um. No. Our records against East squads were both 4-1.
We WON UNDER THE RULES AGREED UPON IN ADVANCE.

You brought up that they lost to two teams we didn't play, for all the difference that makes, well we lost to one they didn't play also, not that it makes the slightest difference in changing the fact that WE WON.

Next you'll whine that Hillary won the popular vote, I suppose.
 

West Vol

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I agree Fulmer over the course of his career was better with Cutcliffe than without him, I believe he was 67-33 overall without him and 85-19 with him. I have mainly been arguing that Fulmer at his worst would never have burned the program down to its foundations like his 3 successors did and just maybe he'd have hired another good OC. Either way, we'd be better off I believe if we hadn't have fired him. Certainly it is an undisputed fact that we have become much, much worse since then.

To your last point, UGA got lucky. It's really infuriating. That's one of two times I've seen a school voluntarily fire a successful coach and get better one and I'm pretty old. Ohio State firing John Cooper and getting Tressel being the other one. In a just world UGA would be walking in the wilderness right now.
Of the top three candidates Phil had for the OC position, not a one of them remained employed for the 2009 season.
 

West Vol

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We WON UNDER THE RULES AGREED UPON IN ADVANCE.

You brought up that they lost to two teams we didn't play, for all the difference that makes, well we lost to one they didn't play also, not that it makes the slightest difference in changing the fact that WE WON.

Next you'll whine that Hillary won the popular vote, I suppose.
I didn’t dispute that we won. I’m just not going to celebrate it like it was a dream season. We got the opportunity to play for a championship and blew it. Fantastic.
 

unfrozencvmanvol

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By 1970 it became more than apparent about the dominant future of Alabama football and really the SEC without integration. Let me guess, you didn't live through segregation? Of course, you didn't. How coach Bryant used Alabama's success or lack thereof in 1969-70 with George Wallace is more than well documented. He pushed and pulled to make the little dictator that stood at the doors of the University of Alabama give in and allow Bama to integrate their football and other sports teams at the Capstone. It wasn't just conditioning of the governor and leading politicians, it was a conditioning of the racial bias that was running rampant among the football fans as well. Without that determination by coach Bryant, the super 70s decade for Bama football would never have happened.

Even today, with all of coach Saban's recent success it pales in comparison with coach Bryants stamp on college football, the state of Alabama, and how he strategically used that passion for college football to help lead the state of Alabama out of the bias that was the deep south.


How Bear Bryant Became the Branch Rickey of Alabama Football ...
He didn't lose to LSU (twice), Ole Miss, Auburn (twice), Tennessee (twice), or Vanderbilt in 1969-70 because of his lack of black football players. I'm pretty sure Ole Miss and LSU, along with BYU were the last schools to integrate. Tennessee I believe had 1, and Auburn I think miraculously integrated 2 years before y'all did with James Owens, despite being in the same state. I think Vandy had 1 maybe 2 black players at that time, so you're full of it to the extent you continue to claim the Bear's 1967-70 struggles were due to his lack of black football players, since most of the losses of that time were to schools who also did not have black football players or at most 1 or 2.

As for the rest of it, I could care less, Bear Bryant wasn't any Martin Luther King because he wanted to win football games, that sounds like pure unadulterated self-interest to me.
 

TUSKtimes

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He didn't lose to LSU (twice), Ole Miss, Auburn (twice), Tennessee (twice), or Vanderbilt in 1969-70 because of his lack of black football players. I'm pretty sure Ole Miss and LSU, along with BYU were the last schools to integrate. Tennessee I believe had 1, and Auburn I think miraculously integrated 2 years before y'all did with James Owens, despite being in the same state. I think Vandy had 1 maybe 2 black players at that time, so you're full of it to the extent you continue to claim the Bear's 1967-70 struggles were due to his lack of black football players, since most of the losses of that time were to schools who also did not have black football players or at most 1 or 2.

As for the rest of it, I could care less, Bear Bryant wasn't any Martin Luther King because he wanted to win football games, that sounds like pure unadulterated self-interest to me.
I don't believe I said that it did, as far as SEC teams are concerned. I've said once, now twice, deep prejudice was a southern thing. Tennessee gets integration about the same time as Bama. Condredge Holloway went to Tennessee because coach Bryant was brutally honest enough with him in 1970. He made it clear that "Alabama wasn't ready for a black QB."

Doesn't change the fact Alabama was not as talented as the early and mid-60s and who they lost to had little to do with that fact. Nor does it change the solution which was fully implemented by the University of Alabama in the early 70s. And then and only then was the dynasty on.
 

orangepridenation

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Dobbs was somehow underappreciated and overrated at the same time.

In 2015 and 2016, a lot of people on here thought he was, or was on the cusp of, being something like a top 10 QB in the country. Or one of the best QBs ever to play at Tennessee. He was never at that level - he never truly developed as a downfield passer, and he wasn't great at reading the DE on the read option or on designed run plays. Handed the ball off a lot when he should have kept it himself, and vice versa. Admittedly, I think a lot of that was a lack of coaching. He was always at his best as an improvised scrambler, something that can't be taught, and I don't think that's a coincidence. The best play in Butch's playbook was Dobbs scrambling for a first down on 3rd down after the play had failed to develop.

Having said that, he covered up so many deficiencies on the offense it made your head spin. There's no way in hell we approach 9 wins in 2015 or 2016 without him. And everyone saw what happened after he left. I think we all, even the biggest Negavols here, underestimated the degree to which Dobbs made that offense go.
I agree. And history will probably prop him up even further with time. The Dobbs years will likely end up being the only positive thing about the 2010’s decade for UT football. Sad as that is to say.
 
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orangepridenation

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Derek Barnett says hi. The man did break Reggie Whites sack record after all.
Was talking about the Dobbs years in general, not just him individually, although he was the main reason we managed back to back 9 win seasons.

Barnett was probably the best pure football player we had during those years though.
 

05_never_again

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It doesn't seem like we won 5 games in those years. I cringe when we are on CBS. And I want to puke whenever I hear Gary and Verne say the word "Tennessee".
I was honestly surprised there were that many too. They were:

2010 Ole Miss (must've been a really bad SEC slate that day)
2015 Georgia
2016 Florida, Georgia, Mizzou
 

KBVol

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So eager to fire him they gave him an easy auto-extension clause in his contract a year prior to his demise.
You’re saying they weren’t eager to fire him? Lol.

They fired a HOF coach who brought them their last national title, who had given his entire adult life the program, unceremoniously, in the middle of the season with complete disrespect and to evidently humiliate him.

Btw, contract extensions don’t mean ish....and they showed that when they, as I noted in the previous paragraph, at the first possible moment they thought had the “credibility” to do so....and that extension sure as hell didn’t slow them down, now did it?
 

MikeVol44

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I can't believe you folded like a cheap suit. Hindsight is a magnificent thing.

This would have never, I repeat never been mentioned if Kiffin had stayed and had us in the SEC championship game in 10 or 11. Or 5 or 6 other scenarios other than the 5 or 6 actual events. Pfft.

Talking about beating a dead horse.
I made my mea culpa regarding CPF's firing NOT ON hypotheticals...but on historical events that have actually transpired since CPF's firing...and which have brought the program down to the depths we are experiencing.
I simply cannot envision ANY SCENARIO where CPF would've allowed the program to sink down to the depths we have experienced over the last 10 years--that's all I'm saying.

I would also offer---since you bring up hypotheticals and possible scenarios---that one very real scenario of having LK around for another 2 or 3 years would've been NCAA probation for the VOLS for recruiting violations.

Finally--IMO--ANYONE who sincerely believes that LK could've had us in the SEC title game by his 2nd or 3rd year is living on fantasy island.
 

Behr

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I made my mea culpa regarding CPF's firing NOT ON hypotheticals...but on historical events that have actually transpired since CPF's firing...and which have brought the program down to the depths we are experiencing.
I simply cannot envision ANY SCENARIO where CPF would've allowed the program to sink down to the depths we have experienced over the last 10 years--that's all I'm saying.

I would also offer---since you bring up hypotheticals and possible scenarios---that one very real scenario of having LK around for another 2 or 3 years would've been NCAA probation for the VOLS for recruiting violations.

Finally--IMO--ANYONE who sincerely believes that LK could've had us in the SEC title game by his 2nd or 3rd year is living on fantasy island.
Oh Good grief, always so dramatic. Seems okay for YOU to predict what probably would have happened and what wouldn't have happened, but I'm living on FANTASY Island not for believing something WOULD have happened, but just for suggesting none of this would be an issue or even discussed IF it HAD happened. Lol. I'm right. Deal with it.
 

West Vol

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You’re saying they weren’t eager to fire him? Lol.

They fired a HOF coach who brought them their last national title, who had given his entire adult life the program, unceremoniously, in the middle of the season with complete disrespect and to evidently humiliate him.

Btw, contract extensions don’t mean ish....and they showed that when they, as I noted in the previous paragraph, at the first possible moment they thought had the “credibility” to do so....and that extension sure as hell didn’t slow them down, now did it?
Yeah. I doubt if they were eager to fire him a season with embarrassing beat downs from out two biggest rivals and miracle wins against Kentucky, Vanderbilt, and South Carolina were going to be the deciding factor in a major contract renegotiation.

They fired him because the masses were sick of him and the stadium would be a ghost town moving forward.
 

West Vol

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I made my mea culpa regarding CPF's firing NOT ON hypotheticals...but on historical events that have actually transpired since CPF's firing...and which have brought the program down to the depths we are experiencing.
I simply cannot envision ANY SCENARIO where CPF would've allowed the program to sink down to the depths we have experienced over the last 10 years--that's all I'm saying.

I would also offer---since you bring up hypotheticals and possible scenarios---that one very real scenario of having LK around for another 2 or 3 years would've been NCAA probation for the VOLS for recruiting violations.

Finally--IMO--ANYONE who sincerely believes that LK could've had us in the SEC title game by his 2nd or 3rd year is living on fantasy island.
The NCAA wasn’t going to put us on probation for a bunch of secondary violations and some crap that was all pinned on David Reaves. Kiffin would’ve stopped intentionally mouthing off and drawing attention to us sometime soon and we’d have gotten along fine.

Kiffin finished second in the East his one season here. In year two, Florida is mediocre and in year three Urban Meyer is gone. So I don’t see why it’s so hard to envision Kiffin winning the East.
 

MikeVol44

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so? what's your point?

cause that's not how it was being portrayed here. it's being portrayed here as if we have a bunch of clarvoyants (sp?) here ready to collect on their "told ya so's" a decade later.

it's just a dumb thing to keep hashing out. especially when things finally seem to be at least pointed in the right direction again.
I would agree with you in those statements above....but I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE GUYS saying "I told you so" because I firmly thought at the time that firing CPF was the BEST THING back in 2008--WE LOOKED TERRIBLE.
I thought this because Hamilton made a brilliant decision in hiring Bruce Pearl--which was a GREAT THING for UT Basketball--and because I thought that CPF needed to go.

I thought that Hamilton would make a home run hire for the FB program.
However, Hamilton had stupid reasoning---if everything folks have reported on here are true---in REJECTING Gary Patterson for Lane Kiffin.
I think LK is a great offensive mind---BUT HE IS NOT HEAD COACH MATERIAL! (AL DAVIS WAS ONE OF THE MOST BRILLIANT FOOTBALL MINDS TO EVER HAVE LIVED)!

Hamilton also compounded that stupid decision by hiring Derek Doofus in PANIC MODE--when he had KIPPY BROWN as a completely viable and wise option for an interim head coach. Kippy had the necessary skills, experience, and respect of Football men he had earned over his career to bring some stability to the program and validity in recruiting.
Kippy may not have been the "sexy" choice--but he would've been the WISE, FOOTBALL MAN choice.

Ultimately--it is my opinion that all of these decisions ultimately PROVED what CPF was saying all along--THAT the greatest hindrance to the UT FB program were the administrative "guys" running the show who knew NOTHING about how to run a FB program AT ALL!! And although CPF was responsible for his own bad decisions--he was right.

We did have NON-FOOTBALL guys leading the FOOTBALL PROGRAM who possessed no real football acumen making decisions that led the program into the crapper!

I have changed my mind over the last 10 years because:

1. I don't believe CPF would've allowed the program to slide so low-- SEC record of 25-59 over the last 10 years...62-63 overall
2. I don't believe it would've taken CPF 7 years to have another 9 win season....and I don't think LK could've produced a 9 win season at UT in 3 years as HC!
3. I do believe CPF had NOT lost his touch as a recruiter of young men--and he had 2 good men coming in at the QB position who had the ability to LEAD FB teams to victory.
4. CPF's HIRING OF CJP.
5. Your last statement..."especially when things finally seem to be at least pointed in the right direction again."

They are heading that way again because CPF is running the damn show and hired a FOOTBALL MAN as our LEADER.

GO VOLS!!

That is all
 

MikeVol44

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The NCAA wasn’t going to put us on probation for a bunch of secondary violations and some crap that was all pinned on David Reaves. Kiffin would’ve stopped intentionally mouthing off and drawing attention to us sometime soon and we’d have gotten along fine.

Kiffin finished second in the East his one season here. In year two, Florida is mediocre and in year three Urban Meyer is gone. So I don’t see why it’s so hard to envision Kiffin winning the East.
Kiffin hasn't stopped mouthing off and saying stupid stuff to this very day!!!! I mean the man ruined his GRAVY TRAIN at Alabama with Nick Saban--just by being the poor-decision making, immature man that he is!
 

West Vol

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I would agree with you in those statements above....but I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE GUYS saying "I told you so" because I firmly thought at the time that firing CPF was the BEST THING back in 2008--WE LOOKED TERRIBLE.
I thought this because Hamilton made a brilliant decision in hiring Bruce Pearl--which was a GREAT THING for UT Basketball--and because I thought that CPF needed to go.

I thought that Hamilton would make a home run hire for the FB program.
However, Hamilton had stupid reasoning---if everything folks have reported on here are true---in REJECTING Gary Patterson for Lane Kiffin.
I think LK is a great offensive mind---BUT HE IS NOT HEAD COACH MATERIAL! (AL DAVIS WAS ONE OF THE MOST BRILLIANT FOOTBALL MINDS TO EVER HAVE LIVED)!

Hamilton also compounded that stupid decision by hiring Derek Doofus in PANIC MODE--when he had KIPPY BROWN as a completely viable and wise option for an interim head coach. Kippy had the necessary skills, experience, and respect of Football men he had earned over his career to bring some stability to the program and validity in recruiting.
Kippy may not have been the "sexy" choice--but he would've been the WISE, FOOTBALL MAN choice.

Ultimately--it is my opinion that all of these decisions ultimately PROVED what CPF was saying all along--THAT the greatest hindrance to the UT FB program were the administrative "guys" running the show who knew NOTHING about how to run a FB program AT ALL!! And although CPF was responsible for his own bad decisions--he was right.

We did have NON-FOOTBALL guys leading the FOOTBALL PROGRAM who possessed no real football acumen making decisions that led the program into the crapper!

I have changed my mind over the last 10 years because:

1. I don't believe CPF would've allowed the program to slide so low-- SEC record of 25-59 over the last 10 years...62-63 overall
2. I don't believe it would've taken CPF 7 years to have another 9 win season....and I don't think LK could've produced a 9 win season at UT in 3 years as HC!
3. I do believe CPF had NOT lost his touch as a recruiter of young men--and he had 2 good men coming in at the QB position who had the ability to LEAD FB teams to victory.
4. CPF's HIRING OF CJP.
5. Your last statement..."especially when things finally seem to be at least pointed in the right direction again."

They are heading that way again because CPF is running the damn show and hired a FOOTBALL MAN as our LEADER.

GO VOLS!!

That is all
Kiffin was a football guy, too. Just on the other side of the ball. There’s a reason Saban went out and got both of those guys.
 

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