SEC by ESPN

[VolinArizona]

VA, Tebow was 17 of 27 for 216... Does that really impress you against a secondary that basically returns no one... and then splits the talent in two? In fact, the whole defense is inexperienced and was split in two.

BTW, the article didn't mention the second team QB who didn't have Caldwell to throw to... he was 20 of 30 for 275. Sounds like it could be as much bad defense as good QB play.

Don't fall off your chair... I'm not saying that UF or Tebow are without talent or won't be good. But it is a safe bet that their defense isn't all that great at this point.

You must have missed the post last night or over the last few weeks where I said I'm unsure of how good the spread option will be in the SEC.

Also, yes, I do think Urban Meyer will start running 15-20 option plays a game. If his players don't do it well on this level, he might adapt.

Next, nothing in spring football impresses me or depresses me. I take all of it as a grain of salt.

Lastly, I was terribly incorrect on 2006 Cal vs. Tennessee, and I was happy to be so wrong. Another area where I was wrong was that I didn't think DEs could be 2-gap DEs. However, in overall game knowledge, I like to think I know what I'm talking about - and my history has shown that.

Anyway, I get what you're saying about Florida's offense, and I've agreed all along. You were wrong, however, in saying that Urban Meyer has run his offense. He hasn't. It's a fact.

 

[sjt18]

VA, I would actually agree that you've been one of the most informed and informing people here. You've also been one of the more cordial (at least to me). That's why some of your responses took me off guard.

I don't think I said that he'd run all of his O. If I did, I made a mistake. He hasn't been able to put in much of his rushing game.

KPT, I didn't say Tebow wasn't good... I didn't even say he wasn't great though we don't know that yet. I did say that I didn't think Meyer's option package would work in the SEC for the same basic reason no one runs it in the Pros. QB's can't take that kind of punishment and stay effective.

It worked at BGU and Utah. I firmly believe that had a whole lot to do with the competition. The MWC doesn't get alot of great athletes to play defense. The offensive skill players are almost universely bigger, faster, stronger, and quicker than their counterparts on Defense. It is reflected year after year in their conference Offensive stats.

One of the reasons I thought UF would do well against OSU is the style and speed of defense they play. It parallels what Meyer faced in the MAC which is basically a slightly less vanilla, minor league version of the Big 10.

As for Zook's talent, the D didn't get dramatically better Meyer's first year. In 2004, they gave up 21 ppg and ranked 6th in the SEC. In 2005, they gave up 19 ppg and ranked 6th in the SEC. This year they were great... but again, those were players Zook brought in 4 years ago in a pretty good class.

OTOH, Zook's offense averaged more ppg 2003 and 2004 than Meyer has in either year. In 2004, they were 2nd in scoring offense at 32 ppg. Meyer's O's have been 4th at 29 ppg and 2nd at 29 ppg... although that's a little misleading. They scored 62 against WCU who went 2-9 in 1AA and 42 against UCF who went 4-8. Without those two games, they averaged a pretty mediocre 26 ppg.

Meyer is a winner. Zook isn't. It could be that Meyer has had a perfect alignment of the stars, that he has the skill of legend making proportions, or some combination of inheriting good situations and his own skill.

He's obviously better than the MAC or MWC coaches. Though he was merely competitive at BGU losing 2 or 3 conference games both years. Their best year and championship came the year after he left. They almost beat OSU that year.

He now coaches in a league where a guy who is the active leader in winning percentage is considered the 4th-7th best coach.

Jake, UF didn't run alot of their option package. I know that. The question that still lingers in my mind is whether the difficulty in finding a RB suited to Meyer's O was a problem with the talent (which is a little hard to believe) or with the things that O asks a RB to do against SEC caliber defenders.

BTW, Caldwell played and caught some passes. I think the leading WR in their spring game also got PT last year.

 

[jakez4ut]

KPT, I didn't say Tebow wasn't good...



He's obviously better than the MAC or MWC coaches. . Their best year and championship came the year after he left. They almost beat OSU that year.

He now coaches in a league where a guy who is the active leader in winning percentage is considered the 4th-7th best coach.

Jake, UF didn't run alot of their option package. I know that. The question that still lingers in my mind is whether the difficulty in finding a RB suited to Meyer's O was a problem with the talent (which is a little hard to believe) or with the things that O asks a RB to do against SEC caliber defenders.

No, you said that he was "fullback playing as a qb without a doubt"....forgive us if we read in to that to mean that you thought he wasn't any good.

uh, there's a lot of SEC coaches that would agree with you. and they did beat OSU last year.

so wait, you are now telling me that he's not a good coach because you don't think Fulmer's a good coach??? what am i missing here??? is Fulmer bringing down the rest of the league single handily?

yeah, they missed a running back last year. Again, somehow i just think that meyer will take SEC titles and National Titles any year that he "struggles" with finding a RB, esp when he has a qb capable of getting 50+ yds a game on the ground and a slew of WR's that can take end arounds etc....and i would tell you that what his offense asks of a RB is less than what the traditional SEC offense asks of a RB. i think this is part of the problem. you look at this offensive style and say "yeah it worked at Utah and BGU, big deal, it won't work in the SEC against SEC defenses". I look at it like this........what would that offense look like with SEC caliber talent on offense against Defenses that have never had to play against it regularly? wanna know the answer? tune in in September and we'll all find out who's right or wrong for sure, (and i want to be wrong here) but i do know this, even w/out being able to run that offense to the full extent he'd like to, in two years, he's already 2-0 against us and UGA, won an SEC title and a national title. so forgive me if right now i'm not in the "it'll never work" camp.

as for caldwell, if you go back an read the article, it did say that he played, but that when Tebow was in, caldwell was pretty much not playing.......i believe most of his catches came while playing with the 2nd string guy.

 

[VolinArizona]

VA, I would actually agree that you've been one of the most informed and informing people here. You've also been one of the more cordial (at least to me). That's why some of your responses took me off guard.

I don't think I said that he'd run all of his O. If I did, I made a mistake. He hasn't been able to put in much of his rushing game.

KPT, I didn't say Tebow wasn't good... I didn't even say he wasn't great though we don't know that yet. I did say that I didn't think Meyer's option package would work in the SEC for the same basic reason no one runs it in the Pros. QB's can't take that kind of punishment and stay effective.

It worked at BGU and Utah. I firmly believe that had a whole lot to do with the competition. The MWC doesn't get alot of great athletes to play defense. The offensive skill players are almost universely bigger, faster, stronger, and quicker than their counterparts on Defense. It is reflected year after year in their conference Offensive stats.

One of the reasons I thought UF would do well against OSU is the style and speed of defense they play. It parallels what Meyer faced in the MAC which is basically a slightly less vanilla, minor league version of the Big 10.

As for Zook's talent, the D didn't get dramatically better Meyer's first year. In 2004, they gave up 21 ppg and ranked 6th in the SEC. In 2005, they gave up 19 ppg and ranked 6th in the SEC. This year they were great... but again, those were players Zook brought in 4 years ago in a pretty good class.

OTOH, Zook's offense averaged more ppg 2003 and 2004 than Meyer has in either year. In 2004, they were 2nd in scoring offense at 32 ppg. Meyer's O's have been 4th at 29 ppg and 2nd at 29 ppg... although that's a little misleading. They scored 62 against WCU who went 2-9 in 1AA and 42 against UCF who went 4-8. Without those two games, they averaged a pretty mediocre 26 ppg.

Meyer is a winner. Zook isn't. It could be that Meyer has had a perfect alignment of the stars, that he has the skill of legend making proportions, or some combination of inheriting good situations and his own skill.

He's obviously better than the MAC or MWC coaches. Though he was merely competitive at BGU losing 2 or 3 conference games both years. Their best year and championship came the year after he left. They almost beat OSU that year.

He now coaches in a league where a guy who is the active leader in winning percentage is considered the 4th-7th best coach.

Jake, UF didn't run alot of their option package. I know that. The question that still lingers in my mind is whether the difficulty in finding a RB suited to Meyer's O was a problem with the talent (which is a little hard to believe) or with the things that O asks a RB to do against SEC caliber defenders.

BTW, Caldwell played and caught some passes. I think the leading WR in their spring game also got PT last year.

I appreciate the kinds words, and I must admit my foul up. I had you confused with someone else. I looked back at your posts and you come off as knowledgeable and well-informed. While I think you did miss the boat on the topic in this thread about how much of his offense Meyer has run, overall you know this stuff well.

I really don't know who I had you confused with. Obviously I was wrong.

 

[jakez4ut]

I appreciate the kinds words, and I must admit my foul up. I had you confused with someone else. I looked back at your posts and you come off as knowledgeable and well-informed. While I think you did miss the boat on the topic in this thread about how much of his offense Meyer has run, overall you know this stuff well.

I really don't know who I had you confused with. Obviously I was wrong.

mark this page........this may be the first time in the history of Volnation that anyone has ever been so bold to admit they were wrong about something...... if only the rest of us could follow via's lead........

 

[sjt18]

No, you said that he was "fullback playing as a qb without a doubt"....forgive us if we read in to that to mean that you thought he wasn't any good.

OK. You're forgiven... since what I meant is the guy as an absolute brute. He is as big and strong as a FB but playing QB.

That's not an insult in my book.

so wait, you are now telling me that he's not a good coach because you don't think Fulmer's a good coach??? what am i missing here???

Context? Things I've actually said vs what you've apparently assumed?

Meyer had two good years at BGU after the program had been lackluster. He had a very good year and a great year at Utah. He had a decent year followed by a great year at UF... We don't have the history to know what he might actually do when he starts depending primarily on guys he recruited.

He's obviously won games and posted big stats before coming to the SEC. Here he has won games but the impressive stats have come from the defense which isn't his specialty or why UF hired him. His claim to fame is lighting up the scoreboard.

tune in in September and we'll all find out who's right or wrong for sure, (and i want to be wrong here) but i do know this, even w/out being able to run that offense to the full extent he'd like to, in two years, he's already 2-0 against us and UGA, won an SEC title and a national title. so forgive me if right now i'm not in the "it'll never work" camp.

You just made my point for me then inexplicably disagreed with what you and I said. He has not been extraordinary on offense. The defense won it for them... a defense that just lost about 10 players off its two deep and returns a relatively few lettermen.

 

[jakez4ut]

you should work on putting in writing what you really mean then.

 

[sjt18]

I did. It still mystifies me as to how you took it as a slight toward him. I would have said the same thing about Heath Shuler and probably did. One of the things few people knew about Heath is that he wasn't All-State as a QB... but as a Free Safety. He was a big time hitter.

 

[ut 4 me]

that is shocking

 

[sjt18]

i think this is part of the problem. you look at this offensive style and say "yeah it worked at Utah and BGU, big deal, it won't work in the SEC against SEC defenses". I look at it like this........what would that offense look like with SEC caliber talent on offense against Defenses that have never had to play against it regularly?

You miss the point entirely.

Meyer even says that his offense depends on creating match ups that favor his athletes.

The MWC seldom had even ONE player in a back 7 that was as good of an athlete as any of Utah's skill players.

The MAC like the Big 10 builds defenses around the "stop the power running game" first mentality. One year his offense did OK. The next it burned them for about 40 ppg. Again, his skill players were significantly faster than those of the defenses he faced.

He HAS HAD the best athletes of his career over the past two years and has yet to break 30 ppg in the SEC. Their overall offensive athleticism isn't going to increase by some incredible amount this year. The only thing that weighs against this argument is if you put a ton of stock in Tebow... a first year starter who may or may not be the Superman you apparently believe he will be. UF was mediocre in 05 and won on defense last year.

You effectively claimed I was making an ignorant argument... but I've pointed to facts. You are basing most of your projection on things we don't know yet.

Again, I may be surprised. But I simply will not believe that UF will field 5 skill players and a QB that will create huge athletic mismatches with the back 7's for most SEC defenses until I see it. The fact that UF loses two of its top 3 WR's also supports this doubt. In fact, Baker was their leading WR by more than 200 yards.

Granted UF didn't lose as much production at WR as UT but they don't have a returning Sr QB or experienced RB's either.

Their situation is similar to what UT's would have been had they lost Ainge, Swain, and Meachem and returned Crompton and Smith. Caldwell is statistically a possession receiver. He had the lowest YPC on the UF team except for K Moore the RB.