Saban and Meyer when they were hired

#26
#26
kptvol said:
Kind of hard to believe Chris Leak is Meyer's least individually accomplished quarterback.

Looks like Harris bounced around a few NFL teams and is now out of football. Jacobs is in an indoor league. Leak is in the CFL.
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Harris is living around here somewhere and working locally. I don't know in what, but I've seen him a few times.

Jacobs had probably the most garish number in college history. His TD:INT ratio in 2004 was 41:4.
 
#27
#27
Ohio Vol said:
If a guy can coach, it trumps recruiting. The most common complaint around here has been that Fulmer can recruit but can't develop anyone; it's been proven time and again that the vast majority of players don't have the natural instincts to be top-level players. They must be coached that way. If coaches all across the country who lack recruiting pedigree are winning games and those who get all kinds of recruits aren't winning, what's that say about which is more important?
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I agree with all that, but if we're fielding Vanderbilt quality players, we're going to be drilled by the Gators and Tide, regardless of who the coach is. Recruiting will be a very important duty for our next staff. If the head man isn't the best at it, he needs to find an assistant or two that can pick up the slack.
 
#28
#28
kptvol said:
I agree with all that, but if we're fielding Vanderbilt quality players, we're going to be drilled by the Gators and Tide, regardless of who the coach is. Recruiting will be a very important duty for our next staff. If the head man isn't the best at it, he needs to find an assistant or two that can pick up the slack.
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I don't buy it.

The trick is finding how exactly to put those pieces together in a manner that maximizes the output of the team. When Stoops took over at Oklahoma, he had them getting sized for championship rings in his second year; let's be honest about this and not call John Blake anything but a horrific recruiter.

With the dearth of talent that Meyer had at BGSU and Utah, there's no way either of those teams should have been better than 6-6 in any year. He found a way to do it. But then, we're talking a generational offensive mind....from Faurot to Royal to Ellison (and his protege Mouse Davis) to Walsh to Meyer. And who knows, in 10 years I might be following Meyer.

(And if you saw the offense I'm currently developing, you'd be wise to bet on that.)
 
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#29
#29
Putting the pieces together is a heck of a lot easier with guys like Harvin, Demps, Rainey, Tebow, and Hernandez. If recruiting wasn't extremely important Urban Meyer wouldn't invest so much time and effort into bringing blue chips to Gainesville.
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#30
#30
Recruiting top-caliber players makes the margin of error in coaching and playing a heck of a lot bigger.
 
#32
#32
Ohio Vol said:
I don't buy it.

The trick is finding how exactly to put those pieces together in a manner that maximizes the output of the team. When Stoops took over at Oklahoma, he had them getting sized for championship rings in his second year; let's be honest about this and not call John Blake anything but a horrific recruiter.
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am I hearing that the right coach could beat UF with Vandy's talent? Maybe that UT could beat the Dallas Cowboys putting the pieces together to maximize output?
 
#33
#33
BigPapaVol said:
am I hearing that the right coach could beat UF with Vandy's talent? Maybe that UT could beat the Dallas Cowboys putting the pieces together to maximize output?
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Why not? Ole Miss beat Florida with Houston Nutt coaching. USC lost to Stanford last year.

Now in one single game, it's tough to look at that as indicative of anything besides a fluke. But how to explain Oklahoma State more than holding their own against Oklahoma over the last six years? How to explain Michigan's dominance over Ohio State during the 1990s with vastly inferior talent? How to explain Paul Johnson winning anywhere?
 
#34
#34
Ohio Vol said:
Why not? Ole Miss beat Florida with Houston Nutt coaching. USC lost to Stanford last year.

Now in one single game, it's tough to look at that as indicative of anything besides a fluke. But how to explain Oklahoma State more than holding their own against Oklahoma over the last six years? How to explain Michigan's dominance over Ohio State during the 1990s with vastly inferior talent? How to explain Paul Johnson winning anywhere?
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There is something to be said for good coaching. But, Kiffin is a proven commodity in getting more out of players then others seem to be able to. It seems there is tendency on this board by some to make the choice one of a recruiter versus a coach. The reality is you have a proven recruiter versus an unproven recruiter. You have a two coaches that have shown an exceptional ability to coach players up. One is a much more proven HC then the other no doubt.

Ole Miss has some decent talent. In no way are they as talented as UF or LSU but they are closing in on us. So they did not beat those teams with Vandy talent or something. Ok St. has held there own but has won nothing that is not us, I hope don't you? Johnson has not proven much yet. He has too fill the cupboard and then start winning titles. So the jury is still out on that one.

Ohio State in the 90s was us 5-9 years ago we are now worse off because we waited too long to axe Fulmer. He has lost his recruiting edge to a degree as well.

What is my point? Yes, bad coaching can lead to losing with superior talent. But, Kiffin has never shown evidence of being a bad coach. He has excelled as a coach. So the choice is really one of where do you want to take your risk. That Kiffin is somehow a good position/coordinator but as a HC he will fail? Knowing with reasonable confidence he will leave us if he fails with good talent on board. Or risk Kelly cannot coach in the bigger better league or cannot get the players to compete at this level.

I am one to risk the former. If Kiffin fails we will still be in position to take another shot with good talent. A Kelly failure will leave us with an empty cupboard and a long haul back up. There are not many Saban types that can fix a program that quickly.
 
#35
#35
Jewbaccah said:
There is something to be said for good coaching. But, Kiffin is a proven commodity in getting more out of players then others seem to be able to. It seems there is tendency on this board by some to make the choice one of a recruiter versus a coach. The reality is you have a proven recruiter versus an unproven recruiter. You have a two coaches that have shown an exceptional ability to coach players up. One is a much more proven HC then the other no doubt.
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I have no problem with Kiffin at all.

Ole Miss has some decent talent. In no way are they as talented as UF or LSU but they are closing in on us. So they did not beat those teams with Vandy talent or something. Ok St. has held there own but has won nothing that is not us, I hope don't you? Johnson has not proven much yet. He has too fill the cupboard and then start winning titles. So the jury is still out on that one.
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Johnson has proven that he can win games at Navy, and currently is a VT loss away from probably winning an ACC title in his first year at a school that had a totally bare cupboard (thanks to Chan Gailey) and a sizable personnel/system mismatch.

Going 6-6 at Navy is like going 11-1 anywhere else; if he won with that little talent (which I'd rank generously at #200 in the college football world) while being out-talented by literally every single team they ever faced, he's the best in the country.

Ohio State in the 90s was us 5-9 years ago we are now worse off because we waited too long to axe Fulmer. He has lost his recruiting edge to a degree as well.
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Fulmer or Cooper? Cooper's problem was that he was so busy going after Florida's best and California's best and Texas's best that he was letting the entire state of Ohio go to Michigan and Penn State and beat the snot out of Ohio State.

I miss Cooper every single year.

What is my point? Yes, bad coaching can lead to losing with superior talent. But, Kiffin has never shown evidence of being a bad coach. He has excelled as a coach. So the choice is really one of where do you want to take your risk. That Kiffin is somehow a good position/coordinator but as a HC he will fail? Knowing with reasonable confidence he will leave us if he fails with good talent on board. Or risk Kelly cannot coach in the bigger better league or cannot get the players to compete at this level.
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I wasn't even going for the Kelly/Kiffin as an either/or proposition. I'm fairly indifferent on who comes to UT as long as he throws Adkins out the door.

I am one to risk the former. If Kiffin fails we will still be in position to take another shot with good talent. A Kelly failure will leave us with an empty cupboard and a long haul back up. There are not many Saban types that can fix a program that quickly.
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Except the aforementioned Paul Johnson; I had him winning an ACC title his third year, but I say give him coach of the year awards right now even if VT wins this week.
 
#36
#36
I agree with your Cooper statement. My buddy who played baseball at Ohio State always said the same thing. As for Johnson I said the jury is out. I am impressed with what he has done. Even if it is in the a weak period in the ACC. Coach of the year maybe. You would give it to him over Kelly?

Sorry if I am obsessed with the Kelly/Kiffin comparison it is the nature of the coaching search we are in. So you really like Johnson. So would he be your pick if you had one then at UT?
 
#37
#37
saban when, hired by bama, was alresdy a big deal...

meyer too when he was hired was being praised for getting Utah to a BCS bowl season and - before he went to UF - he was being penciled in as the Notre Dame hire and the media very much felt he was going to be the coach to take them back to glory
 
#39
#39
Ohio Vol said:
Why not? Ole Miss beat Florida with Houston Nutt coaching. USC lost to Stanford last year.

Now in one single game, it's tough to look at that as indicative of anything besides a fluke. But how to explain Oklahoma State more than holding their own against Oklahoma over the last six years? How to explain Michigan's dominance over Ohio State during the 1990s with vastly inferior talent? How to explain Paul Johnson winning anywhere?
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Not sure I'd say Oklahoma State has been well coached the last 6 years. The average margin of victory for OU over the last 6 is 17 points. I don't know that I'd call that close. OSU has gotten lucky and snuck up on a sleeping giant the way Vandy used to do to a couple of the better SEC teams. More often than not, however, you see a 52-9 style beating like the one that occured in 2003.

My final thoughts on the matter: Recruiting helped Fulmer and company produce one of the best programs of the 90's. Had their been some better coaching, UT would have been hands down the best program and would have sustained some big success into this decade. Urban Meyer is a great coach and would be able to make a nationally relevant program just about anywhere. However, his recruiting prowess at Florida will be the difference that will make him go down as the most successful coach of this era.
 
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#40
#40
Jewbaccah said:
I agree with your Cooper statement. My buddy who played baseball at Ohio State always said the same thing. As for Johnson I said the jury is out. I am impressed with what he has done. Even if it is in the a weak period in the ACC. Coach of the year maybe. You would give it to him over Kelly?

Sorry if I am obsessed with the Kelly/Kiffin comparison it is the nature of the coaching search we are in. So you really like Johnson. So would he be your pick if you had one then at UT?
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I've got Cooper stories that are either hilarious or pathetic, depending on your perspective. I know one guy who swears that Ohio State was going to offer Ryan Brewer a scholarship until they got him into a summer camp and realized he was white; they went from loving him to trying to keep him away as much as possible (and this is from someone in the know, not just some random person off the street).

I do love Paul Johnson. I know the offense like the back of my hand and it's weird that I, sitting 550 miles away from Atlanta, am on the same page from an in-game standpoint. It's kind of funny...I'll watch the game with my wife sitting there, and she'll go "What would you run now?" And I'll give her the formation and play (and any minor adjustment) and watch exactly that get run. Last week against Miami was a blast. They got down to the 2 late in the 3rd, and she asked me that. I said, "Normal splits if not slightly wider, (formation), (our normal play number for the base triple) but the QB may bounce back if the DT doesn't pinch."
 
#41
#41
tvolsfan said:
I also thought Urban Meyer would be a success, but I never thought it would happen that quickly.
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UF was winning 8-9 games a year with Ron Zook coaching the team. Didn't take a genius to figure that they next guy was going to win in double figures.
 
#42
#42
jsc1973 said:
UF was winning 8-9 games a year with Ron Zook coaching the team. Didn't take a genius to figure that they next guy was going to win in double figures.
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Ron Zook never won 9 games in a single season at Florida. In his final season he went 7-4 with a loss to Sly Croom. The bowl was a disaster. Things didn't look too promising for the 2005 Gators.
 
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