Request for help from a rule informed person.

#1
GUNTERSVOL

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
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#1
I know you cannot file an official protest over a call, judgement or other wise, but if they did in fact inform our coach that the call was not reviewable that is a misapplication of the rules. Is that in play? Can't get a win, but could OFFICIALLY set aside the loss which would be as good as it gets.

If you run out of bounds when the whistle blows is not relevant. If your body part touches the ground when the whistle blows is not relevant. If the play is ended by an official's judgement it has to be relevant. In a reviewable situation the ball SHOULD be spotted where you run out of bounds regardless of where the official originally thought you did, it should be spotted where the ball was when the body part went down regardless of where the official originally thought it was, and in the absence of either one of those two, where the ball was when the whistle was blown regardless of where the official thought it was. If the ball had only reached the 1 inch line before the whistle then I guess we would be out of luck and they could try and hide behind their defense. Not what happened. Blowing the play dead is what it is. It is THE act that ended the play just like crossing the boundry and the down by contact. What was the forward progress on that play relative to the whistle?

edited to add.....

If my assumption about the play ending on the whistle is not correct and it was simply by some lack of field action, then a player would be subject to a personal foul late hit in the field of play before the whistle is even blown because an official thought the play was over.
 
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#2
#2
can we talk about the real issue from the MCB. Our offense came out on fire and had the score at 21-7 at the end of the 1st qtr. Then our offense took their foot off the gas and coasted for the next 2 quarters. This allowed Purdue to gain confidence and get back in the game and eventually win. Yes that was a bad call in OT but the game never should have made it to OT. We had many many chances to win that game in regulation including the last drive where we need 10-15 yards to make it an easy field goal and instead we try to throw 2- 40 yard bombs to the end zone. Get 10-15 yards and MAKE a reasonable field goal instead of a 56 yard FG when you know your kicker cannot make one that long. That is bad coaching and bad decision making from our QB.
 
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#3
#3
VolBricks said:
can we talk about the real issue from the MCB. Our offense came out on fire and had the score at 21-7 at the end of the 1st qtr. Then our offense took their foot off the gas and coasted for the next 2 quarters. This allowed Purdue to gain confidence and get back in the game and eventually win. Yes that was a bad call in OT but the game never should have made it to OT. We had many many chances to win that game in regulation including the last drive where we need 10-15 yards to make it an easy field goal and instead we try to throw 2- 40 yard bombs to the end zone. Get 10-15 yards and MAKE a reasonable field goal instead of a 56 yard FG when you know your kicker cannot make one that long. That is bad coaching and bad decision making from our QB.
Click to expand...

To be fair, Tillman had the CB beat at the end of regulation and the CB held his jersey for 10 yards right in front the line judge that blew the TD at the end.....
 
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#4
#4
VolBricks said:
can we talk about the real issue from the MCB. Our offense came out on fire and had the score at 21-7 at the end of the 1st qtr. Then our offense took their foot off the gas and coasted for the next 2 quarters. This allowed Purdue to gain confidence and get back in the game and eventually win. Yes that was a bad call in OT but the game never should have made it to OT. We had many many chances to win that game in regulation including the last drive where we need 10-15 yards to make it an easy field goal and instead we try to throw 2- 40 yard bombs to the end zone. Get 10-15 yards and MAKE a reasonable field goal instead of a 56 yard FG when you know your kicker cannot make one that long. That is bad coaching and bad decision making from our QB.
Click to expand...

I think we can all agree our inconsistency on offense put the officials in a position to cost us the game. But that does not mean we cannot address our internal issues and the external issues separately. We gave a runner the ball, he was never down by contact nor did he run out of bounds and the officials called the play dead before the defense completed a tackle that had something other than a hand or foot on the ground. I think our total yardage number I have seen reflects a problem.... since they did not allow us the the last official yard, we ended up with 666 total yards. It is one thing to cause yourself issues, another for the opposition, but a whole different category when officials directly impact a game with a ruling so bad it draws general doubt and criticism.

i don't think they accurately applied the use of review on the quick whistle and doubled down IF IN FACT they did say it was not reviewable as I have heard it reported, and by doing so did not allow us every inch earned before we were down by contact or the whistle blew in the field of play.
 
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#5
#5
Remember the same line judge trailed the play where the Purdue TE broke all those tackles....

Just wondering why that wasn't stopped forward progress when our play was (And no, I wouldn't have blown the Purdue TD dead)
 
#7
#7
VolBricks said:
can we talk about the real issue from the MCB. Our offense came out on fire and had the score at 21-7 at the end of the 1st qtr. Then our offense took their foot off the gas and coasted for the next 2 quarters. This allowed Purdue to gain confidence and get back in the game and eventually win. Yes that was a bad call in OT but the game never should have made it to OT. We had many many chances to win that game in regulation including the last drive where we need 10-15 yards to make it an easy field goal and instead we try to throw 2- 40 yard bombs to the end zone. Get 10-15 yards and MAKE a reasonable field goal instead of a 56 yard FG when you know your kicker cannot make one that long. That is bad coaching and bad decision making from our QB.
Click to expand...

Our QB set a record for td passes in a bowl, had over 400 yards of offense and we scored 45 points in regulation, yet you blame the offense for the loss? Interesting take.
 
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#8
#8
GUNTERSVOL said:
I know you cannot file an official protest over a call, judgement or other wise, but if they did in fact inform our coach that the call was not reviewable that is a misapplication of the rules. Is that in play? Can't get a win, but could OFFICIALLY set aside the loss which would be as good as it gets.

If you run out of bounds when the whistle blows is not relevant. If your body part touches the ground when the whistle blows is not relevant. If the play is ended by an official's judgement it has to be relevant. In a reviewable situation the ball SHOULD be spotted where you run out of bounds regardless of where the official originally thought you did, it should be spotted where the ball was when the body part went down regardless of where the official originally thought it was, and in the absence of either one of those two, where the ball was when the whistle was blown regardless of where the official thought it was. If the ball had only reached the 1 inch line before the whistle then I guess we would be out of luck and they could try and hide behind their defense. Not what happened. Blowing the play dead is what it is. It is THE act that ended the play just like crossing the boundry and the down by contact. What was the forward progress on that play relative to the whistle?

edited to add.....

If my assumption about the play ending on the whistle is not correct and it was simply by some lack of field action, then a player would be subject to a personal foul late hit in the field of play before the whistle is even blown because an official thought the play was over.
Click to expand...
they review progress when a ball spot is in question, so you can use review on the field of play just Not on the goal linr. they do it all the time. look it up its in the rule book.
 
#9
#9
BigOrangeMojo said:
Remember the same line judge trailed the play where the Purdue TE broke all those tackles....

Just wondering why that wasn't stopped forward progress when our play was (And no, I wouldn't have blown the Purdue TD dead)
Click to expand...

IF you are referring to the play that occurred with about 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter, I saw nothing wrong with that call. The receiver was upright, inbounds and without a hand on him when took off for the end zone. I think the defenders thought he was out of bounds. I don’t think these officials were out to get us...I just think they were incompetent.
 
#10
#10
JWilly said:
IF you are referring to the play that occurred with about 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter, I saw nothing wrong with that call. The receiver was upright, inbounds and without a hand on him when took off for the end zone. I think the defenders thought he was out of bounds. I don’t think these officials were out to get us...I just think they were incompetent.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree but if you use the same logic as our final play or the Matt Corral play, then thay guy's forward progress was stopped.
 
#11
#11
GUNTERSVOL said:
I know you cannot file an official protest over a call, judgement or other wise, but if they did in fact inform our coach that the call was not reviewable that is a misapplication of the rules. Is that in play? Can't get a win, but could OFFICIALLY set aside the loss which would be as good as it gets.

If you run out of bounds when the whistle blows is not relevant. If your body part touches the ground when the whistle blows is not relevant. If the play is ended by an official's judgement it has to be relevant. In a reviewable situation the ball SHOULD be spotted where you run out of bounds regardless of where the official originally thought you did, it should be spotted where the ball was when the body part went down regardless of where the official originally thought it was, and in the absence of either one of those two, where the ball was when the whistle was blown regardless of where the official thought it was. If the ball had only reached the 1 inch line before the whistle then I guess we would be out of luck and they could try and hide behind their defense. Not what happened. Blowing the play dead is what it is. It is THE act that ended the play just like crossing the boundry and the down by contact. What was the forward progress on that play relative to the whistle?

edited to add.....

If my assumption about the play ending on the whistle is not correct and it was simply by some lack of field action, then a player would be subject to a personal foul late hit in the field of play before the whistle is even blown because an official thought the play was over.
Click to expand...

they would not change a games outcome based on missed or bad calls by officials. That has never been done and every game has officials making wrong calls.
 
#12
#12
We see forward progress stops call all the time. QB takes the snap hands it off to the RB. D line gets through with the RB overwhelmed being pushed back out of control but not going down. Whistle is blown and the ball is spot where the RB got to. THIS was not what happened with us. The RB was hit, keeps moving forward. It’s tackle football. If he’s moving forward without going down the ref should let the play continue. It’s up to Purdue to tackle him to stop the play. They never did before he reached over the goal line. Not to mention the whistle sounded after the reach across the goal line. Horrible horrible call which *possibly* cost us the game.
 
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#14
#14
VolArmy74 said:
Our QB set a record for td passes in a bowl, had over 400 yards of offense and we scored 45 points in regulation, yet you blame the offense for the loss? Interesting take.
Click to expand...
I blame play selection for not winning the game in regulation.
It was very bizarre decisions not to set up for the game winning field goal with time outs in your pocket.
 
#15
#15
LWSVOL said:
they would not change a games outcome based on missed or bad calls by officials. That has never been done and every game has officials making wrong calls.
Click to expand...

So there is no official way to challenge the game administration by officials if they do not follow what is in the rulebook? I thought I remembered something from way back where they set aside defeats based on such breaches. I guess nowdays they only write letters of apology of something of that nature. Not talking about arguing a call, but the way the call is administered by officals, on field and replay.

In this instance whether or not the progress call made was or was not reviewable. It is either one or the other. IF it was and they informed coach it was not then I think that is a real issue. NOT talking about his judgment or right to make the call. Then that leads to when did the play end? When the official thought progress was stopped or when he blew it dead. I can't believe there is an unverifiable end to a play. It is my belief that without ever being down by contact the ball carrier extended the ball across the goal line before the whistle and if properly reviewed would have been called a TD. All we got during the game was it was a judgement call and not reviewable. The location of the ball when the play is legally dead is reviewable at the goal line.

The fact that they did not come back with an overturn, confirmed or stands announcement is troubling if it is in fact reviewable.

Thanks as always for your thoughtful and rational responses.
 
#16
#16
GUNTERSVOL said:
So there is no official way to challenge the game administration by officials if they do not follow what is in the rulebook? I thought I remembered something from way back where they set aside defeats based on such breaches. I guess nowdays they only write letters of apology of something of that nature. Not talking about arguing a call, but the way the call is administered by officals, on field and replay.

In this instance whether or not the progress call made was or was not reviewable. It is either one or the other. IF it was and they informed coach it was not then I think that is a real issue. NOT talking about his judgment or right to make the call. Then that leads to when did the play end? When the official thought progress was stopped or when he blew it dead. I can't believe there is an unverifiable end to a play. It is my belief that without ever being down by contact the ball carrier extended the ball across the goal line before the whistle and if properly reviewed would have been called a TD. All we got during the game was it was a judgement call and not reviewable. The location of the ball when the play is legally dead is reviewable at the goal line.

The fact that they did not come back with an overturn, confirmed or stands announcement is troubling if it is in fact reviewable.

Thanks as always for your thoughtful and rational responses.
Click to expand...

I don't recall ever seeing or hearing of a game being reversed or declared no contest due to an officials mistake. I will try to find if it ever happened. :)
 
#17
#17
GUNTERSVOL said:
I know you cannot file an official protest over a call, judgement or other wise, but if they did in fact inform our coach that the call was not reviewable that is a misapplication of the rules. Is that in play? Can't get a win, but could OFFICIALLY set aside the loss which would be as good as it gets.

If you run out of bounds when the whistle blows is not relevant. If your body part touches the ground when the whistle blows is not relevant. If the play is ended by an official's judgement it has to be relevant. In a reviewable situation the ball SHOULD be spotted where you run out of bounds regardless of where the official originally thought you did, it should be spotted where the ball was when the body part went down regardless of where the official originally thought it was, and in the absence of either one of those two, where the ball was when the whistle was blown regardless of where the official thought it was. If the ball had only reached the 1 inch line before the whistle then I guess we would be out of luck and they could try and hide behind their defense. Not what happened. Blowing the play dead is what it is. It is THE act that ended the play just like crossing the boundry and the down by contact. What was the forward progress on that play relative to the whistle?

edited to add.....

If my assumption about the play ending on the whistle is not correct and it was simply by some lack of field action, then a player would be subject to a personal foul late hit in the field of play before the whistle is even blown because an official thought the play was over.
Click to expand...

The henchmen in Vegas said to blow the whistle! Game over!
 
#18
#18
HuntlandVolinColo said:
The henchmen in Vegas said to blow the whistle! Game over!
Click to expand...

Naw, this is all on the officials on the field and in the replay booth. The guy blew the whistle way too early but still after the ball crossed the goal line. Evidently replay did not want to hurt his feelings and indicated the call was not reviewable. A huge HALF LIE.. the call is not reviewable but where he judged the ball to be when he blew the whistle near the goal line WAS.

The announcement we should have heard from the ref was, "the runner was never down by contact, and he extended the ball and broke the plane before the whistle therefore it is a touchdown. "

Why that is not the case needs explaining by the NCAA in the ever so satisfying letter of apology due to official error. They get to blow the whistle but not make up rules that say they can spot the ball wherever they like on progress plays. Not an inch more or inch less than where the ball was when the whistle blew.
 
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#19
#19
GUNTERSVOL said:
I know you cannot file an official protest over a call, judgement or other wise, but if they did in fact inform our coach that the call was not reviewable that is a misapplication of the rules. Is that in play? Can't get a win, but could OFFICIALLY set aside the loss which would be as good as it gets.

If you run out of bounds when the whistle blows is not relevant. If your body part touches the ground when the whistle blows is not relevant. If the play is ended by an official's judgement it has to be relevant. In a reviewable situation the ball SHOULD be spotted where you run out of bounds regardless of where the official originally thought you did, it should be spotted where the ball was when the body part went down regardless of where the official originally thought it was, and in the absence of either one of those two, where the ball was when the whistle was blown regardless of where the official thought it was. If the ball had only reached the 1 inch line before the whistle then I guess we would be out of luck and they could try and hide behind their defense. Not what happened. Blowing the play dead is what it is. It is THE act that ended the play just like crossing the boundry and the down by contact. What was the forward progress on that play relative to the whistle?

edited to add.....

If my assumption about the play ending on the whistle is not correct and it was simply by some lack of field action, then a player would be subject to a personal foul late hit in the field of play before the whistle is even blown because an official thought the play was over.
Click to expand...

MOVE ON.
 
#21
#21
GUNTERSVOL said:
Naw, this is all on the officials on the field and in the replay booth. The guy blew the whistle way too early but still after the ball crossed the goal line. Evidently replay did not want to hurt his feelings and indicated the call was not reviewable. A huge HALF LIE.. the call is not reviewable but where he judged the ball to be when he blew the whistle near the goal line WAS.

The announcement we should have heard from the ref was, "the runner was never down by contact, and he extended the ball and broke the plane before the whistle therefore it is a touchdown. "

Why that is not the case needs explaining by the NCAA in the ever so satisfying letter of apology due to official error. They get to blow the whistle but not make up rules that say they can spot the ball wherever they like on progress plays. Not an inch more or inch less than where the ball was when the whistle blew.
Click to expand...

I found this article on the very subject you raise.

Duke's David Cutcliffe says NCAA should allow results to be overturned
 
#23
#23
GUNTERSVOL said:
Naw, this is all on the officials on the field and in the replay booth. The guy blew the whistle way too early but still after the ball crossed the goal line. Evidently replay did not want to hurt his feelings and indicated the call was not reviewable. A huge HALF LIE.. the call is not reviewable but where he judged the ball to be when he blew the whistle near the goal line WAS.

The announcement we should have heard from the ref was, "the runner was never down by contact, and he extended the ball and broke the plane before the whistle therefore it is a touchdown. "

Why that is not the case needs explaining by the NCAA in the ever so satisfying letter of apology due to official error. They get to blow the whistle but not make up rules that say they can spot the ball wherever they like on progress plays. Not an inch more or inch less than where the ball was when the whistle blew.
Click to expand...

Maybe we need to give bigger McDonalds bags to the officiating crews!
 
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