Religion forum?

#201
#201
GBO2011 said:
Hey y'all I'm having some trouble with God right now. I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior and all that, I absolutely believe in a higher power. But I have noticed something strange with the Bible particularly the Old Testament. Adam and Eve had three children, Cain, Abel, and I forgot the third one's name which is not good on my part, but after Cain killed his brother and was exiled, it said he left with his wife.... The bible never talks about how she was born
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The best explanation I have heard is that there were many more sons and daughters, so most likely a sister or niece. The dna was basically pure at that point so there were much less danger in marrying then . As man populated the earth and after the flood, the chances of bad outcomes led to the laws against marrying close relatives. So glad to see you express your faith here. As you will see, there are a variety of opinions and interpretations on the truths contained in Gods word. I believe it in its entirety and believe when you search with a pure heart for His truths and wisdom , He will reveal His Word to you in a personal way. I reccomend that you read from both old and new testament both. And pray when you read that He will give you understanding. It is like milk for babes before the meat as you gro There are many references to the old testament prophets in the n.t. There are reading reccomendations for reading the Bible through in a year, maybe in the reference section or in front of your Bible. Remember it is not about feelings. It is faith. It is about salvation by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus , who paid our sin debt. It is about a new covenant. When He said it is finished hanging on the cross, the law and blood sacrifices for covering sin was ended for those accepting Jesus. By grace through faith not of ourselves lest any man boast.Same for kings and paupers. Don't get discouraged, but you will be tempted by satan. Remember . Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world . Judge what you hear and read by Gods word and let the Holy Spirit lead you.
Hope this helped and may God bless you in your new life in Christ.
 
#202
#202
Orangeslice13 said:
Very much like trying to prove a negative is difficult. My position isn’t easy to put in a short answer. My position is there is no scripture support for the concepts of mortals going to hell. First let me break down the why then I’ll let you have your say.

We are taught the we are corruptible in our current state and put on incorruptible/righteousness after the judgment. It happens once.

1 Cor 15
For this [a]perishable must put on [b]the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this [c]perishable puts on [d]the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.55 Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?”

(I could go down the rabbit hole on what is being said here but I’ll refrain for now)

So nobody is immortal and only the righteous/saved becomes immortal.
So when does this transformation happen for those who believe.
We call it the great white throne judgment.

Judgment at the Throne of God​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another [i]book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds.13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of themaccording to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Again. Not immortal unless you put on immortality. To put on immortality you have to be righteous. If you’re not righteous you’re corruptible when thrown into the fire which is the 2nd and final death.

The challenge becomes to find and scripture that says the unrighteous live on forever in torment. Because so far I haven’t been able to find it.

Your turn
Click to expand...
What would you say about Matthew 25:46?
Or mark 3 28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Why do you think the church started teaching eternal punishment?

I’m not sure what I believe. I’ve been looking into it recently so was interested to see what you thought. The more I look into the more I think eternal hell is a misrepresentation
 
#204
#204
marcusluvsvols said:
See I misremembered. Sorry. Thats why I didnt make that statement from a place of confidence. I thought you rejected some of the books attributed to Paul (there are so many). Thanks for clearing that up. I agree. Everything else is pretty much where I thought you were. I really like M. J. Keeping the Law as best you can is cool. I have nearly quit eating pork. It just doesn't appeal to me like it used to. Bacon smells so good though
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You’re all good with me.


Some things in Torah/law are a blessing to those who believe and some are a curse to those who don’t. Dietary restrictions are there because the G-d who made your body knows what you should and shouldn’t eat to be healthy.

Pork is just not a healthy food. Pigs genetically are the closest to humans in DNA. We actually use pig parts to replace human parts like heart valves. People that eat a lot of pork tend to have issues you would expect from eating other humans.

Eating pork just isn’t healthy. It’s almost like G-d knew.

lol
 
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#205
#205
Smokey123 said:
What would you say about Matthew 25:46?
Or mark 3 28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Why do you think the church started teaching eternal punishment?

I’m not sure what I believe. I’ve been looking into it recently so was interested to see what you thought. The more I look into the more I think eternal hell is a misrepresentation
Click to expand...

Eternal just means forever and speaks to permanence. It doesn’t necessarily mean ongoing. If you are erased from G-Ds memories then you never existed. (That’s a whole different conversation) and if you’re are denied life then that’s a punishment. We as humans even have a death penalty. If you’re dead forever then that’s an eternal punishment.

Another example.

Rev 11 seems to indicate eternal torment.
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [e]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [f]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [g]whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the [h]perseverance of the [i]saints who keep the commandments of God and [j]their faith in Jesus.

However the same phrase “the smoke of their torment rises forever “ has been used at the same time in history to describe those who dies in Sodom. And clearly there’s nothing still burning there. In fact we don’t know where that city was as it has been erased forever.


It’s important when studying these things to understand how words and phrases were used at the time they were written as opposed to what we understand them to mean now.

Good stuff.
 
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#206
#206
Smokey123 said:
What would you say about Matthew 25:46?
Or mark 3 28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Why do you think the church started teaching eternal punishment?

I’m not sure what I believe. I’ve been looking into it recently so was interested to see what you thought. The more I look into the more I think eternal hell is a misrepresentation
Click to expand...
I failed to address “how did the Greek beliefs in Hades creep into Christianity?”

The early church adopts pagan festivals to bring pagans into the church. That’s some of it. The Devine comedy Donte’s inferno has some influence that then lead to a later misunderstanding of Yeshua’s parable about Lazarus and the rich man. Everyone hearing messiah speak that day knew he was invoking the Greek concept of Hades. How do we know? Well…..there’s a great divide where the good and the bad can see each other and communicate that’s Greek. Father Abraham is prayed too as the ruler of the underworld. That’s Hades job in Greek religion. Father Abraham answered that prayer. (Can’t imagine G-d allowing that) then there’s the fact that this parable is prophetic.
The rich man was told that if Lazarus was sent back that his brothers would not believe. To Messiah who is the Rich men? That would be those running the temple, the Pharisees. And who would Lazarus be? Well that would be Lazarus…..who Messiah raised from the dead and the Pharisees didn’t believe.

You’d be amazed how many people thought it was a warning about hell and completely missed the prophetic.


But the short answer is it was An evolution over time.


Kinda the same was Judaism dropped Isiah 53 from its Torah reading because it is obvious that messiah is referenced there
 
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#207
#207
Orangeslice13 said:
My Referring to that guy as COC was just the denomination he represented. He was clearly not a fair representation of the denomination as a whole.

My children did attend a COC school in Chattanooga by the name of Boyd Buchanan. The education and extracurricular activities were top notch. I do not regret it at all. I was able to have honest conversations with my children as we went about the differences it the denomination beliefs and ours. I’ve always taught them that your beliefs don’t have to align with anyone else as you are only responsible for yourself at the judgment. It makes it easy to discuss things that way.
Have your beliefs and hold the dear while having respect for others and allowing them to do the same
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That's why I've always liked these topics with you. We differ on some things and we agree on some things, but we have similar beliefs overall, both prefer to use scripture for our understanding even though we can read the same thing differently, and have never thrown judgement or hatred at each other. TBO, I have found that people in the same congregation even can have opinions further apart than you as a messianic and I as a CoC. Someday we will meet in person, if not here then elsewhere. All too ofeten people lose sight of the great commandment. Our charge is not to convert. Only an individual acceptance can do that. We are only supposed to point them to a starting place and let God have it from there. We too, after all, are only human so I would not want someone's eternity based on something I force on them by my own level of understanding. God only charged that I share the seed. It is then that person's charge to seek their truth with God and he will give them understanding. He took the responsibility of giving the increase.
 
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#208
#208

Colossians 1:16​


“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”
 
#209
#209
Orangeslice13 said:
Very much like trying to prove a negative is difficult. My position isn’t easy to put in a short answer. My position is there is no scripture support for the concepts of mortals going to hell. First let me break down the why then I’ll let you have your say.

We are taught the we are corruptible in our current state and put on incorruptible/righteousness after the judgment. It happens once.

1 Cor 15
For this [a]perishable must put on [b]the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this [c]perishable puts on [d]the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.55 Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?”

(I could go down the rabbit hole on what is being said here but I’ll refrain for now)

So nobody is immortal and only the righteous/saved becomes immortal.
So when does this transformation happen for those who believe.
We call it the great white throne judgment.

Judgment at the Throne of God​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another [i]book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds.13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of themaccording to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Again. Not immortal unless you put on immortality. To put on immortality you have to be righteous. If you’re not righteous you’re corruptible when thrown into the fire which is the 2nd and final death.

The challenge becomes to find and scripture that says the unrighteous live on forever in torment. Because so far I haven’t been able to find it.

Your turn
Click to expand...
biblical terms used can be hell, hades, sheol, gehenna
Isaiah 66:24 The fire that shall not be quenched
Daniel 12:2 Some shall wake to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Rev 14:11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever.
Luke 16:25-26 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
 
#210
#210
me_grag53 said:
The best explanation I have heard is that there were many more sons and daughters, so most likely a sister or niece. The dna was basically pure at that point so there were much less danger in marrying then . As man populated the earth and after the flood, the chances of bad outcomes led to the laws against marrying close relatives. So glad to see you express your faith here. As you will see, there are a variety of opinions and interpretations on the truths contained in Gods word. I believe it in its entirety and believe when you search with a pure heart for His truths and wisdom , He will reveal His Word to you in a personal way. I reccomend that you read from both old and new testament both. And pray when you read that He will give you understanding. It is like milk for babes before the meat as you gro There are many references to the old testament prophets in the n.t. There are reading reccomendations for reading the Bible through in a year, maybe in the reference section or in front of your Bible. Remember it is not about feelings. It is faith. It is about salvation by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus , who paid our sin debt. It is about a new covenant. When He said it is finished hanging on the cross, the law and blood sacrifices for covering sin was ended for those accepting Jesus. By grace through faith not of ourselves lest any man boast.Same for kings and paupers. Don't get discouraged, but you will be tempted by satan. Remember . Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world . Judge what you hear and read by Gods word and let the Holy Spirit lead you.
Hope this helped and may God bless you in your new life in Christ.
Click to expand...
Thank you, that has been itching at me since I went to church last week
 
#211
#211
Orangeslice13 said:
Eternal just means forever and speaks to permanence. It doesn’t necessarily mean ongoing. If you are erased from G-Ds memories then you never existed. (That’s a whole different conversation) and if you’re are denied life then that’s a punishment. We as humans even have a death penalty. If you’re dead forever then that’s an eternal punishment.

Another example.

Rev 11 seems to indicate eternal torment.
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [e]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [f]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [g]whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the [h]perseverance of the [i]saints who keep the commandments of God and [j]their faith in Jesus.

However the same phrase “the smoke of their torment rises forever “ has been used at the same time in history to describe those who dies in Sodom. And clearly there’s nothing still burning there. In fact we don’t know where that city was as it has been erased forever.


It’s important when studying these things to understand how words and phrases were used at the time they were written as opposed to what we understand them to mean now.

Good stuff.
Click to expand...
So you think hell is essentially just your soul dying?
 
#212
#212
GVF said:
biblical terms used can be hell, hades, sheol, gehenna
Isaiah 66:24 The fire that shall not be quenched
Daniel 12:2 Some shall wake to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Rev 14:11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever.
Luke 16:25-26 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
Click to expand...
Gehenna was a literal place outside of Jerusalem
 
#213
#213
me_grag53 said:
A poor elderly widow was low on food and had little money . Faithfully believing God would provide she was praying rather loudly and passionately and her atheist neighbor had heard her prayers . Thinking he would play a joke on her , he left 3 bags of groceries on her porch the next night. When the widow discovered the food on her porch the next morning she began loudly and thankfully praising God. The atheist , watching for her reaction, immediately informed her that God had not provided the food , he had put it on her porch and laughed loudly. Upon hearing this she immediately replied. ' Thank you Lord for the food, and you made the devil pay for it!
Click to expand...

Page 1 of the religion thread

Them: trolls will ruin it

Also them: we gotta protect the Christians.

Me: what about the other religions that get mocked around here?

Them: [crickets]

Page 7 of the religion thread

Them: atheists are the devil
 
#216
#216
GVF said:
That's why I've always liked these topics with you. We differ on some things and we agree on some things, but we have similar beliefs overall, both prefer to use scripture for our understanding even though we can read the same thing differently, and have never thrown judgement or hatred at each other. TBO, I have found that people in the same congregation even can have opinions further apart than you as a messianic and I as a CoC. Someday we will meet in person, if not here then elsewhere. All too ofeten people lose sight of the great commandment. Our charge is not to convert. Only an individual acceptance can do that. We are only supposed to point them to a starting place and let God have it from there. We too, after all, are only human so I would not want someone's eternity based on something I force on them by my own level of understanding. God only charged that I share the seed. It is then that person's charge to seek their truth with God and he will give them understanding. He took the responsibility of giving the increase.
Click to expand...
Outstanding.
Messiah was clear and you clearly got it.
-seek first the kingdom of G-d then all things come to you
-worry about the plank in your own eyes instead of the sliver in othered
-by the standard you judge others, you will be judged.
-love G-d with all you are, love your fellow believers as yourself, this is the foundation the law is built on.

I think you do well. Not that my opinion of you matters. (It doesn’t)
 
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#217
#217
Smokey123 said:
So you think hell is essentially just your soul dying?
Click to expand...
Hell is a misnomer.
The lake of fire is a prison prepared for the immortal fallen angels. And 2nd death / execution of judgement for unrighteous happens there where the smoke of their destruction is forever. No more life after that.

Those who are blotted out of the book of life are forgotten by G-d and if your creator forgets you …..as he is outside of what we call time….then you never existed.

Humans are not immortal nor is the soul. You didn’t exist before your birth and you have no memory of that time because you didn’t exist. People who don’t put on incorruptible bodies can’t survive the lake of fire so they are consumed.

Only the righteous put on incorruptible bodies can’t survive….per Paul’s writings
 
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#218
#218
n_huffhines said:
Page 1 of the religion thread

Them: trolls will ruin it

Also them: we gotta protect the Christians.

Me: what about the other religions that get mocked around here?

Them: [crickets]

Page 7 of the religion thread

Them: atheists are the devil
Click to expand...
What religion would you like to discuss?
Gods word , the Christian Bible withstands rigid scrutiny on its own I believe.
I believe atheists are people who are deceived by satan , the god of this world , to believe there is no true God. They do the will of who they serve. i.e buy groceries.
And as I personally did not particularly appreciate the" espisito scores on the rebound "on a spiritual level, I understand it in context .
Many atheists turn to Christ and find grace and mercy ; salvation by grace through faith in the blood of Jesus shed on the cross to pay for the sins of whosoever will accept.
Again would you like to discuss a particular religion , atheism , humanism , ?
What do you believe?
 
#219
#219
FYI, if Slice quits conversing with you... These posts were moved to this thread from another thread today. He is banned from this thread. So don't take it personal. He's not bailing out on you.

I'll just leave it there and not make a comment that would get me banned as well.
 
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#220
#220
GVF said:
FYI, if Slice quits conversing with you... These posts were moved to this thread from another thread today. He is banned from this thread. So don't take it personal. He's not bailing out on you.

I'll just leave it there and not make a comment that would get me banned as well.
Click to expand...
His posts shouldn't be moved in here. I've addressed that.

Slice and a couple of others have gotten every other attempt at a religion thread shut down because they've resorted to nastiness and name calling. So if that describes the comment you were going to make, then sure.
 
#221
#221
Freak said:
Slice and a couple of others have gotten every other attempt at a religion thread shut down because they've resorted to nastiness and name calling. I'm sure he told you that part. So if that describes the comment you were going to make, then sure.
Click to expand...
I'm aware he can get testy. And yes, he did tell everything. We text outside of VN from time to time. Sounds like it was pretty equal contribution. I'm also aware he's a good person just the same. I'm CoC and he's "jewish" yet every religious discussion we've ever had has been 100% legit and civil and we get along great. But, I have no first hand knowledge of who started those arguments that they would trend personal. I will admit I thought better of what I was on my mind a few minutes ago, so I passed. I meant it more as an FYI if someone was looking for him to continue discussing he was not going to be able to do so in this thread.
 
#222
#222
GVF said:
I'm aware he can get testy. And yes, he did tell everything. We text outside of VN from time to time. Sounds like it was pretty equal contribution. I'm also aware he's a good person just the same. I'm CoC and he's "jewish" yet every religious discussion we've ever had has been 100% legit and civil and we get along great. But, I have no first hand knowledge of who started those arguments that they would trend personal. I will admit I thought better of what I was on my mind a few minutes ago, so I passed. I meant it more as an FYI if someone was looking for him to continue discussing he was not going to be able to do so in this thread.
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It wasn't ONLY him. And both of the culprits from the last thread were excluded from participating in this one.

Never said he wasn't a good person. Seems like a great guy. As do you.
 
#223
#223
Freak said:
It wasn't ONLY him. And both of the culprits from the last thread were excluded from participating in this one.

Never said he wasn't a good person. Seems like a great guy. As do you.
Click to expand...
I wasn't suggesting you weren't fair about it. Been here to long to know better from you. In my experience with him though as a whole and how he and I can go around the block with it and not share one cross word, I'd say he's more akin to Stallone in First Blood. But, it's kinda like a personal foul in football and retaliation. You got two way rules for a reason. The humurous side of me wants to know if it was that much worse than the PF. Asking for a friend. lol.
 
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