Recruiting Forum Off-Topic Thread II

[Darth_Shiveman]

When talking about whether or not baptism is necessary to receive salvation, all one really has to do is look at Ezekial 23:20.

It tells the whole story. Nuff said.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Jacket, can I ask one simple question on this subject of the requirement of baptism to be saved? Before I ask, I will say that God is the final judge on ALL things, so as for that person on his/her deathbed, He will judge. Personally, I believe there is plenty of water anywhere in this world and if someone is truly repentant and knows the necessity of obedience, then those involved (family, friends) will get that person to a body of water that's big enough to baptize them...even a big bathtub or small pool or something deep enough to go under.

Why does every single conversion to Christianity in the NT involve baptism for the removal/washing away of sins? Look at Saul's conversion in Acts 9 and 22...when Jesus blinded him on the road to Damascus, Saul/Paul was all ears and obeyed Jesus' command to go to the city and meet Ananias. He surely appeared to be repentant and understand he was doing wrong by persecuting the Christians. Why wasn't it good enough at that point to just believe and repent? Why did Ananias say, "And why tarriest though? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

The same can be said in Acts 2:38. When the Jews asked Peter what must they do to be saved from their wicked act of putting Jesus on the cross, Peter answered to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Why didn't he just say all they needed to do was repent and believe in Jesus? I believe the scriptures are clear that it's because you have to do those things as well as be baptized. We put ourselves in danger by just choosing certain verses to believe and follow...we have to use the whole law, just like Israel had to follow the whole law in the OT.

Since my baptism was not immersion, does that mean I'm denied salvation?

 

[JacketVol]

If you confess your sins and ask forgiveness you will be saved. If you don't have time to be baptized then I don't think it disqualified your salvation. Yes, it is good to obey and be baptized but if something were to happen to you before the church has a service to baptize, are you saying the person goes straight to hell? I would hope not or it becomes ceremonial just like the Pharisees that proceeded Christ.

 

[InVOLuntary]

If you confess your sins and ask forgiveness you will be saved. If you don't have time to be baptized then I don't think it disqualified your salvation. Yes, it is good to obey and be baptized but if something were to happen to you before the church has a service to baptize, are you saying the person goes straight to hell? I would hope not or it becomes ceremonial just like the Pharisees that proceeded Christ.

I think as Christians we get caught up too much in the symbolism and rituals. I think what's going on in our heart and living a Christ like life, having a personal, real relationship is what gets you into heaven. Jmo

 

[seaofORANGE22]

I think as Christians we get caught up too much in the symbolism and rituals. I think what's going on in our heart and living a Christ like life, having a personal, real relationship is what gets you into heaven. Jmo

That is what angered Jesus so much about the Pharisees. They were too caught up in following all the rules and rituals and thinking that they deserved something greater as a result.

Jesus paid it all. He offers hope to hopeless people and they are changed as a result.

 

[JacketVol]

Most of the people posting in this thread are really good people who are trying to be the best followers of Christ as they can. No worries about that. I appreciate each and everyone who has commented and how it has been handled. We truly can not know the mind of God as human beings but can try and follow our hearts and minds to have relationship with him. Thanks to everyone for keeping it a good discussion. I really do have hope knowing so many are still trying to find the way, the truth, and the light of the world.

 

[Vols4us]

This thread has been awesome of late.

I personally believe that baptism is necessary for the sanctification of all believers that have the ability and time to choose it before death. The lack of it stunts their growth as followers of Christ and may call into question their salvation decisions. But that is ultimately up to God to decide - he is God.

I prefer immersion. As a former Methodist of 40 years, I know the denomination provides for immersion, sprinkling and pouring. This is primarily due to cultural tradition throughout the world and that many early believers did not have ready access to bodies of water. The belief is that when the water that is used is blessed by the elder conducting the baptism, the baptism act receives Christ's blessing. I see evidence in many Methodists that were baptized by sprinkling and pouring they have received Christ and have lived sanctified lives. We will leave infant baptism for another time/post.

I accepted Christ as my savior and was baptized by immersion as an adolescent in a Southern Baptist church. I then joined the Methodist Church after college as it spoke to my heart, mind, and where I was at the time. i served in virtually every capacity as a lay member. Nearly a decade in I divorced and subsequently remarried. We desire to return to our shared SB roots. The local SB churches rejected our desire to serve despite having been counseled and remarried by a SB pastor in an SB church, even while knowing the reasons for the divorces were in line with scripture. They wanted our membership (and tithe), but not to serve or lead. This was over 30 years ago when times were different. So we joined the Methodist Church with our SB values and understanding of scripture. It was a blessed and cursed period as we rode the roller coaster of emotions and changing UMC doctrine and emphasis. In the later years our service became more as missionaries within our own church. In no way do I condemn the denomination for its struggles within - that is Satan's way of attacking all believers. It is also a reflection of what is happening throughout society. The Methodist Church was accepting and good to us when we needed it the most.

Meanwhile the attitudes and understanding of the SB church brothers/sisters in our area began to move away from self-created dogma toward understanding the intent of the words/actions of Christ and scripture. We have since landed at the perfect local SB church for us and could not be more joyful. They have welcomed us with great love, respect, and encouraged our service to the church and community. So all is well that ends well. It's not how you start as many times you have no control over that. However, it is how you finish as you make decisions that affect the result of your life's journey. We now are encouraged to share the story of mercy and forgiveness that are central to Christ's teachings.

What I see as the primary difference in Christian views and values is simply the interpretation of scripture. It seems to always come back to that. Do you believe it is the inerrant Word of God or do you believe it requires interpretation and is more guideline oriented in its presentation? The later leads to the "evolving" of views that more often than not reflect the culture around the believer. I believe scripture is inerrant and really don't need another person to tell me that. Once one sincerely and earnestly digs a little deeper at the well of Christ he/she tends to have more answers revealed by him. When one has been raised up by the gut wrenching faith decision made alone and in the dark that restores him/her to a place along side of the Savior of the world - well, everything changes for the better. That decision takes a person into eternity with Christ. Nobody else can give it to your or take it away from you. It was at this point that I learned what being crucified with Christ meant. I could no longer live joyfully without him being central to my every thought, word or deed. When I sin now it is because I break fellowship with him and go my own way. So I watch for that constantly.

 

[Skullbone]

We should at least be able to agree that the Bible does say we are to be baptized upon our confession of faith and repentance. It does. What it means to ones salvation in each case can be debated but the Bible undoubtedly calls for baptism. Jesus himself was baptized. If you are able at all you should do it because Jesus said so. I personally wouldn't want to chance not doing it. Not because I fear what other people think but because our Lord said to do it.

 

[Vol464]

Thanks for your thoughts. This is the most important thing we could talk about on these boards, but also one of the most controversial. So thanks for offering your thoughts.

Please take a look at the verses i posted earlier in regards to baptism. To me, it is pretty clear that baptism is required. And Not baptism alone, mind you. Just getting baptized to get baptized will do nothing but get you wet. And it's not the act itself. There is no special power in the water. It's the obedient submission to God's Will that grants you access to the saving power of Jesus's blood.

It may seem silly to think an act like that is required by God. But it's not me saying it. I humbly ask you to pray for an open mind and heart and Read the Bible, specifically the passages I mentioned earlier.

To sorta relate the why of it to something in the OT: God, through Elisha, told Naaman how to get rid of his leprosy. He told him to go dip in the Jordan River seven times. Naaman got mad. "Why?! Why the Jordan River?! There are much better rivers than that one back where I come from!!". But then Someone put him in check. If he had been asked to do something great to be cured, would he not have done it? Of course he would. Then why not just do this simple act asked of him by the prophet of God. And so he did. Was he cleansed after he came up the first time? No. The fifth? Sixth? No. Only after he had obeyed God and dipped the seven times was he cleansed of his leprosy.

Similarly, Baptism may seem silly or seem only like a symbol and we as humans may question why and how that could get us into Christ. But again, just read the words there in the Bible. And just like with Naaman, It's such a simple act of obedience and submission to God and His Words. It's the repentance (also required per the the Scruptures) that's the hard part, if you ask me.

Very well put Sam.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

Hows the keto going.

Well since you posted, and my reply that I didn't think I had really lost a lot this month (first month)because I wasn't able to exercise very much. I Had my first monthly weigh in today...I dropped 16 pounds. It amazes me how this diet works on me. My body chemistry must be near perfect for it.

 

[volssam]

The demons probably don't repent and ask to be saved. Not being a smart but this example has nothing to do with what any of us was saying. God is the same every day and Jesus has the power to save on a deathbed without a chance at baptism. Your replies have been fine. No need to apologize.

Thank you to everyone for participating with civility and decency in the discussion!

As far as if someone is saved if they desire it at the end of their life before they can find a place to be baptized, that is for God to decide. I hope He does save them. What I know is that the Bible says God is just. Therefore, He will make the right call on that.

But I would guess that hypothetical situation constitutes a very small percentage of cases. But again, that is up to God. And thankfully so. But Otherwise, all I can do is try to go by what the Bible tells me.

 

[volssam]

That is what angered Jesus so much about the Pharisees. They were too caught up in following all the rules and rituals and thinking that they deserved something greater as a result.

Jesus paid it all. He offers hope to hopeless people and they are changed as a result.

Definitely agree we shouldn't get caught up in rituals and just rote ceremonial robotic rules/laws. The NT makes an obvious shift to a heart-based relationship with Christ.

And that is a big issue Christ had with the Pharisees. I find it interesting that Jesus apparently didn't mind as much the what as much as the how. Check this verse out:

Matthew 23:23
"23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done,without neglecting the others."

The Pharisees had become robotic and about the rules more than the relationship. And that is a problem. We must guard against that too

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

Since my baptism was not immersion, does that mean I'm denied salvation?

With all due respect...

I believe the definition of the Greek word for baptism, baptizo, tells us exactly how we are to be baptized. Baptizo means to be immersed or submerged. To be immersed or submerged means to go completely under. This cannot occur with sprinkling. Also, I challenge you and Jacketvol to look at all the acts of baptism in the NT. Pay attention when God tells us the source of the water...it's usually a river or similar...we read that the person went down into the water to be baptized. So the question is: why did they need to go all the way into the body of water, if sprinkling was acceptable? Also, why are there no biblical examples of baptism via sprinkling?

Just a few things to ponder. Once again, these points are raised out of love and with sincerity. I'm not judging, but trying to let God's word be the judge.

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

If you confess your sins and ask forgiveness you will be saved. If you don't have time to be baptized then I don't think it disqualified your salvation. Yes, it is good to obey and be baptized but if something were to happen to you before the church has a service to baptize, are you saying the person goes straight to hell? I would hope not or it becomes ceremonial just like the Pharisees that proceeded Christ.

Once again with all due respect...

Why do you have to wait for the church to have a service to be baptized? In Acts 8 Phillip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch while they were traveling on a road in the desert. There was no special service. IMO, waiting to be baptized until there was a service is what would make it ceremonial. If you all of a sudden believe the truth of the gospel via study on a Monday, then you should be baptized immediately. Don't wait until a service on Wednesday night or Sunday morning. That's what Ananias was saying to Paul in Acts 22...why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins. Paul's sins were not washed away until baptism. These are 2 great examples that show us the necessity of baptism and the urgency to do it as soon as you believe.

 

[Ace]

Hello Ace! Thanks for your thoughtful response, and especially for using Scripture. That is where the true answers rest. And I believe we can't take part of
It here and there and try to plant our feet in and say here are the only answers. I believe we have to look at it as a whole inspired work.

So, with that in mind, let me say to your passage you posted, I agree! We are saved through faith. Absolutely. Does it mention baptism there at all? Nope. It says we are saved through faith.

Ok, now look at 1 Peter 3:21, where it says baptism now saves us. Does it mention faith there? Nope. It says baptism now saves us. Does that discount what Ephesians said about faith? I don't think it does.

Ok, now mark 16:16, words directly from Jesus's mouth, after his death and resurrection: "He that believes and is baptized will be saved, but he that does not believe will
be condemned."
So what is Jesus saying here? Does one have to believe to be saved? Absolutely. Does one have to also be baptized? I can't argue with what Jesus spoke there. He said believes and is baptized.

Ok Acts 2:37-38:
Peter (who is under the power of the Holy Spirit from earlier in chapter 2) preaches the sermon on the Day of Pentecost. They are cut to the heart (faith). And they asked "what shall we do?!" So Peter preaches about Jesus, they have conviction in their heart(they have faith) and they want to know what to do about it...verse 38: "Then Peter said to them, repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
So what were they to do? Repent and be baptized. Why? For the remission of their sins. Was repentance necessary? Peter, under the influence of The Holy Spirit says so. Was baptism necessary? Peter under the influence of The Holy Spirit says so.

We could talk about others. But to go back to my earlier point, I don't think we should pick one verse and make our stand on it. We should take the Bible, which I believe is God's Word, as a whole. What does it say saves us? Faith? Yes. Repentance? Yes. confession? (Romans 10:9-10, Matthew 10:32) yes. Baptism? Yes.

Again baptism without faith? Does nothing
Baptism without repentance? Does nothing.
Baptism without confession? Does nothing.

You seem to be very well trained in the teachings of Alexander Campbell. I do not mean that as an insult. I am only saying that he is the predominate American spokesperson for the doctrine you espouse.

Mark 16:16 based on the most reliable and recent texts was not an original part of the Gospel of Mark. If it is original the focus is still faith and not baptism. If baptism was essential for salvation, then the text should read "He who believes and is baptized will be saved and he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned."
Instead the focus is faith. Baptism is a symbol of our faith. A public declaration of faith. Just like in marriage, the ring is a public symbol of marriage. But a ring is not essential for marriage, instead marriage requires a pledge of devotion (faith).

The 1Peter passage is not about water baptism at all. The water did not save Noah, the ark saved Noah.

The emphasis of Acts 2 is repentance and faith, not baptism. They were baptized not to receive forgiveness, but because they had been forgiven. You take an aspirin for a headache. Why? Because you want a headache, no because you already have a headache. You get a ticket for speeding. Why? Because you want to speed, no because you were already speeding.

Water Baptism by believers is very important. I think you and I would agree that it is a vital part of a believers spiritual journey. Water baptism gives believers an opportunity to publicly announce their faith and allegiance to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

But when water baptism is elevated to the place of having regenative powers then it robs Jesus Christ of the glory that belongs only to Him in salvation.

 

[InVOLuntary]

With all due respect...

I believe the definition of the Greek word for baptism, baptizo, tells us exactly how we are to be baptized. Baptizo means to be immersed or submerged. To be immersed or submerged means to go completely under. This cannot occur with sprinkling. Also, I challenge you and Jacketvol to look at all the acts of baptism in the NT. Pay attention when God tells us the source of the water...it's usually a river or similar...we read that the person went down into the water to be baptized. So the question is: why did they need to go all the way into the body of water, if sprinkling was acceptable? Also, why are there no biblical examples of baptism via sprinkling?

Just a few things to ponder. Once again, these points are raised out of love and with sincerity. I'm not judging, but trying to let God's word be the judge.

With all due respect I 100% disagree. The ACT of being placed underwater is simply symbolism of cleansing one's soul. The water doesn't actually wash off sin. This is why we don't lure new people to Christ. We tend to get caught up in all the rituals associated with traditions. I believe Christ would be frustrated when he's sees his followers focusing on symbolism instead of His real message.

 

[Catbone]

This brings me back to my point about it being so confusing

 

[volssam]

You seem to be very well trained in the teachings of Alexander Campbell. I do not mean that as an insult. I am only saying that he is the predominate American spokesperson for the doctrine you espouse.

Mark 16:16 based on the most reliable and recent texts was not an original part of the Gospel of Mark. If it is original the focus is still faith and not baptism. If baptism was essential for salvation, then the text should read "He who believes and is baptized will be saved and he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned."
Instead the focus is faith. Baptism is a symbol of our faith. A public declaration of faith. Just like in marriage, the ring is a public symbol of marriage. But a ring is not essential for marriage, instead marriage requires a pledge of devotion (faith).

The 1Peter passage is not about water baptism at all. The water did not save Noah, the ark saved Noah.

The emphasis of Acts 2 is repentance and faith, not baptism. They were baptized not to receive forgiveness, but because they had been forgiven. You take an aspirin for a headache. Why? Because you want a headache, no because you already have a headache. You get a ticket for speeding. Why? Because you want to speed, no because you were already speeding.

Water Baptism by believers is very important. I think you and I would agree that it is a vital part of a believers spiritual journey. Water baptism gives believers an opportunity to publicly announce their faith and allegiance to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

But when water baptism is elevated to the place of having regenative powers then it robs Jesus Christ of the glory that belongs only to Him in salvation.

Thanks again for the thoughtful response, sir.

I disagree with the last paragraph, as I don't think it robs Him of anything, if it His Word that we are following. On the contrary, it brings Him glory if we are willing to follow His every command.

I have heard many of the arguments that you put forth before. But I don't see how those points can be made if you just read the Scripture.

1 Peter 3:21 pretty plainly says baptism now saves you

Acts 2:38 with all humble respectfulness, it appears you disregarded what it says and changed the meaning of it. It says repent and be baptized for the remission of
Your sins.

Mark 16:16. It says he who believes and is baptized will be saved. Not he who believes will be saved. He who believes and is baptized. The last part where it just says he who does not believe will be condemned is simple. He who does not believe will have no reason to get baptized, as he doesn't believe in Jesus to begin with. So he wouldn't be interested in the salvation He offers. So why be baptized?

Acts 22;16 (mentioned by OGBabyAvi earlier) says arise and be baptized and wash away your sins.

1 Cor 15-1-4 mentions the gospel that saves us. Then goes on to explain what that gospel is, that Jesus died and was buried, and was resurrected. Then you go to Romans 6:1-4.(and actually all of Romans 6) What does baptism represent? Death burial and resurrection. And that point of baptism is when the old man of sin is put to death and we are raised a new man. At that point. Not before.

I don't discount faith as being essential to salvation. It absolutely is. The Bible says it is. But the Bible also says
Baptism is. The Bible also says repentance is. I don't disregard any of it. It all carries equal importance to me because it is all is stated in the Word.

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

With all due respect I 100% disagree. The ACT of being placed underwater is simply symbolism of cleansing one's soul. The water doesn't actually wash off sin. This is why we don't lure new people to Christ. We tend to get caught up in all the rituals associated with traditions. I believe Christ would be frustrated when he's sees his followers focusing on symbolism instead of His real message.

It's not symbolism...it's a command. I don't understand why anyone would let such a simple act possibly hinder that person from possibly going to heaven, if he/she lives a faithful life in obedience to God's commands. Why do you want to wait until Judgement Day and God says depart from me, I never knew you, because you weren't willing to be fully submissive to all of His commands?

Why was Jesus himself baptized? He was perfect, without sin, yet He was baptized by John. Why? Because He wanted to set the example for what His disciples (Christians) would have to do. The answers are in the Scriptures and are black and white via direct command and plenty of examples. We just have to open our eyes and see them.

 

[InVOLuntary]

It's not symbolism...it's a command. I don't understand why anyone would let such a simple act possibly hinder that person from possibly going to heaven, if he/she lives a faithful life in obedience to God's commands. Why do you want to wait until Judgement Day and God says depart from me, I never knew you, because you weren't willing to be fully submissive to all of His commands?

Why was Jesus himself baptized? He was perfect, without sin, yet He was baptized by John. Why? Because He wanted to set the example for what His disciples (Christians) would have to do. The answers are in the Scriptures and are black and white via direct command and plenty of examples. We just have to open our eyes and see them.

I was baptized just not up to your standards. It may not say specifically that being sprinkled is ok but it doesn't say it's not an acceptable form either. You are missing the whole point of baptism getting caught up on procedure. With all due respect imo that's as bad as not getting baptized. I find it very hard to believe when I meet my maker he says "InVOLuntary, you've done the best that I could have expected of you but I'm sorry, you're going to have to spend the rest of eternity in hell because you were sprinkled. I know that when you were baptized, your heart was where it needed to be but we have strict rules here. Sorry but, bye".

This is precisely why you see churches moving from denominational affiliation. It's a concerning and presumptuous way to teach Jesus. And, I say that as a Methodist which has more "methods" than about any church.

 

[Catbone]

Are there actually different levels of heaven and hell?

 

[JacketVol]

With all due respect...

I believe the definition of the Greek word for baptism, baptizo, tells us exactly how we are to be baptized. Baptizo means to be immersed or submerged. To be immersed or submerged means to go completely under. This cannot occur with sprinkling. Also, I challenge you and Jacketvol to look at all the acts of baptism in the NT. Pay attention when God tells us the source of the water...it's usually a river or similar...we read that the person went down into the water to be baptized. So the question is: why did they need to go all the way into the body of water, if sprinkling was acceptable? Also, why are there no biblical examples of baptism via sprinkling?

Just a few things to ponder. Once again, these points are raised out of love and with sincerity. I'm not judging, but trying to let God's word be the judge.

I just feel so bad that the cross and blood of Christ is not enough for the remission of sins. I have been baptized and I get the direction as a thing to do. But, you can go under water 100 times and Christ told Nic that you have to be born again. It is a directive but so is loving others over yourself and many really struggle with that. I just have more faith in the power of the death of Christ than some others I guess.

 

[JacketVol]

Additional note here: The Tennesseean just equated all Christians to the same thing as radical Islamic Imans and Muslims. That paper needs more than water or anything else and I say that tongue and cheek. It is just so sad and stupid. That rag is horrible.

Now back to the actual theological discussion.

 

[volgirl99]

Are there actually different levels of heaven and hell?

According to Dante there is

 

[IndianaVolunteer]

What do LebVol, CrunchingTheVolz, and Bruin all have in common?

They're all Leb.