Recruiting Emphasis

[Vols4us]

Sorry for the length of this in advance. However, most of us in baseball forum don't mind deeper analysis. There have been many threads started based on current targets and commitments as well as the "what is wrong with the program" thought process. I am interested in the thoughts of those of you that actually follow the program closely on the recruiting territory emphasis as well as type of players.

Here we are at the bottom of the barrel after 4 years, which includes getting beat by UK and Mizzou when they have worse weather to deal with than we do. Something is wrong. Other than for a few, the players are not developing as they should while making middle school level mistakes at times. That tells me these are the wrong Jimmies and Joes, in addition to the possibility the coaching needs improvement. CDS had more access to warm weather recruits that played year round in Cali and the southwest when he coached out there. Now he primarily has TN and the deep south for that talent, which is hard to get when all of the other schools in the SEC and ACC have already been in those doors for years.

My thoughts are that CDS or his replacement needs to continue to recruit the state well. This needs to be for guys that are going to school to be student athletes instead of those that are biding time for pro entry. He also needs to supplement the roster with quality jucos. It is amazing to me they do not control the best the come out of Walters State CC and Columbia State CC, two perineal Top 50 juco programs. There are a handful of players from those two schools that make rosters in the SEC each year. UT should be first in line as well high up on the list with other quality juco programs.

The coach needs to think about what would entice a player in FL or GA or wherever south of UT to want to put up with the colder climate and less support for baseball - unless they are not being sought after by the top programs. That thought process tells me that he should emphasize 4 year guys with potential that are flying under the radar of most programs instead of going after all of these MLB draftable guys and wasting effort. They need to sell to players that are attracted to the top academic programs UT has to offer.

Finally I would work north of the Mason Dixon line more where most of MLB baseball is played. Some of the northern recruits that can really play the game would probably love to play in Knoxville and the SEC given the chance. To them our climate is balmy and nice. Somehow a good number of them have found their way onto the rosters of #1 at Vandy along with UK and Mizzou. With Butch's HS contacts in Ohio, Indiana and Michigan there should be access to quality players in baseball crazy areas all over those states. Cincinnati Moeller HS is a perennial Top 10 program as an example. UK has two from them on their roster.

Would really like to hear your comments on what you would do to recruit quality players to UT. The program clearly needs a talent upgrade.

 

[Nocleats]

" Somehow a good number of them have found their way onto the rosters of #1 at Vandy"

Starts with his ability to get pitchers to know he IS going to get them into MLB and ready to play at the big level. They trust that he will develop them as pitchers and he will never use up their arms.. Think he pre determined last week in one game that no pitcher would go more than 2 innings.. Secondly the Vandy coach has developed strong ties in the Northeast where many great ball players are located.

 

[fryeguy93]

Good post.

It was funny in Lexington this weekend as it further confirmed what I had thought for several years.

EVERY state thinks the baseball talent in their state is great. I had a few people in the stands telling me how great high school baseball is in Kentucky and believing that UK should be doing far better.

Perhaps we are thinking and doing the same thing in Tennessee.

Perhaps high school and traveling team baseball is not nearly as good as we think it is. Perhaps Farragut dominates a state that is relatively week in baseball. Let's face it, the Farragut guys are not and have not tore it up in minor and majors.

Expanding out recruiting is likely the best thing we can do. Our glory days had teams made up of a few talented local players but a ton of guys from California, Georgia, Kentucky, Indiana and such.

Vanderbilt has had a lot of great guys they can offer full scholarships to from the northeast and upper Midwest.

I've said in prior posts that the Farragut guys seem to lack a lot of natural talent but are well coaches and have played A LOT. Without the natural talent, there's a ceiling. And if they play too much without a natural love for the game then burnout is a real possibility.

I don't know how interested they were, but UT failed to sign Trevor Clifton from Heritage or Will Crowe from Pigeon Forge. Clifton signed with Kentucky but went pro instead and Crowe went to South Carolina. Out of the three (Clifton, Crowe and Serrano) Clifton has done apparently well in minors. Crowe has done well at SC and Serrano has struggled to be blunt at UT. Yet their senior years, Serrano had the lion's share of the publicity mainly because he pitched at Farragut.

Perhaps the staff should realize the numbers as demonstrated by Farragut guys should be adjusted do their situation and past performances.

I am concerned that a CDS that is trying to save his job will go heavy on JUCO guys next season. The team will be better but this is the same poison pill that shortened Delmonico's tenure. JUCO baseball is a far different animal that JUCO football and basketball and is a legitimate tool, but building a program who will be a part of the program for only 1 or 2 seasons is a slippery slope.

 

[Vols4us]

" Somehow a good number of them have found their way onto the rosters of #1 at Vandy"

Starts with his ability to get pitchers to know he IS going to get them into MLB and ready to play at the big level. They trust that he will develop them as pitchers and he will never use up their arms.. Think he pre determined last week in one game that no pitcher would go more than 2 innings.. Secondly the Vandy coach has developed strong ties in the Northeast where many great ball players are located.

I know that being from NH and playing college ball in Ohio helps him get those guys since he's worked the northeast and mid-west for decades. I wonder if our program would not be better served with that emphasis or a replacement bringing that emphasis?

 

[OldTimer]

Bottom line is Tennessee is a tough school to recruit for baseball. It has been done and can again but there are a lot of obstacles in the way......

Unless you are from Knoxville or surrounding areas, there are preferred programs closer to your hometown.

EDIT: good post OP. Hopefully it doesn't turn into a flame fest for a few.

 

[Vols4us]

Good post.

It was funny in Lexington this weekend as it further confirmed what I had thought for several years.

EVERY state thinks the baseball talent in their state is great. I had a few people in the stands telling me how great high school baseball is in Kentucky and believing that UK should be doing far better.

Perhaps we are thinking and doing the same thing in Tennessee.

Perhaps high school and traveling team baseball is not nearly as good as we think it is. Perhaps Farragut dominates a state that is relatively week in baseball. Let's face it, the Farragut guys are not and have not tore it up in minor and majors.

Expanding out recruiting is likely the best thing we can do. Our glory days had teams made up of a few talented local players but a ton of guys from California, Georgia, Kentucky, Indiana and such.

Vanderbilt has had a lot of great guys they can offer full scholarships to from the northeast and upper Midwest.

I've said in prior posts that the Farragut guys seem to lack a lot of natural talent but are well coaches and have played A LOT. Without the natural talent, there's a ceiling. And if they play too much without a natural love for the game then burnout is a real possibility.

I don't know how interested they were, but UT failed to sign Trevor Clifton from Heritage or Will Crowe from Pigeon Forge. Clifton signed with Kentucky but went pro instead and Crowe went to South Carolina. Out of the three (Clifton, Crowe and Serrano) Clifton has done apparently well in minors. Crowe has done well at SC and Serrano has struggled to be blunt at UT. Yet their senior years, Serrano had the lion's share of the publicity mainly because he pitched at Farragut.

Perhaps the staff should realize the numbers as demonstrated by Farragut guys should be adjusted do their situation and past performances.

I am concerned that a CDS that is trying to save his job will go heavy on JUCO guys next season. The team will be better but this is the same poison pill that shortened Delmonico's tenure. JUCO baseball is a far different animal that JUCO football and basketball and is a legitimate tool, but building a program who will be a part of the program for only 1 or 2 seasons is a slippery slope.

Really good thoughts. I tend to agree now on the in-state talent thing. I think it has improved a bunch, but that may not mean as much as we think it does. I like juco for supplementing needs - not like MS. State's done with adding a dozen of them.

I agree on Clifton and Crowe. CDS had no chance with Crowe. Know the situation there. He is originally from SC and his family moved to the area later on in his life. If he had been offered first round money he was going pro, otherwise it always was going to be USCe. By the way, blew his elbow out. Looks like Tommy John for him. He has been a workhorse for them up to having the issue.

 

[ShowmeVols]

The coach needs to think about what would entice a player in FL or GA or wherever south of UT to want to put up with the colder climate and less support for baseball - unless they are not being sought after by the top programs. That thought process tells me that he should emphasize 4 year guys with potential that are flying under the radar of most programs instead of going after all of these MLB draftable guys and wasting effort. They need to sell to players that are attracted to the top academic programs UT has to offer.

Finally I would work north of the Mason Dixon line more where most of MLB baseball is played. Some of the northern recruits that can really play the game would probably love to play in Knoxville and the SEC given the chance. To them our climate is balmy and nice. Somehow a good number of them have found their way onto the rosters of #1 at Vandy along with UK and Mizzou. With Butch's HS contacts in Ohio, Indiana and Michigan there should be access to quality players in baseball crazy areas all over those states. Cincinnati Moeller HS is a perennial Top 10 program as an example. UK has two from them on their roster.

Would really like to hear your comments on what you would do to recruit quality players to UT. The program clearly needs a talent upgrade.

The three programs of about our latitude that have had the best decade--Louisville, Vanderbilt, and UVA--have done very well with northern players.
McDonnell gets a lot of players from Ill, Ohio, and Indiana.
Corbin has done great with New England recruits.
O'Connor gets good players from Pennsylvania, New York, and NJ.
And of course, all of them get the best of their in-state talent.

I think our long-term recruiting strategy should begin with 1) owning the east half of Tennessee, 2) establishing Walters as our feeder/warehouse equivalent to what LSU-Eunice is for LSU, and 3) picking an area up north, maybe Ohio and western PA, where the best players will think the weather in Knoxville is nice and will see playing at UT as a better option than anything in state.

California has tons of D1-caliber players who can't find D1's to play for in state, but most of the ones capable of leading an SEC team can and do play closer to home. California will always have an abundant supply of emergency replacement-level players, but I don't think the state is a long-term solution to our needs, However, I certainly understand why CDS recruited there when he needed to re-build.

 

[OldTimer]

Keep in mind with "out of state talent" the cost increases tremendously for kids and parents due to the crazy out of state tuition fees......this is where Vanderbilt has a huge advantage for those northern guys.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Keep in mind with "out of state talent" the cost increases tremendously for kids and parents due to the crazy out of state tuition fees......this is where Vanderbilt has a huge advantage for those northern guys.

I believe it's been said but I can't remember, why or how, that Vandy is able to offer "more" scholarships or more lucrative scholarships?

 

[OldTimer]

I believe it's been said but I can't remember, why or how, that Vandy is able to offer "more" scholarships or more lucrative scholarships?

I posted it yesterday, they have an endowment for academic and need based scholarships. They are private so they can almost award anything from the endowment. And "need based" does not necessarily mean low income either. Example, David Price was a walk-on and received academic and need based money for a full ride and it didn't count against the 11.7 scholarship rule.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

I posted it yesterday, they have an endowment for academic and need based scholarships. They are private so they can almost award anything from the endowment. And "need based" does not necessarily mean low income either. Example, David Price was a walk-on and received academic and need based money for a full ride and it didn't count against the 11.7 scholarship rule.

Are public schools unable to pull out of their endowments for this purpose?

 

[ShowmeVols]

It's true that Vanderbilt has a big endowment and offers a lot of need-based aid, which allows them to give more baseball money to top recruits without financial need, but it is not true that the middle and upper middle class kids who make up most of the high school travel ball population can attend there for free or anything close to it.

Go to their web site and punch some numbers into their net price calculator. I punched in my numbers to send a kid there, and it would be much more expensive than in-state rates at UT.

UT has its own advantages like using the academic common market to offer in state rates to residents of 15 southern states who choose to major in a field UT offers that is not offered in their home states.

If you start with the assumption that it's hopeless, you'll prove yourself right.

 

[Vols4us]

The three programs of about our latitude that have had the best decade--Louisville, Vanderbilt, and UVA--have done very well with northern players.
McDonnell gets a lot of players from Ill, Ohio, and Indiana.
Corbin has done great with New England recruits.
O'Connor gets good players from Pennsylvania, New York, and NJ.
And of course, all of them get the best of their in-state talent.

I think our long-term recruiting strategy should begin with 1) owning the east half of Tennessee, 2) establishing Walters as our feeder/warehouse equivalent to what LSU-Eunice is for LSU, and 3) picking an area up north, maybe Ohio and western PA, where the best players will think the weather in Knoxville is nice and will see playing at UT as a better option than anything in state.

California has tons of D1-caliber players who can't find D1's to play for in state, but most of the ones capable of leading an SEC team can and do play closer to home. California will always have an abundant supply of emergency replacement-level players, but I don't think the state is a long-term solution to our needs, However, I certainly understand why CDS recruited there when he needed to re-build.

This is how I see it as well. On the northern recruiting grounds push they have to work out the out of state tuition cost/scholarship issue so it works smoothly. It might be a problem in an occasional case of lower income, but it appears to not be getting in the way much now with the number of guys CDS is bringing in from out of state. A good number of them have been recruited strongly by other schools. I just think that he is getting the guys the best programs have already picked over even though they have good reps as players. I want to see more emphasis in a few states that can be good feeders for all sports -where they take advantage of the common push and build the feeders.

 

[therickbol]

I posted it yesterday, they have an endowment for academic and need based scholarships. They are private so they can almost award anything from the endowment. And "need based" does not necessarily mean low income either. Example, David Price was a walk-on and received academic and need based money for a full ride and it didn't count against the 11.7 scholarship rule.

Sonny Gray was actually on a football scholarship and did not count against the 11.7 rule.

 

[OldTimer]

It's true that Vanderbilt has a big endowment and offers a lot of need-based aid, which allows them to give more baseball money to top recruits without financial need, but it is not true that the middle and upper middle class kids who make up most of the high school travel ball population can attend there for free or anything close to it.

Go to their web site and punch some numbers into their net price calculator. I punched in my numbers to send a kid there, and it would be much more expensive than in-state rates at UT.

UT has its own advantages like using the academic common market to offer in state rates to residents of 15 southern states who choose to major in a field UT offers that is not offered in their home states.

If you start with the assumption that it's hopeless, you'll prove yourself right.

Just wanted to add 2 things, and not trying to not pick at your response and I do agree, some probably do pay a lot to go to Vandy and play BB:

1. On the Calculator for Vandy tuition, plug in that your son throws 93 with a nasty slider and change, and watch the tuition fees drop.......

2. Have you seen the common market majors, they are pretty far out there in terms of degrees. Yes it will defer out of state tuition but you better not want to major in accounting, business, sports management, or anything else in the norm.

An article written by Aaron Fitt in 2012 noted that an SEC coach, not named, said Vandy was basically playing with 30 scholarships.

One thing about Vandy then I'm never going to say anything else, the quality of kid from an educational standpoint needs to be very solid. Yes, they probably give some leeway to athletes however you better be well above average than the normal student.

We can still compete with them, I'm not saying we can't. There are a lot of good ball players out there......we may just have to be better at developing them.

Enough Vandy talk..........GBO!

 

[TNDRIVER]

Hire an assistant from MTSU, Columbia, or even Motlow would help in Middle Tennessee, but MLB and the Players Association hasn't done CDS any favors. Maybe get signing day for Baseball moved up so that the LOIs are signed before the declaration of intent to enter the draft would help. Memory serves me right CDS had some potentially great recruits and MLB's draft took several. Who says the NCAA has to defer so much in this instant. Without MLB moving its draft up again or changing their on rule that at the least get the kids on campus for 2 seasons. Just a thought, since it is so much harder to rebuild in baseball than maintain.

 

[vol66]

While I have somewhat of a grasp on the financial implications of the different scholarship opportunities I'd like to point out something...

Vanderbilt has two players on it's roster that are freshmen from Tennessee.

Tennessee has one freshman from Tennessee.

Kentucky has one freshman from Mount Juliet.

UGA has none and only one player, a RS senior, from Tennessee at all.

MSU has one freshman from Tennessee on the roster, from Dyer County.

Ole Miss has one freshman from Germantown...3 total Tennessee players on their whole roster.

South Carolina has Will Crow...that's it from Tennessee.

Bama has no Freshman from Tennessee and only one player with Tennessee ties, a Jr. from Walter's State CC.

Auburn has Anderson County freshman Hunter Tackett on the roster, he's played in 17 of 41 games, has a .239 average...he's the only Tennessee kid on the entire roster.

LSU has no Tennessee kids on the roster.

Same for Mizzou.

Same for TAMU

Same for UF

Same for Arkansas.

That's 7 kids that are freshmen at SEC schools this year from the state of Tennessee.

Same for Louisville

Same for UVA

Same for Virginia Tech

Georgia Tech has one kid, a junior from Murfreesboro, had a good year...last season.

North Carolina has a kid from Dobbins Bennett, through Walters State, he's played in 25 games, he's batting .210.

 

[ShowmeVols]

Just wanted to add 2 things, and not trying to not pick at your response and I do agree, some probably do pay a lot to go to Vandy and play BB:

1. On the Calculator for Vandy tuition, plug in that your son throws 93 with a nasty slider and change, and watch the tuition fees drop.......

2. Have you seen the common market majors, they are pretty far out there in terms of degrees. Yes it will defer out of state tuition but you better not want to major in accounting, business, sports management, or anything else in the norm.

An article written by Aaron Fitt in 2012 noted that an SEC coach, not named, said Vandy was basically playing with 30 scholarships.

One thing about Vandy then I'm never going to say anything else, the quality of kid from an educational standpoint needs to be very solid. Yes, they probably give some leeway to athletes however you better be well above average than the normal student.

We can still compete with them, I'm not saying we can't. There are a lot of good ball players out there......we may just have to be better at developing them.

Enough Vandy talk..........GBO!

1. The need-based and merit-based financial aid awards are made without input from the coaches.

2. Yeah, some of the common market majors like nuclear engineering and sacred music aren't suitable for many ballplayers, but logistics is a popular and practical major for common market students from a good number of the participating states.

 

[Mike Rapp]

Sonny Gray was actually on a football scholarship and did not count against the 11.7 rule.

This is not true. It is against NCAA rules to award scholarships in sports that a student athlete does not compete in.

 

[Backwards K]

This is not true. It is against NCAA rules to award scholarships in sports that a student athlete does not compete in.

The rule may have changed but it used to be that if an athlete competed in more than one sport and one of those sports was football, the scholarship had to go against the football number.

 

[BruinVol]

The rule may have changed but it used to be that if an athlete competed in more than one sport and one of those sports was football, the scholarship had to go against the football number.

Correct but gray didn't play football

 

[Backwards K]

Correct but gray didn't play football

True. I didn't even notice that y'all were talking about Sonny. BTW: Vandy had a great marketing campaign for selling baseball tickets when Gray was there: "Sonny every weekend."

Back to UT baseball: Vols struggling mightily this year and they will probably have to replace:

Pitchers: Bret Marks, Drake Owenby,Andrew Lee, Peter Lehnstrom, and possibly Andy Cox

Hitters: Christin Stewart, AJ Simcox,Andrew Lee (again) and possibly Vincent Jackson.

There are no players on the roster to replace most of those guys and it is not reasonable to think any JUCO or true freshman can come in and pick up that slack. Senzel, Pruett, and Houser are the only guys returning that are hitting above .230. Plus Vols could lose their entire weekend rotation and their top 2 relievers.

 

[therickbol]

This is not true. It is against NCAA rules to award scholarships in sports that a student athlete does not compete in.

It is a fact.

 

[Mike Rapp]

The rule may have changed but it used to be that if an athlete competed in more than one sport and one of those sports was football, the scholarship had to go against the football number.

Sonny Gray did not play football at Vanderbilt. Wanted to, but was not given that option.

 

[whobethis16]

Sonny Gray did not play football at Vanderbilt. Wanted to, but was not given that option.

Did he ever play a down? Helton kept his football scholarship after his injury and leaving the team. I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

Or at least dress out or anything.