Question about defense/LBs and LB recruiting

#51
#51
Probably_in_Class said:
Honestly though, that could have just as easily been a nickleback...
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True, but a nickleback wouldn't be as versatile as someone with Nakobe Dean's greater size and strength, who also happens to have a nickleback's speed. The more roles a player can fill, the higher his value. As you said above, I disagree with very little of the Professor's lecture, other than to the extent he is alleging that we are not trying to get elite players at inside linebacker, or that inside linebacker play doesn't matter. It was one of the main weaknesses of our defense last year. Everybody knows as far as NFL value, the highest value players are 1. quarterback (by a wide margin); 2. Players who protect the quarterback (tackles generally being the highest paid); and 3. pass rushers who can get after the QB. I simply reject the insinuation that recruiting those 3 types of players to the exclusion of others is a viable recruiting strategy. It's not, and further, it's not what Heupel and Co. are doing, they want elite players at every position. We're simply doing a better job at recruiting edge guys right now. I don't understand the drive some fans have to create fantastical narratives, like "linebackers don't matter", just because we aren't getting as many good ones at the moment. That will change in time. As soon as we start landing a few Nakobe Dean types, no one will be pushing the exceedingly stupid narrative that linebackers aren't important anymore.
 
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#52
#52
Vol8188 said:
What did we agree on?
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You called me out for essentially making s**t up about the number of linebackers vs. edge players taken in the 2022 draft and asked what my source was. Ever since I responded that it was NFL.com's draft board, and gave you a link, you have refused to either go raise hell with NFL.com about it, OR just take your L. Instead, you've tried to move the goalpost to No. 1 picks at various positions (about 75% of the time it's a QB, and the remainder I would posit are too small a sample size over too great a time to draw any conclusion from), and I had never brought that up and neither do I particularly give a damn about it honestly.
 
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#53
#53
unfrozencvmanvol said:
You called me out for essentially making s**t up about the number of linebackers vs. edge players taken in the 2022 draft and asked what my source was. Ever since I responded that it was NFL.com's draft board, and gave you a link, you have refused to either go raise hell with NFL.com about it, OR just take your L. Instead, you've tried to move the goalpost to No. 1 picks at various positions (about 75% of the time it's a QB, and the remainder I would posit are too small a sample size over too great a time to draw any conclusion from), and I had never brought that up and neither do I particularly give a damn about it honestly.
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The entire thing the whole time has been which is valued more. Obviously the draft proves edge defenders are much more valued. The goal post has not moved. You found one source that you believe backs your claim because you don’t understand that “edge” and “end” are the same thing.

You’ll find just as many sources listing Walker, Hutchinson, and Kayvon as “ends” as you will “edges”. Your lack of understanding doesn’t change any of the facts here.
 
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#54
#54
Vol8188 said:
The entire thing the whole time has been which is valued more. Obviously the draft proves edge defenders are much more valued. The goal post has not moved. You found one source that you believe backs your claim because you don’t understand that “edge” and “end” are the same thing.

You’ll find just as many sources listing Walker, Hutchinson, and Kayvon as “ends” as you will edges”. You’re lack of understanding doesn’t change any of the facts here.
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One source, yes, the actual NFL. Again, for the millionth time, go take it up with them, I don't care.
 
#56
#56
unfrozencvmanvol said:
True, but a nickleback wouldn't be as versatile as someone with Nakobe Dean's greater size and strength, who also happens to have a nickleback's speed. The more roles a player can fill, the higher his value. As you said above, I disagree with very little of the Professor's lecture, other than to the extent he is alleging that we are not trying to get elite players at inside linebacker, or that inside linebacker play doesn't matter. It was one of the main weaknesses of our defense last year. Everybody knows as far as NFL value, the highest value players are 1. quarterback (by a wide margin); 2. Players who protect the quarterback (tackles generally being the highest paid); and 3. pass rushers who can get after the QB. I simply reject the insinuation that recruiting those 3 types of players to the exclusion of others is a viable recruiting strategy. It's not, and further, it's not what Heupel and Co. are doing, they want elite players at every position. We're simply doing a better job at recruiting edge guys right now. I don't understand the drive some fans have to create fantastical narratives, like "linebackers don't matter", just because we aren't getting as many good ones at the moment. That will change in time. As soon as we start landing a few Nakobe Dean types, no one will be pushing the exceedingly stupid narrative that linebackers aren't important anymore.
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Literally no one has said that and no one is claiming we want non-elite players. Obviously you want the best at every position, but if you only have 25/85 spots you're going to prioritize the positions that have a greater impact. Does it matter less than other positions? Yes. That's why you can't name one drafted first.

LBs matter, just less so than most other defensive positions. Especially CB and edge rushers.
 
#58
#58
Vol8188 said:
Literally no one has said that and no one is claiming we want non-elite players. Obviously you want the best at every position, but if you only have 25/85 spots you're going to prioritize the positions that have a greater impact. Does it matter less than other positions? Yes. That's why you can't name one drafted first.

LBs matter, just less so than most other defensive positions. Especially CB and edge rushers.
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When has a cornerback EVER gone No. 1 overall??? Ever??? Jeezus man, you repeatedly fail your own litmus tests.
 
#59
#59
unfrozencvmanvol said:
When has a cornerback EVER gone No. 1 overall??? Ever??? Jeezus man, you repeatedly fail your own litmus tests.
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The initial question was LBs vs edge. Both edge rushers and corners are drafted higher than LBs and in higher numbers
 
#60
#60
Vol8188 said:
The initial question was LBs vs edge. Both edge rushers and corners are drafted higher than LBs and in higher numbers
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Where we got sideways was you essentially called me a liar for saying the same number of "LB" got drafted in the first round in 2022 as "EDGE" players, and asked for my source, which lo and behold was NFL.com's draft board. Since then, you have prattled away about your "knowledge" and "understanding of the game" or my lack thereof, which frankly I don't give two s**ts about your opinion as to either. Your real beef is that NFL.com doesn't share your view of the classification of players, and you need to take that up with them. I have said ITT that as far as dollars and cents value, in the NFL, it is axiomatic that the most valuable players are quarterbacks (by a wide margin) and then guys who protect quarterbacks (chiefly tackles) and guys who can get after the quarterback.

I have also said, multiple times, that my disagreement on LB vs. EDGE recruiting was to the extent some were poo pooing the importance of linebacker recruiting when in actuality, it's simply because we aren't closing on our highest targets at that position (yet). Our off the ball linebacker play was dreadful at times last year and was a major hole in our defense. Anyone who thinks a few Nakobe Dean type players wouldn't immediately make our team much, much better and aren't worth pursuing/prioritizing is kidding themselves big time, and I highly doubt the eschewing of elite players at the linebacker position is a strategy Heupel and Banks agree with or are employing, you can debate with yourself who fetches bigger dollars in the NFL until the end of time (as I state above I don't even disagree that prolific pass rushers are the highest paid defensive players in the NFL on average), but as far as a college/team building discussion, it's not an EITHER/OR at ILB or EDGE or CB or whatever, you need elite players all over the field, and elite depth to get where we want to go.
 
#61
#61
unfrozencvmanvol said:
Where we got sideways was you essentially called me a liar for saying the same number of "LB" got drafted in the first round in 2022 as "EDGE" players, and asked for my source, which lo and behold was NFL.com's draft board. Since then, you have prattled away about your "knowledge" and "understanding of the game" or my lack thereof, which frankly I don't give two s**ts about your opinion as to either. Your real beef is that NFL.com doesn't share your view of the classification of players, and you need to take that up with them. I have said ITT that as far as dollars and cents value, in the NFL, it is axiomatic that the most valuable players are quarterbacks (by a wide margin) and then guys who protect quarterbacks (chiefly tackles) and guys who can get after the quarterback.

I have also said, multiple times, that my disagreement on LB vs. EDGE recruiting was to the extent some were poo pooing the importance of linebacker recruiting when in actuality, it's simply because we aren't closing on our highest targets at that position (yet). Our off the ball linebacker play was dreadful at times last year and was a major hole in our defense. Anyone who thinks a few Nakobe Dean type players wouldn't immediately make our team much, much better and aren't worth pursuing/prioritizing is kidding themselves big time, and I highly doubt the eschewing of elite players at the linebacker position is a strategy Heupel and Banks agree with or are employing, you can debate with yourself who fetches bigger dollars in the NFL until the end of time (as I state above I don't even disagree that prolific pass rushers are the highest paid defensive players in the NFL on average), but as far as a college/team building discussion, it's not an EITHER/OR at ILB or EDGE or CB or whatever, you need elite players all over the field, and elite depth to get where we want to go.
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The thing we do agree on (that strangely not many do because they think Jeremy Banks played well) is how bad out LB play was
 
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#62
#62
Vol8188 said:
The thing we do agree on (that strangely not many do because they think Jeremy Banks played well) is how bad out LB play was
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We agree on more than that I think. I enjoy coming here and I sometimes argue against someone one day and with them the next, I don't hold grudges but one thing I don't do is make stuff up. I know what you are saying about how you are classifying "EDGE" players, I just think NFL.com is taking a narrower view than you are. I really don't have a dog in that fight, I don't think either is invalid, they're just different views. Anyway, maybe the BaseVols can pull this one out today and even this thing up.
 
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#63
#63
99gator said:
My guess is that as more offenses are spread and attack through the air, the less emphasis there is on linebackers to take on the run.

A lot of teams play a Nickel defense as a standard defense.

I think even among people who are recruited as linebackers, there is more importance on the ability to get to a QB when blitzing and cover RB's and TE's or even WR's, than being able to take down a 225lb RB.

I think things will eventually come full circle and there will be a team(s) that pound the rock that will be tough to beat because no one is built to stop a 220lb RB running behind a fullback lead blocker anymore.
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Yea, I remember how everyone in the SEC adjusted their D to stop the Fun and Gun at Florida and how our D was just mauled against Nebraska a few years later when they decided to line up and run right at us. Things are cyclic. Some of our best LBs in recent years have been built more like Strong Safeties. If you play 4 down linemen on D you can use smaller, faster LBs.
 
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#64
#64
unfrozencvmanvol said:
We agree on more than that I think. I enjoy coming here and I sometimes argue against someone one day and with them the next, I don't hold grudges but one thing I don't do is make stuff up. I know what you are saying about how you are classifying "EDGE" players, I just think NFL.com is taking a narrower view than you are. I really don't have a dog in that fight, I don't think either is invalid, they're just different views. Anyway, maybe the BaseVols can pull this one out today and even this thing up.
Click to expand...

Boy this has been a doozy of a VN “debate”
 
#66
#66
99gator said:
My guess is that as more offenses are spread and attack through the air, the less emphasis there is on linebackers to take on the run.

A lot of teams play a Nickel defense as a standard defense.

I think even among people who are recruited as linebackers, there is more importance on the ability to get to a QB when blitzing and cover RB's and TE's or even WR's, than being able to take down a 225lb RB.

I think things will eventually come full circle and there will be a team(s) that pound the rock that will be tough to beat because no one is built to stop a 220lb RB running behind a fullback lead blocker anymore.
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Michigan State & Wisconsin immediately come to mind. These are schools that built a running identity that really never changes. We know they want to lineup and pound the rock no matter who they play. Might not necessarily be elite seasons every year but they are typically a top 10-20 team.
 
#67
#67
901 Orange said:
Michigan State & Wisconsin immediately come to mind. These are schools that built a running identity that really never changes. We know they want to lineup and pound the rock no matter who they play. Might not necessarily be elite seasons every year but they are typically a top 10-20 team.
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UGA to an extent is also that way, it's one reason they struggle to attract elite receivers.
 
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