Pro-Style Offense please

#26
#26
DeansRedHalo said:
Has it occurred to YOU why the pros run "pro style" offenses?

HINT: It has more to do with the QB getting hit than its effectiveness. Same reason a left tackle is paid more than a right tackle.

Teams like Miami and Kansas City are realizing that the run-first spread (what we would call the Wild-insertnameofschoolorplayerhere formation) is incredibly effective...as long as you don't have your AIG bailout money, slow as molasses QB back there scampering about getting his teeth knocked into his esophagus.

The Pats have figured out that the passing spread works pretty well and it's starting to look more like the Air Raid system every time I look at the highlights. Brady/Cassel in the gun a majority of the time, lots of draws and a hefty screen game. Lightning fast reads and ball delivery. Small, shifty slot receiver who adjusts his route depending on the defense...who played college ball under...Mike Leach...from Texas...Tech.

In all truth, it could be argued that the West Coast Offense isn't really what would be considered a typical "pro style" offense if you take into account the fact that it was a late 80s/early 90s creation of Walsh that introduced new passing trees and concepts as well as an entirely different way of employing and looking at the forward pass. Before the WCO, it was a lot of posts, corners, and go routes, all I-formation, TE sets....

You know, back when you had to "establish the run"?
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Ask the Dolphins how effective their offense was Sunday. Then ask them how effective the Patriots' pro style offense was against them.

Then remind them they got beat by a guy that before this year hadn't started since HS.
 
#28
#28
volfanbill said:
Ask the Dolphins how effective their offense was Sunday. Then ask them how effective the Patriots' pro style offense was against them.

Then remind them they got beat by a guy that before this year hadn't started since HS.
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How bout another?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/24/sports/football/24dolphins.html

"The Patriots’ game plan went heavily to the spread, in large part to blunt the Dolphins’ pass rush. New England often played with five receivers, with Cassel in the shotgun."

kthx.
 
#29
#29
DeansRedHalo said:
How bout another?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/24/sports/football/24dolphins.html

"The Patriots’ game plan went heavily to the spread, in large part to blunt the Dolphins’ pass rush. New England often played with five receivers, with Cassel in the shotgun."

kthx.
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you're using the term "spread" very loosely. I thought you were wanting to talk about a spread option or something of that sorts since you brought up the dolphins Wildcat attack.

There are several, and I mean several differences in going to a 5 receiver set and what the Dolphins have been doing.
 
#30
#30
volfanbill said:
you're using the term "spread" very loosely. I thought you were wanting to talk about a spread option or something of that sorts since you brought up the dolphins Wildcat attack.

There are several, and I mean several differences in going to a 5 receiver set and what the Dolphins have been doing.
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Which is exactly what I said in my first post. The spread is more of an offensive philosophy rather than an ironclad system.

From Wiki, the very definition of the spread offense is:

"The spread offense is an offensive scheme in American football and Canadian football that is used at every level of the game including the NFL, CFL, NCAA, NAIA, CIS, and high schools across America and Canada. The spread offense begins with a no-huddle approach with the quarterback in the shotgun formation much of the time. The fundamental nature of the spread offense involves spreading the field horizontally using 3, 4, and even 5-receiver sets (some implementations of the spread also feature wide splits between the offensive linemen). The object of the spread offense is to open up multiple vertical seams for both the running and passing game to exploit, as the defense is forced to spread itself thin across the field (a "horizontal stretch") to cover everyone.

There are many forms of the spread system. One of the extremes is the pass-oriented version typified by Mike Leach's Texas Tech Red Raiders, Todd Dodge's North Texas Mean Green, Gary Pinkel's Missouri Tigers, Todd Graham's Tulsa Golden Hurricane, and Hal Mumme's New Mexico State Aggies. This version employs multiple spread sets and is heavily reliant on the quarterback and coaches being able to call the appropriate play at the line of scrimmage based on how the defense sets up. Mike Stoops' Arizona Wildcats (under offensive coordinator Sonny Dykes, who coached under Leach at Texas Tech) also uses a variation of the pass-oriented spread system which makes slightly more use of the tight end and the running backs.

The other extreme version is the Spread Option, used in 2007 by Rich Rodriguez at West Virginia and now Michigan, Chip Kelly at Oregon and Jerry Moore at Appalachian State. Despite the multi-receiver sets, the spread option is a run-first scheme which requires a quarterback that is comfortable carrying the ball, a mobile offensive line that can pull and trap effectively, and receivers that can hold their blocks. The essence of the spread option is misdirection. Effectively, this is the old triple option except that it utilizes spread sets. In particular, the quarterback must be able to read the defensive end and determine whether he is collapsing down the line or playing upfield contain.

A third, rare version of the spread offense is the Pistol Offense which is used by Chris Ault's Nevada Wolf Pack and some high schools across the nation. The Pistol Offense focuses on using the run with various offensive players, and calls for the quarterback to line up about three yards behind the center and take a short shotgun snap at the start of each play."

Therefore, to say the spread won't work in the NFL or won't work against this or that defense seems a bit contrived, eh?

No matter how you want to slice it, the spread is being used in all its forms right now (save for maybe the Pistol) in the NFL and teams are having success.

That same Miami team embarassed that New England team back in September using that running spread with Ronnie Brown at QB, if I remember...
 
#32
#32
DeansRedHalo said:
Has it occurred to YOU why the pros run "pro style" offenses?

HINT: It has more to do with the QB getting hit than its effectiveness. Same reason a left tackle is paid more than a right tackle.

Teams like Miami and Kansas City are realizing that the run-first spread (what we would call the Wild-insertnameofschoolorplayerhere formation) is incredibly effective...as long as you don't have your AIG bailout money, slow as molasses QB back there scampering about getting his teeth knocked into his esophagus.

The Pats have figured out that the passing spread works pretty well and it's starting to look more like the Air Raid system every time I look at the highlights. Brady/Cassel in the gun a majority of the time, lots of draws and a hefty screen game. Lightning fast reads and ball delivery. Small, shifty slot receiver who adjusts his route depending on the defense...who played college ball under...Mike Leach...from Texas...Tech.

In all truth, it could be argued that the West Coast Offense isn't really what would be considered a typical "pro style" offense if you take into account the fact that it was a late 80s/early 90s creation of Walsh that introduced new passing trees and concepts as well as an entirely different way of employing and looking at the forward pass. Before the WCO, it was a lot of posts, corners, and go routes, all I-formation, TE sets....

You know, back when you had to "establish the run"?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you gave a dissertation in response to what I said. I was just pointing out that it was silly to dismiss "pro style" offenses as plodding and antiquated.
 
#33
#33
GAVol said:
I'm not sure why you gave a dissertation in response to what I said. I was just pointing out that it was silly to dismiss "pro style" offenses as plodding and antiquated.
Click to expand...

Because the point is, there really is no "pro style" offense anymore...it's becoming more and more diluted every season.
 
#34
#34
viagravolzy said:
Just curious...how could you possibly know who the better coach is?? Kiffin was under the stranglehold of Davis who by all estimations is crazier than a s@%# house rat. Kiffin produced big time when he was in charge of the offense at SC, but has yet to be given a real chance to "coach" a team. You say your point with such conviction...do you own the biggest crystal ball ever, or are you that arrogant?
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I do have a big crystal ball. I won't hold his coaching stint with the Raiders against him as Al Davis is a moron. But let's look at the facts:

Kelly was at GVS and won 6 Divisional Titles and 2 National Championships. Took over CMU which had won only 4 games the year before he took over . He won the MAC championship 2 years later. Took over UC which was average at best. Went 10-2 his first year and now up for the Big East Title in his 2nd yr.

You can take your foot out of your mouth now.
 
#35
#35
DeansRedHalo said:
Because the point is, there really is no "pro style" offense anymore...it's becoming more and more diluted every season.
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And that's fine, to run some "spread" plays, where we spread the field.........However, the beauty of recruits coming to TN in the past, has been to get ready to play NFL level football, with NFL offensive-type of systems....

Therefore, we should still have a "pro-style" offense, with some more creativity, better play-calling, and some more "spread", if you will.......However, if we completely go to a "spread" offense, we will lose several more recruits, including Taj Boyd, as well........He said he doens't want to run the spread, that's why he decommitted from WVU.........

We need to get a coach quick, stop the bleeding.....
 
#36
#36
I agree; we shouldn't run a spread option like UF runs with Tebow, and I'm sure that's what you and Boyd mean when they say they don't want to run a spread.

The easiest way to dominate a team is still to run right over them (as OU showed against TT) but as the defenses have become stronger, bigger, and faster (especially here in the SEC), I think we will continue to struggle to stay ahead of the curve unless we start spreading the field.

Remember, Drew Brees was a short, "system" QB in a pass-happy spread attack many years ago under Joe Tiller at Purdue; and now he's throwing the ball 40 times a game and is on pace for 5,000+ yards in the NFL. Doesn't sound like much has changed; he's still short, and he's still putting up "system" numbers.

The NFL is a-changing and so is the SEC. I don't think we can continue to compete trying to grind over people. We have to make teams fear that we could hit a home run each and every play. Make them play honest D.

Cheers.
 
#37
#37
DeansRedHalo said:
I agree; we shouldn't run a spread option like UF runs with Tebow, and I'm sure that's what you and Boyd mean when they say they don't want to run a spread.

The easiest way to dominate a team is still to run right over them (as OU showed against TT) but as the defenses have become stronger, bigger, and faster (especially here in the SEC), I think we will continue to struggle to stay ahead of the curve unless we start spreading the field.

Remember, Drew Brees was a short, "system" QB in a pass-happy spread attack many years ago under Joe Tiller at Purdue; and now he's throwing the ball 40 times a game and is on pace for 5,000+ yards in the NFL. Doesn't sound like much has changed; he's still short, and he's still putting up "system" numbers.

The NFL is a-changing and so is the SEC. I don't think we can continue to compete trying to grind over people. We have to make teams fear that we could hit a home run each and every play. Make them play honest D.

Cheers.
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You have espoused two diametrically opposed viewpoints in one post.

If you want the defense to fear the home run every play and recognize that they'll have their hands full in spite of a massive talent disparity, then run the option a bunch. The small schools that do so are the ones that give their much more talented cousins a lot of trouble, and the ones that don't are the ones who get 60 invitations for a $750,000 payday in Week 1.
 
#39
#39
Ohio Vol said:
You have espoused two diametrically opposed viewpoints in one post.

If you want the defense to fear the home run every play and recognize that they'll have their hands full in spite of a massive talent disparity, then run the option a bunch. The small schools that do so are the ones that give their much more talented cousins a lot of trouble, and the ones that don't are the ones who get 60 invitations for a $750,000 payday in Week 1.
Click to expand...

How so, sir? I never said the option wasn't effective...in fact, read some of my other posts and you will realize that I was talking about the spread option being used in the NFL by the Dolphins and Chiefs in a favorable light. I think Nebraska proved that the option could be used to perfection...

But UT running the option? Only if you want us to look like Michigan this year. Personally, I don't like the spread option as well as its passing counterpart but with the right personnel it can be devastating. Michigan does not quite have the personnel to run it. Play to your strengths.

We recruit pocket passer QBs, but that doesn't mean we have to be a run on first and second down, pass on third down type of team.
 
#40
#40
tabrams said:
I may get hammered for my opnion here, but I think that for Tennessee to remain a big national player for top recruits, we have to stay with a pro-style offense, period.......a balanced attack with running and passing, and more creativity than we've seen lately, a lot more..........

I've been a big supporter of some spread coaches this year, but after seeing all this negativity with recruits, we cannot afford to hire a spread coach at this time, it's too radical of a change, I believe.......

Therefore, it's NFL coaches first, Butch Davis second, and Kiffin third.........

If we get none of the above, we're screwed.....
:mf_surrender:
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Your all about Kelly, you have been boasting for weeks now on him...Kelly runs a spread why the change of heart?
 
#41
#41
GmanTN said:
Your all about Kelly, you have been boasting for weeks now on him...Kelly runs a spread why the change of heart?
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Thanks for noticing.......I should have clarified myself better......Kelly is one of the, if not THE best coach on the board, in my opinion......

However, I've very worried about the current recruits dropping like flies........I guess I'm feeling the pressure from all the de-commits, so I don't know what to think anymore..........

If Kelly comes in, and we lose alot more recruits, like Oku, Boyd, etc......I dunno........what is best for us??
Can Kelly coach up a bunch of suckers, and make them winners?? Could take a year or 2............

How long can we afford to wait around I wonder.......and will the good ole TN rich boyz accept a Spread coach?? Makes you wonder........
 
#42
#42
tabrams said:
I may get hammered for my opnion here, but I think that for Tennessee to remain a big national player for top recruits, we have to stay with a pro-style offense, period.......a balanced attack with running and passing, and more creativity than we've seen lately, a lot more..........

I've been a big supporter of some spread coaches this year, but after seeing all this negativity with recruits, we cannot afford to hire a spread coach at this time, it's too radical of a change, I believe.......

Therefore, it's NFL coaches first, Butch Davis second, and Kiffin third.........

If we get none of the above, we're screwed.....
:mf_surrender:
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They are NFL coaches just saying.
 
#43
#43
Jewbaccah said:
They are NFL coaches just saying.
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Current NFL coaches, you goofus........then the "college" studs next.........Kiffin qualifies as more of a college guy with some NFL experience.........

when i think of NFL coaches, I'm taliing about 3 - do i have to name em??
Gruden
Cowher
L. Smith

don't try to put the other college guys in with these guys.....maybe should have wirting NFL legends........
 
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