OL Technique Question

#26
#26
sMi.Spite said:
Interesting. Why does Denver seem to have so much success in their system?
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Denver drafts quicker linemen who tend to be undersized, so their "best available" is normally there in the fifth round. Picking up Ryan Clady this year was a stroke of genius and a large part of their offensive success.

One thing Denver does a LOT of is cut block on the backside. What that does is force defensive linemen to both play a little further off the ball than they normally would, and it also forces them to intentionally be slow to fire off because of the fear and getting their leg caved in. This creates an enormous advantage for the Broncos because it gives their linemen not just the first step on the defense, but normally the second one as well.

I love cut blocking, I teach cut blocking, and I have no compunction about making either of those statements.
 
#27
#27
Ohio Vol said:
Denver drafts quicker linemen who tend to be undersized, so their "best available" is normally there in the fifth round. Picking up Ryan Clady this year was a stroke of genius and a large part of their offensive success.

One thing Denver does a LOT of is cut block on the backside. What that does is force defensive linemen to both play a little further off the ball than they normally would, and it also forces them to intentionally be slow to fire off because of the fear and getting their leg caved in. This creates an enormous advantage for the Broncos because it gives their linemen not just the first step on the defense, but normally the second one as well.

I love cut blocking, I teach cut blocking, and I have no compunction about making either of those statements.
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and to some of your previous points, when the lineman reaches the point of attack, they understand leverage and basic blocking so they can execute. Our guys are slow to reach the point of attack, so it is often gone and the times they do reach it, they lose the battle of leverage, so we end up with missed blocks or stalemates the vast majority of the day.
 
#28
#28
Ohio Vol said:
Zone blocking is garbage. There, I said it.

Bob Davie's explanation of zone blocking largely falls flat because for most of it, he's talking about what's called combo blocking. At its heart, this involves base or down blocking. But in most teams that run full-fledged zone blocking, it's a series of reaches.

Let me explain thusly. To oppose a regular five-man offensive line (no tight end), the two defensive ends will set up on the outside shoulder of the offensive tackles. In order for the play to successfully get outside, the tackle must come off quickly, take a flat step, and try to fight the DE to get his helmet across the DE's helmet. This is a reach block.

Here's the problem. The first commandment of DL play is this. DO NOT GET REACH BLOCKED. What's the second commandment? DO NOT GET REACH BLOCKED. And the third is this: DO NOT GET REACH BLOCKED.

We can begin on the chalkboard. There's a story about when Sammy Baugh was with the Redskins at the beginning of his career, and they were preparing for a game against the Eagles. The coach (whose name escapes me) drew up a basic play and said "This back will block the DT." Baugh raised his hand and said, "Coach, there's a problem. On Sunday that won't be an X on a chalkboard. That's going to be (HOF lineman) Bucko Kilroy." The coach scratched his head, then made a series of adjustments.

But in zone blocking, there is no real thought to the fact that defensive linemen and linebackers are simply faster than offensive linemen. If the scheme were truly that effective and revolutionary, there would be a huge gap in yards per carry that couldn't be explained by a simple talent disparity.

The reason why outside zone blocking fails is because, as more teams go to a read-and-react defense, all the DLs are fighting that reach all the way down the line. So when the ballcarrier goes to find a seam or a spot to cut back, he'll have all his own linemen, all the DLs, and at least one linebacker wedged into a very tight area.
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I figured you'd show up to help me today. Thanks so much.

If I understand correctly, then, and seeing who the system does seem to work for, are our linemen set up for failure? We have some beasts that are setting world-class strength marks and still can't block guys 40-50 pounds their slighter. Does the decision to go with zone-blocking come primarily from Adkins, and if so, how does Fulmer feel about it? Being an ex-OL himself, I'd have to think that he takes a serious interest in the coaching of the line.
 
#29
#29
BigPapaVol said:
and to some of your previous points, when the lineman reaches the point of attack, they understand leverage and basic blocking so they can execute. Our guys are slow to reach the point of attack, so it is often gone and the times they do reach it, they lose the battle of leverage, so we end up with missed blocks or stalemates the vast majority of the day.
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That's an additional problem.

If you ever slow-mo or even look at still pictures of the Broncos' line, they'll be three or four steps over from their starting point and still be in a half-squatting position. Most teams that zone block poorly get one step over and their guys are standing straight up.

The problem isn't even leverage on the outside, otherwise I wouldn't be complaining about the guards and center also being unable to move anyone. Setting your feet works in a zone pass blocking scheme, but doing it in the running game is inexcusable.
 
#30
#30
kiddiedoc said:
I figured you'd show up to help me today. Thanks so much.

If I understand correctly, then, and seeing who the system does seem to work for, are our linemen set up for failure? We have some beasts that are setting world-class strength marks and still can't block guys 40-50 pounds their slighter. Does the decision to go with zone-blocking come primarily from Adkins, and if so, how does Fulmer feel about it? Being an ex-OL himself, I'd have to think that he takes a serious interest in the coaching of the line.
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Zone blocking works for quick guys and those who understand leverage; they simply have a greater tendency to be under 300 pounds and possibly be a couple inches shorter than the normal lineman. But someone like Orlando Pace in his prime or an Eric Winston or Joe Staley today would have no problem getting out into space with ease.

As for who decides on how to block, it depends on the offensive structure. Some offensive coordinators don't care how the blocking is done as long as it happens, and some will dedicate a great deal of time imparting the scheme that best fits their offense. Whether it comes from Adkins or not still doesn't excuse the fact that his line has been pathetic from the day he started coaching it.

As for Fulmer's feelings, I'm not him so I couldn't speculate. It's easy for me to say "When I'm an offensive coordinator or a head coach down the road, I'll always focus on the line", but it might not bounce out that way. If there's one thing that will infuriate an assistant (and I speak from personal experience here), it's having the head coach micromanaging their position group.
 
#31
#31
Ohio Vol said:
The reason why outside zone blocking fails is because, as more teams go to a read-and-react defense, all the DLs are fighting that reach all the way down the line. So when the ballcarrier goes to find a seam or a spot to cut back, he'll have all his own linemen, all the DLs, and at least one linebacker wedged into a very tight area.
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Watching the replay last night, what you described above was readily apparent. We kept running that toss sweep and we had guys getting on the perimeter and either completely whiffing or getting stalemated which did nothing but create a huge traffic jam once the RB was unable to get the corner.
 
#32
#32
GAVol said:
Watching the replay last night, what you described above was readily apparent. We kept running that toss sweep and we had guys getting on the perimeter and either completely whiffing or getting stalemated which did nothing but create a huge traffic jam once the RB was unable to get the corner.
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we cannot seal the corner without fooling the D on misdirection.
 
#33
#33
BigPapaVol said:
we cannot seal the corner without fooling the D on misdirection.
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Knocking the DEs out a couple of times usually works. I believe GAVol can tell us about the effectiveness of a shovel pass that targets said position.:)
 
#34
#34
I read where Phil and company says we are playing weakside/strongside blocking. I don't think that would be considered zone blocking because of the different assignments that play into the OL rotation based on where the run is going. I probably need some clarification on that but I don't think that would be considered zone blocking.
 
#35
#35
g8terh8ter_eric said:
I read where Phil and company says we are playing weakside/strongside blocking. I don't think that would be considered zone blocking because of the different assignments that play into the OL rotation based on where the run is going. I probably need some clarification on that but I don't think that would be considered zone blocking.
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I think your right.
Clawson brought in a scheme where OL, will play multiple assignments during the game. So an OL, is no longer just a LT, RG, etc...

I remember reading an article in KNS, early in the spring on it..

So that's probably contributing to some of the line issues. Even though the OL is experienced coming back this year, there not playing their typical position.
 
#36
#36
vol_in_ar said:
I think your right.
Clawson brought in a scheme where OL, will play multiple assignments during the game. So an OL, is no longer just a LT, RG, etc...

I remember reading an article in KNS, early in the spring on it..

So that's probably contributing to some of the line issues. Even though the OL is experienced coming back this year, there not playing their typical position.
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Georgia players said they picked up on that and knew what was going to happen. Said they played hungry and was licking their chops because its fun to play football when you know what is coming.
 
#37
#37
g8terh8ter_eric said:
I read where Phil and company says we are playing weakside/strongside blocking. I don't think that would be considered zone blocking because of the different assignments that play into the OL rotation based on where the run is going. I probably need some clarification on that but I don't think that would be considered zone blocking.
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Zone blocking is a technique and a scheme; switching positions is an alignment.

g8terh8ter_eric said:
Georgia players said they picked up on that and knew what was going to happen. Said they played hungry and was licking their chops because its fun to play football when you know what is coming.
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Georgia's players said they picked up on pre-snap keys, which really could be a variety of things.

vol_in_ar said:
I think your right.
Clawson brought in a scheme where OL, will play multiple assignments during the game. So an OL, is no longer just a LT, RG, etc...

I remember reading an article in KNS, early in the spring on it..

So that's probably contributing to some of the line issues. Even though the OL is experienced coming back this year, there not playing their typical position.
Click to expand...

The biggest issue hasn't been missing assignments or being ill-suited for an assignment. It's been guys firing off the ball standing straight up, crossing their feet, grabbing onto the outside of defenders, and not moving their legs. Experience at a particular position isn't the problem; if it was, there would be a half-season or full-season learning curve if someone switches positions.
 
#39
#39
Ohio Vol said:
Knocking the DEs out a couple of times usually works. I believe GAVol can tell us about the effectiveness of a shovel pass that targets said position.:)
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Ah, the great equalizer. :)

I actually sat in the stadium on Saturday wishing we would break out the old Utah Pass. It could have been very effective as much as UGA was crashing the DE's and blitzing all over the place.
 
#40
#40
The run blocking is bad, but the scary thing to me is that Stephens had absolutely no time to throw when we called a pure 5 step drop with no play action to slow down the pass rush. That makes it tough on 3rd and long since it's a tough to sell a play action fake on 3rd and 10.
 
#41
#41
It is practically impossible for the quarterback to sell a play action pass when we have had no running game for an entire season. What defensive coordinator would worry himself with our running game potential. His play calls would be "pin your ears back and smack the quarterback in the mouth".
 
#42
#42
GAVol said:
Ah, the great equalizer. :)

I actually sat in the stadium on Saturday wishing we would break out the old Utah Pass. It could have been very effective as much as UGA was crashing the DE's and blitzing all over the place.
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The funny thing is that the play really doesn't even need the guard clocking the DE. I just drew it up that way because I hate defensive linemen.:)
 
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