OK Vol friends, with the addition of OU-TX likely, what do we have to do to get competitive again with all these powerhouses?

[LWSVOL]

You pay them. The AD has to assess his situation and timing and then pay what is necessary to get the right coach. Had the situation not been so shaky, UT might have done that this time. Instead, they took an approach that hopefully will stabilize the program if Heupel cannot beat the odds. And the other part is that Heupel's potential buyout will not be expensive compared to what they would have had to give a bigger name coach.

PS- Bama doesn't stop being a good example simply because it crushes your notion that you should hire and keep a coach for years regardless of results. Jones was given 2 years longer than he should have gotten which contributed to where we are now. He fully demonstrated that he was not competitive with other SEC coaches on gameday... yet got extensions rather than warnings. Bama's coaches between Bear and Saban had more success than UT's coaches since Fulmer... and they averaged 4 years. UF dumped Zook knowing that in spite of a win % UT would LOVE to have right now... he wasn't taking them in the right direction. LSU dumped Miles because he had become mediocre.

Top programs aren't "patient".

Name the coach who has not won at least 9 games in his first 3 years that went on to have success or win championships. Your list even over the last 40 years is going to be very, very short.

There are no guarantees and history says that you don't necessarily increase your odds by throwing money at a big name. Sumlin was about as solid as "sure" as you could hope for when TAM hired him. Mike Sherman had a successful pro career before flopping at TAM.

Even if you hire a good or better coach, recruiting dries up if they don't prove themselves and grab momentum within the first 3 or 4 years. Without players... It doesn't matter how good of a coach they are. Their mediocre or worse results will just continue to tell recruits to look somewhere else.

There is a lot that goes into turning it around and not all of it is the quality of the coach. Some of it is the situation they inherit. Heupel in that respect is hurt by Pruitt's mess but that is offset by the Covid allowance. But he like all new coaches knows his window is small. He has to produce results that make recruits believe and do not create negative buzz among fans and media.

If Josh gets fired prior to 12/15/23, he gets 20 million. if between 12/15/23 and 12/15/25 he gets 15 million. These numbers assume no extensions or raises.

Wonder what a bigger named coach's buyout might have been?? 40 million? very possible.

If Josh gets fired, the next not big name coaches buyout will be a lot more than Josh's.

 

[LWSVOL]

So which coach was fired who should have actually been retained? Dooley? Butch? Pruitt?

without an investigation, Pruitt would be the coach this season. not based on results but based on buyout. they would not have terminated without cause.

 

[VolInNW]

We're at the doorstep of being a bottom dweller in football in the SEC. The league is adding even more power teams. I want us to get back if it's possible. Heck we are not even mentioned as being one of the top teams in the league anymore. WHAT must we do???

 

[UT-Rex]

This BS some trolls are saying in this thread about us being a bottom-dweller, ignore that. It's just trolls. We're down, but not out. Top teams have bounced back from worse. We just need to re-learn what it takes to win.

Go Vols!

JP, you were saying ...

8-4 or 7-5 will be great seasons for UT going forward and probaly the ceiling cause we are never winning the SEC again we will never see the 90’s run of success again either. Tennessee would be best served if they asked or expressed interest to the ACC about joining. Tennessee will continue to be a bottom feeder in the SEC for years to come. Oklahoma and Texas coming to the SEC doesn’t help us not one bit.

 

[sjt18]

If Josh gets fired prior to 12/15/23, he gets 20 million. if between 12/15/23 and 12/15/25 he gets 15 million. These numbers assume no extensions or raises.

Wonder what a bigger named coach's buyout might have been?? 40 million? very possible.

Exactly. The market continues to shift in favor of coaches. The thing to watch is how good White is at assessing risks. Raises and extensions are not purely rewards. They're insurance policies against a guy leaving for better terms. If UT has done one thing consistently poorly over the last 20 years or so, it has been to give raises and extensions to guys whose "next best offer" would not have been better than what they were making. Fulmer very obviously did not have the market value to go out and get a job comparable to UT in pay or status. Same with Jones. Pruitt probably landed where he needed to be all along. Dooley has never even gotten back to where he was before UT.

AD's have to correctly assess the value of coaches and quit pretending that raises and extensions are "just the way you do it". They must be merit based.

If Josh gets fired, the next not big name coaches buyout will be a lot more than Josh's.

Always unless the market somehow turns against it. However if he is able to play a part in stabilizing the program a little bit then it might be time to pony up and go after Freeze or someone like him. I don't think Freeze could have been an option with UT facing the NCAA considering his recent past. That won't be the case in 3 or 4 years. And as you know, there is always a new "hot name" out there. Some of them like Meyer actually have the goods... but many do not.

 

[sjt18]

8-4 or 7-5 will be great seasons for UT going forward and probaly the ceiling cause we are never winning the SEC again we will never see the 90’s run of success again either. Tennessee would be best served if they asked or expressed interest to the ACC about joining. Tennessee will continue to be a bottom feeder in the SEC for years to come. Oklahoma and Texas coming to the SEC doesn’t help us not one bit.

Then why are you here? In complete and total honesty, if I had a loser attitude like you I wouldn't care about discussing the topic and would find better things to do with my Saturdays. Your consistent negativity and pessimism makes a person wonder if you aren't just that miserable in other areas of life too. For certain you "accept" failure much too easily.

 

[BeardedVol]

without an investigation, Pruitt would be the coach this season. not based on results but based on buyout. they would not have terminated without cause.

Only because of Fulmer's ego and incompetence, not because of Pruitt's coaching ability or performance over the three years he was HC.

 

[VolInNW]

Only because of Fulmer's ego and incompetence, not because of Pruitt's coaching ability or performance over the three years he was HC.

A more redundant phrase, there is not.

The man tanked us.......twice. I'm over him. Completely. Take away Cut, and he goes down in history as Spurrier's (expletive deleted)

 

[VFL-82-JP]

JP, you were saying ...

Yep. He is one of those trolls. Doesn't even really try to hide it. Just ignore every word he says, it adds no value to any of our lives.

Then why are you here?

He's just here to troll, SJT. Along with (at least) a couple of dozen others like him. If @Freak really wanted to make this community healthier, he'd delete every troll account as it becomes obvious.

If they wanna come talk smack on these boards wearing their true colors, what the heck. I wouldn't appreciate them, but at least it would be honest. But trolling like this, it just divides the community and gives us, and visitors, a false impression of the Volunteer fan base.

 

[OffTackleVol]

Then why are you here? In complete and total honesty, if I had a loser attitude like you I wouldn't care about discussing the topic and would find better things to do with my Saturdays. Your consistent negativity and pessimism makes a person wonder if you aren't just that miserable in other areas of life too. For certain you "accept" failure much too easily.

When I was growing up, the name us neighborhood kids gave people like '79 rhymed with wussy.

 

[OffTackleVol]

Yep. He is one of those trolls. Doesn't even really try to hide it. Just ignore every word he says, it adds no value to any of our lives.



He's just here to troll, SJT. Along with (at least) a couple of dozen others like him. If @Freak really wanted to make this community healthier, he'd delete every troll account as it becomes obvious.

If they wanna come talk smack on these boards wearing their true colors, what the heck. I wouldn't appreciate them, but at least it would be honest. But trolling like this, it just divides the community and gives us, and visitors, a false impression of the Volunteer fan base.

Yea, if he (79) really wore an orange shirt, I'd be terribly disappointed.

 

[sjt18]

When I was growing up, the name us neighborhood kids gave people like '79 rhymed with wussy.

Pretty common in my neighborhood too.

We just never learned to accept losing like that. I played in 37 football games in HS. We won 32 including a State Title in a class higher than our student total warranted. After decades, I still remember the losses. As a senior, we lost 2 games by a total of 4 points. If I think about it too much... I still get kind of hacked off we didn't win.

 

[sjt18]

To answer the original question and maybe get us back to a worthy topic... UT needs something "good" to serve as a turning point. When Saban went to Bama, they were floundering. In what seems like an era 100 years ago, his shortest path to changing course was to field a dominant D coupled to a dominant run game with a game manager at QB. Max credit to Saban for recognizing the evolution of the game and changing with it.

Today, it seems that turning point has to be offense. Heupel's strategy seems to specifically target and hinge on the QB position. IMHO, he didn't want 5 talented QB's in the room because he thought 3 or 4 were bums... he wanted to give himself the best odds of finding the guy who would be the focal point for creating positive momentum. The simplest truth in all of this is that the program needs great players and great players want to play for coaches that prove they can coach and win.

With great QB play, UT will win games that many don't currently think they'll win. If that happens then Heupel's chances of building UT back into a top tier program go up significantly.

IOW's, he's a smart guy and his fixation on the QB position is not incidental.

 

[IDVague]

Think it through, and you'll realize this changes very little for the Vols. Our annual slate of SEC games will look very much as it has always looked: Bama, Florida, and Georgia remain our biggest hurdles, year in and year out. Sure, we'll now play OK and TEX once every 4 years or so, but we've played OK twice in the past 8 years already, and they've not even been in the conference. Truly, the only significant change in schedule difficulty is that Auburn will be on the slate every year.

So really, no big changes. What we must do is (a) have a really good coach, and (b) give him time to solidify a really good stable of assistant coaches and roster of players.

This BS some trolls are saying in this thread about us being a bottom-dweller, ignore that. It's just trolls. We're down, but not out. Top teams have bounced back from worse. We just need to re-learn what it takes to win.

Go Vols!

This is the most reasonable reaction I have see here. Whether the SEC stays with 2 divisions and Alabama and Auburn move East, or a 4-pod system (doubtful), the programs most hurt by this change will be the Mississippi schools, Arkansas, & Missouri.

 

[VolInNW]

Pretty common in my neighborhood too.

We just never learned to accept losing like that. I played in 37 football games in HS. We won 32 including a State Title in a class higher than our student total warranted. After decades, I still remember the losses. As a senior, we lost 2 games by a total of 4 points. If I think about it too much... I still get kind of hacked off we didn't win.

 

[sjt18]

Think it through, and you'll realize this changes very little for the Vols. Our annual slate of SEC games will look very much as it has always looked: Bama, Florida, and Georgia remain our biggest hurdles, year in and year out. Sure, we'll now play OK and TEX once every 4 years or so, but we've played OK twice in the past 8 years already, and they've not even been in the conference. Truly, the only significant change in schedule difficulty is that Auburn will be on the slate every year.

So really, no big changes. What we must do is (a) have a really good coach, and (b) give him time to solidify a really good stable of assistant coaches and roster of players.

This BS some trolls are saying in this thread about us being a bottom-dweller, ignore that. It's just trolls. We're down, but not out. Top teams have bounced back from worse. We just need to re-learn what it takes to win.

Go Vols!

My only disagreement is the bold. Time is not a luxury you can offer a coach. They have to build momentum right away. They have to prove they can coach and win or recruiting dries up. The label (correctly) slapped on Jones was that he underperformed talent, was not a very good developer of players, and could not win the big games. He had a great start in getting talent partly because of a uniquely favorable situation with some top talent. He squandered it and by the time Pruitt took over... the roster was in rough shape.

The AD is critical. They have to see the direction the program is headed. CJH could win 8 games this year, 6 next year, and 7 the next then be set up for a break out in the next season... or it could be an indication that he had plateaued and was on the cusp of going the route of Jones. The AD's call at that point determines the direction of the program. Had the AD had the wisdom and courage to move on after Jones' 3rd year... UT might be in pretty good shape now.

 

[LWSVOL]

Exactly. The market continues to shift in favor of coaches. The thing to watch is how good White is at assessing risks. Raises and extensions are not purely rewards. They're insurance policies against a guy leaving for better terms. If UT has done one thing consistently poorly over the last 20 years or so, it has been to give raises and extensions to guys whose "next best offer" would not have been better than what they were making. Fulmer very obviously did not have the market value to go out and get a job comparable to UT in pay or status. Same with Jones. Pruitt probably landed where he needed to be all along. Dooley has never even gotten back to where he was before UT.

AD's have to correctly assess the value of coaches and quit pretending that raises and extensions are "just the way you do it". They must be merit based.


Always unless the market somehow turns against it. However if he is able to play a part in stabilizing the program a little bit then it might be time to pony up and go after Freeze or someone like him. I don't think Freeze could have been an option with UT facing the NCAA considering his recent past. That won't be the case in 3 or 4 years. And as you know, there is always a new "hot name" out there. Some of them like Meyer actually have the goods... but many do not.

Freeze is opposed by many in the administration and influential people outside the administration, Board and Boosters. Zero chance he is ever considered for Tennessee until a lot of people do not have a say.

 

[LWSVOL]

Only because of Fulmer's ego and incompetence, not because of Pruitt's coaching ability or performance over the three years he was HC.

Would not have been a Fulmer decision. Plowman / Boyd were not going to pay 12 million no matter how incompetent he was. Just were not..

Many people are sure fooled by the power they think an AD has. Fulmer would have hired Steele instead of Pruitt if his choice. Others wanted Pruitt.

 

[BeardedVol]

Would not have been a Fulmer decision. Plowman / Boyd were not going to pay 12 million no matter how incompetent he was. Just were not..

Many people are sure fooled by the power they think an AD has. Fulmer would have hired Steele instead of Pruitt if his choice. Others wanted Pruitt.

It was Fulmer's decision until the investigation, and his resignation. Fulmer doubled-down on his hiring of Pruitt, by extending him prior to the 2020 season.

Had he not done so, terminating him without cause would have been viable after the 2020 season. What Fulmer would or would have done, had he fired Pruitt is irrelevant due to his commitment to keeping Pruitt regardless of his performance, to satisfy his own ego.

 

[LWSVOL]

It was Fulmer's decision until the investigation, and his resignation. Fulmer doubled-down on his hiring of Pruitt, by extending him prior to the 2020 season.

Had he not done so, terminating him without cause would have been viable after the 2020 season. What Fulmer would or would have done, had he fired Pruitt is irrelevant due to his commitment to keeping Pruitt regardless of his performance, to satisfy his own ego.

SMH.... others could have stopped extension.. Plowman, (she signed it) Boyd, Anderson, Haslam, etc. Lot of people were ok with that and with Fulmer extension. neither should have been extended.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

You have to invest in Tennessee. Not just the school, the community. The state. The area. You have to lock it down. You have to build it up. That means starting at the bottom. Lower levels... pee wee, highs school, camps, school resources at the local levels. You have to start them young, and help their families out. That's what alabama did. They threw money into the local highschools and camps to CREATE an Alabama community. The coach even bought a mercedes dealership.... why? because the mercedes plant employees half the area. You have to care about your local kids and football culture in the state of Tennessee. Luckily, Tennessee already has a jump on this with Nashville, Memphis, and a couple of other areas. talent pools sitting there waiting for someone to give them what they need to explode.

 

[VolInNW]

Freeze is opposed by many in the administration and influential people outside the administration, Board and Boosters. Zero chance he is ever considered for Tennessee until a lot of people do not have a say.

Good. Last thing we need is a motivational coach who can recruit well and get the most from his talent. I mean....he hired a HOOKER!!! Gasp!!!

::: clutches pearls :::

(Not aimed at you, @LWSVOL , just the bluebloods who seem determined to tank us)

#sotennessee

 

[BeardedVol]

SMH.... others could have stopped extension.. Plowman, (she signed it) Boyd, Anderson, Haslam, etc. Lot of people were ok with that and with Fulmer extension. neither should have been extended.

Fulmer was hired as the AD. He was given the powers and responsibilities that every AD before him was also entrusted with in the past. So why do you believe that the it's suddenly on the shoulders of Boyd or Plowman, to overrule the AD on a decision to extend a coach's contract?

 

[hog88]

Freeze is opposed by many in the administration and influential people outside the administration, Board and Boosters. Zero chance he is ever considered for Tennessee until a lot of people do not have a say.

And this fake altruism is the core of our problems.

 

[LWSVOL]

Fulmer was hired as the AD. He was given the powers and responsibilities that every AD before him was also entrusted with in the past. So why do you believe that the it's suddenly on the shoulders of Boyd or Plowman, to overrule the AD on a decision to extend a coach's contract?

its not sudden.

Hamilton did NOT have the power to fire Fulmer. He had to ask if he could. Haslam approved and told him to not screw it up. He did and it cost him the job.

Hamilton didn't hire Dooley, Haslam did.

Currie tried to hire Schiano because Haslam Jr wanted him and was in Columbus with Currie.

Anderson made call on Pruitt.

Its been done this way since Johnson and Dickey left. Nothing sudden at all about it.

I'm not saying that I like or care about how its done or if that is the best way to do things. Just that its done that way. Elam was the guy in charge with Johnson and Dickey and he allowed them to run things. Things were much better then as well