Oil and gas prices: rockets and feathers

#2
#2
lawgator1 said:
Per barrel price of oil down to $119 as I write this. Yet gas prices coming down much slower than they went up when oil was on the rise. Why is this?

Economics and marketing: Is it true that gas prices go up faster than they come down? - By Martha C. White - Slate Magazine

This is precisely the kind of thing that will cause folks to support a windfall profits tax.
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Is this due in any part to oil companies? I'm not sure, maybe someone with more knowledge can give insight. However those that support WPT will have no one to blame but themselves when gas goes even higher or settles at a $4.00 per gallon for good. It's hard to support extra taxes on an industry that pays 2/3 of profit to taxes already!
 
#3
#3
side point: I fail to understand why theres no cries for more and larger refineries. Isn't that where the true bottleneck to supply is anyway? Aren't most refineries located in or near the gulf coast? Hurricane magnets will sideline as easy buttons to stagger our nations energy supply.
 
#4
#4
KB5252 said:
Is this due in any part to oil companies? I'm not sure, maybe someone with more knowledge can give insight. However those that support WPT will have no one to blame but themselves when gas goes even higher or settles at a $4.00 per gallon for good. It's hard to support extra taxes on an industry that pays 2/3 of profit to taxes already!
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I am not sure of the ownership interest relationship between the oil companies collecting the per barrel price versus the retailers. The retailers bear the names of Big Oil, i..e I gas up at an Exxon or a Mobil station. But, the way this phenomenon is expressed, it seems that the produce of the oil is not enjoying the profits represented by the lingering high price of gas as oil drops.

I don't disgaree that a WPT would mean that to some degree gas prices wil be higher than they otherwise would be without it. But that's not the point. Consumers are so angry right now they are going for the line about $12 billion in quarterly profits, making $1500 a second, etc.

All signs point to the economy (in the jobs, housing, credit, and fuel prices sense) as still being in bad shape towards the end of this year. Advantage Obama.
 
#5
#5
lawgator1 said:
Per barrel price of oil down to $119 as I write this. Yet gas prices coming down much slower than they went up when oil was on the rise. Why is this?

Economics and marketing: Is it true that gas prices go up faster than they come down? - By Martha C. White - Slate Magazine

This is precisely the kind of thing that will cause folks to support a windfall profits tax.
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No it isn't. To support that, you already exist under the ideaology that your problems are the fault of someone else. There are no additional reports, data, or information needed.
 
#6
#6
dan4vols said:
side point: I fail to understand why theres no cries for more and larger refineries. Isn't that where the true bottleneck to supply is anyway? Aren't most refineries located in or near the gulf coast? Hurricane magnets will sideline as easy buttons to stagger our nations energy supply.
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They aren't the bottleneck...and companies don't want to build new ones because they don't make that much money off of the process, unless prices of gasoline, diesel, light gases, plastics, and other petrochemicals go even higher.
 
#8
#8
lawgator1 said:
I am not sure of the ownership interest relationship between the oil companies collecting the per barrel price versus the retailers. The retailers bear the names of Big Oil, i..e I gas up at an Exxon or a Mobil station. But, the way this phenomenon is expressed, it seems that the produce of the oil is not enjoying the profits represented by the lingering high price of gas as oil drops.

I don't disgaree that a WPT would mean that to some degree gas prices wil be higher than they otherwise would be without it. But that's not the point. Consumers are so angry right now they are going for the line about $12 billion in quarterly profits, making $1500 a second, etc.

All signs point to the economy (in the jobs, housing, credit, and fuel prices sense) as still being in bad shape towards the end of this year. Advantage Obama.
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I'm not so sure the advantage goes to Obama.
 
#9
#9
volinbham said:
Are you one of those folks? Why not just say it will cause you to support it - no need to be passive/aggressive :)
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I honestly don't know. At times I really think I do, but if I'm honest its not because I think it makes any particular economic sense, its because I'm just mad.

It feels like we are being taken advantage of, that there is an intentional mainipulation of the markets going on and that the people with the power to break it up are the current leadership (Bush and Cheney) and Big Oil and that neither is terribly interested in doing too much to bring down their incredible profits.

The recent relief we are seeing just seems awfully convenient. Consumers get accustomed to prices around $4 a gallon and 90 days out from the election it starts a downturn to $3.50 area. Never mind that its still a huge increase over what it was a year ago.

I'm skeptical.
 
#10
#10
This idea by Obama that the energy rebate checks are going to be funded by the WPT is absolutely stunning. I am somewhat in disbelief that this guy can exist as a major candidate. Very troubling.
 
#11
#11
once again the refineries are losing money like crazy as are the gas stations. the oil price is up what 30% this year and the gas price is up what 10%? i hardly see how the consumers are getting screwed here.
 
#12
#12
droski said:
once again the refineries are losing money like crazy as are the gas stations. the oil price is up what 30% this year and the gas price is up what 10%? i hardly see how the consumers are getting screwed here.
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Yep - that's the irony. For the amount of increase we saw in oil, gas should have been way more expensive.
 
#13
#13
lawgator1 said:
I honestly don't know. At times I really think I do, but if I'm honest its not because I think it makes any particular economic sense, its because I'm just mad.

It feels like we are being taken advantage of, that there is an intentional mainipulation of the markets going on and that the people with the power to break it up are the current leadership (Bush and Cheney) and Big Oil and that neither is terribly interested in doing too much to bring down their incredible profits.

The recent relief we are seeing just seems awfully convenient. Consumers get accustomed to prices around $4 a gallon and 90 days out from the election it starts a downturn to $3.50 area. Never mind that its still a huge increase over what it was a year ago.

I'm skeptical.
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Where is the blame for congress failing to act on this? And you speak of their "incredible profits" even though they pay around 2/3 in taxes? I just don't understand the anger at oil companies given that percentage of taxes paid. Now if you could show me how oil is to blame for prices then I might start to get mad at them with you!
 
#14
#14
What windfall profits are we going to tax? tesoro's loss of 52 cents a share? exxon is down 20% this year basically 100% because they are losing money like crazy on their refineries and gas stations.
 
#15
#15
KB5252 said:
Where is the blame for congress failing to act on this? And you speak of their "incredible profits" even though they pay around 2/3 in taxes? I just don't understand the anger at oil companies given that percentage of taxes paid. Now if you could show me how oil is to blame for prices then I might start to get mad at them with you!
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He can't. That is what is so ridiculous about all this. Government takes in more money than anyone and uses it less efficiently than anyone, yet they are calling private business out on the carpet trying to "nail" them for their screwing the consumer. LOL. Absurd.
 
#16
#16
allvol123 said:
No it isn't. To support that, you already exist under the ideaology that your problems are the fault of someone else. There are no additional reports, data, or information needed.
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Isn't that the entire liberal way of thinking?
 
#17
#17
droski said:
once again the refineries are losing money like crazy as are the gas stations. the oil price is up what 30% this year and the gas price is up what 10%? i hardly see how the consumers are getting screwed here.
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droski said:
What windfall profits are we going to tax? tesoro's loss of 52 cents a share? exxon is down 20% this year basically 100% because they are losing money like crazy on their refineries and gas stations.
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Well now wait a minute. First, the price of gas is up much more than 10 percent over the last year. Second, you know that the price of gas and the price of oil are not linear. A significant part of the price of gas is unrelated to the price of oil, so it makes sense for there to be a lag. Third, the per share price of an oil or gas company is not the measure of the price of the product. The fact that Texaco shares are down doesn't mean that the price of oil or gas is. Come on.
 
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#18
#18
allvol123 said:
He can't. That is what is so ridiculous about all this. Government takes in more money than anyone and uses it less efficiently than anyone, yet they are calling private business out on the carpet trying to "nail" them for their screwing the consumer. LOL. Absurd.
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What's wrong with saying both? Why can't it be the case that we are being victimized by the inefficiency and ego of Congress while at the same time we are being victimized by the greed of oil companies?
 
#19
#19
lawgator1 said:
What's wrong with saying both? Why can't it be the case that we are being victimized by the inefficiency and ego of Congress while at the same time we are being victimized by the greed of oil companies?
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I can't feel near as victimized by someone that I choose to give my money to over someone I am forced to give it to. It is not even a close call. Obama and his ilk worrying about how much money Big Oil makes is a complete misdirection play.
 
#20
#20
lawgator1 said:
Well now wait a minute. First, the price of gas is up much more than 10 percent over the last year. Second, you know that the price of gas and the price of oil are not linear. A significant part of the price of gas is unrelated to the price of oil, so it makes sense for their to be a lag. Third, the per share price of an oil or gas company is not the measure of the price of the product. The fact that Texaco shares are down doesn't mean that the price of oil or gas is. Come on.
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I'm currently paying $3.90 a gallon. I was paying $3.60 at the end of last year.

You are complaining about the price of gas. The price of gas hasn't gone up nearly as much as oil. That is why tesoro is losing moeny. and the fact that exxon price is down and their profits are lower this year even though the oil price is up 30% tells you all you need to know about the supposed ridiculous amounts of money the oil companies are making.

The money being made is by the drillers, not the refiners or gas stations (who once again are LOSING money). Tax the drillers and what do you think happens? you think they will have an incentive to drill more? do you think that tax wont filter down to the consumer? all a windfall tax would do is make sure the price of gas never drops.
 
#21
#21
lawgator1 said:
Well now wait a minute. First, the price of gas is up much more than 10 percent over the last year. Second, you know that the price of gas and the price of oil are not linear. A significant part of the price of gas is unrelated to the price of oil, so it makes sense for there to be a lag. Third, the per share price of an oil or gas company is not the measure of the price of the product. The fact that Texaco shares are down doesn't mean that the price of oil or gas is. Come on.
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When oil went up the last kick from around $120 to $140, gas prices did not follow at the rate they normally follow. Therefore, it's not surprising that with oil down some 15% or so we aren't seeing similar drops in gas prices. People in the distribution channel were eating some of that last oil run-up.
 
#22
#22
TennTradition said:
They aren't the bottleneck...and companies don't want to build new ones because they don't make that much money off of the process, unless prices of gasoline, diesel, light gases, plastics, and other petrochemicals go even higher.
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Well, as of 1/1/08 US refineries were operating at 98% of capacity and our imports of gasoline have gone up 3.4 times in the past 10 years.

The main reason for only one new refinery in the last 25 years in the lower 48 is local organizations with the attitude of "not in our backyard."
 
#23
#23
KentheOrange said:
Well, as of 1/1/08 US refineries were operating at 98% of capacity and our imports of gasoline have gone up 3.4 times in the past 10 years.

The main reason for only one new refinery in the last 25 years in the lower 48 is local organizations with the attitude of "not in our backyard."
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The NIMBY sentiment does make it difficult to build a refinery..but I'm not sure the companies want to invest in refineries right now...their raw product is worth too much.
 
#24
#24
KentheOrange said:
Well, as of 1/1/08 US refineries were operating at 98% of capacity and our imports of gasoline have gone up 3.4 times in the past 10 years.

The main reason for only one new refinery in the last 25 years in the lower 48 is local organizations with the attitude of "not in our backyard."
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Thank you, thats what I was gettin at. So few refineries you can drill till the cows come home but its gotta be refined. I dont understand the process to well of how $ is made at each step, but it seems to me more refineries would increase available gas supply.
 
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