New ESPN rankings for 2021

GameTime

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Good posts guys....Each of you guys had some golden words, thoughts, and ideas.

Although Holly signed several top 10 classes, she did not utilize their offensive talents....She mistakenly believed defense could win it all, like back in the old days....The 3 ball changed the landscape, and an actual offensive scheme, like UConn runs, sealed the deal

UConn has been the most dominant basketball program for the last 10 plus years....Other programs have risen to prominence, only to be pretenders to UConn's crown...(Hard to type that, but there it is)

Is Kellie the right choice? I sure hope so...As a fan I'm looking for vast improvement in Kellie's coaching abilities.....

From the film I have seen on Striplin and Puckett, their offensive potential is unlimited...A prudent coach should be able to mold these two ladies into stars....

We shall all see together.....
 

Darth_Vol

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I don't buy into the two year time frame for two reasons.
First,it takes 3 to 4 years of relationship building to get the to recruits. KJH recruiting impact in the top players is in year 2 of that 3 to 4 year span. She is recruiting the top high school 8th graders and freshmen. (most top players commit before there senior season of high school.) So I would double your time frame or eve add another year.
Second, in year one coaching she is trying to turn around a culture and build a winning attitude. She is also coaching out the bad habits of the prior coach which is much more difficult than coaching good habits into a freshman.
Courtney Banghart would like you to hold her beer...
 

Orange Maniac

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And so would that new fellow who moved from Mississippi State down to Texas...
So you think Vic wasn't building relationships or recruiting the top players at MState? Swing and a miss by you. All he did was change locations. The relationships are still intact. If you're going to be critical of the current Lady Vol staff at least come with something that makes sense. SMDH.
 

1reVOLver

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So you think Vic wasn't building relationships or recruiting the top players at MState? Swing and a miss by you. All he did was change locations. The relationships are still intact. If you're going to be critical of the current Lady Vol staff at least come with something that makes sense. SMDH.
I am sure that, as you point out, Vic was building relationships in the course of recruiting for M. State. That is part of a coach's job. Same for Ms. Banghart, though her recruiting at Princeton was limited by academc requirements. That makes her early achievements at UNC even more impressive—she has succeeded
with a different candidate pool.

Now, let's take your accurate premise—coaches bring recruiting relationships wih them to a new position—and apply it closer to home. I assume KJH was a competent recruiter before she returned to Tennessee, so she too should have
some worthwhile irons in the fire.
 

Orange Maniac

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I am sure that, as you point out, Vic was building relationships in the course of recruiting for M. State. That is part of a coach's job. Same for Ms. Banghart, though her recruiting at Princeton was limited by academc requirements. That makes her early achievements at UNC even more impressive—she has succeeded
with a different candidate pool.

Now, let's take your accurate premise—coaches bring recruiting relationships wih them to a new position—and apply it closer to home. I assume KJH was a competent recruiter before she returned to Tennessee, so she too should have
some worthwhile irons in the fire.
Do you actually think you go after the same recruits at Mo State as you do at an SEC or a Power 5 school. Why would she have been wasting her time on the upper echelon recruits when she was coach at Mo State. They were never going to choose Mo State. If you want to make an argument, you will have to do better than that. Banghart is a different story than Vic. What she is doing is very impressive. It will be interesting to see if she can coach the talent she has now or will she flounder around. I have no idea idea if Kellie will succeed or fail. I just disagree with your reasoning on her recruiting.
 
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Darth_Vol

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There are always exceptions and I expect Kara Lawson also will not follow the norm. But they will return to the norm. Trust the grind, not the sparks.
What a ridiculous premise. What makes you think Banghart won't continue to recruit at an elite level? What makes you think Harper, with five years of experience at power five high-level programs, will suddenly start?
 

NeedOrange

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What a ridiculous premise. What makes you think Banghart won't continue to recruit at an elite level? What makes you think Harper, with five years of experience at power five high-level programs, will suddenly start?
Do you just like to argue? I made statements about the common recruiting cycle. I said there are always exceptions and gave an example of another coach who I expect to exceed the norm, and then I voiced that statistical fact exceptions to the norm typically return to the norm. You are using a strawman argument by accusing me of saying things I never said. Kindly read my posts carefully and reply within the context of my post or block me. I have no time to waste with someone who just wants to start an argument.
 

lfvol

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Agree KJH is certainly moving the needle in the right direction. 99.99% of the time top players want to play with similar or better level players. It is tough to get a top 10 player enthused about playing with a team of 40's and high 30's. But a high 20 can come if they buy into the coach. Once you get high 20's then its low twenties and beyond.

I don't buy into the two year time frame for two reasons.
First,it takes 3 to 4 years of relationship building to get the to recruits. KJH recruiting impact in the top players is in year 2 of that 3 to 4 year span. She is recruiting the top high school 8th graders and freshmen. (most top players commit before there senior season of high school.) So I would double your time frame or eve add another year.
Second, in year one coaching she is trying to turn around a culture and build a winning attitude. She is also coaching out the bad habits of the prior coach which is much more difficult than coaching good habits into a freshman.

Also in my opinion it was important to hire a legacy coach to maintain the Lady Vol aura. A coach from outside the system would have signaled a change that could have relegated the Lady Vols to just another program. Just my thoughts.

On the second part of your post, I completely disagree with it has to take 3-4 years of relationships. Not for great recruiters it doesn’t. And if she doesn’t have someone on her staff that was already fishing those waters, she doesn’t have the right people.

Second, it would have been much more important to recruit year one. You certainly can’t relegate that to year two while you set culture. Now, it is more convenient for your home life, etc if you don’t throw yourself into recruiting. But if the coach felt that way, you made the wrong hire.
 
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volnationnj

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Re: The Darth - Need Orange discussion.
My take as an outsider in this mini feud. Need Orange, you didn't say they would PROBABLY return to the norm, as far as recruiting goes. You said
"But they will return to the norm".
A definitive statement.
Personally, given the university she's coaching for, and her previous success as a head coach, I expect Banghart to continue to gather recruits befitting a top ten team.
 

Darth_Vol

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Do you just like to argue? I made statements about the common recruiting cycle. I said there are always exceptions and gave an example of another coach who I expect to exceed the norm, and then I voiced that statistical fact exceptions to the norm typically return to the norm. You are using a strawman argument by accusing me of saying things I never said. Kindly read my posts carefully and reply within the context of my post or block me. I have no time to waste with someone who just wants to start an argument.
Don't get butt-hurt just because I destroyed your rebuilding timeframe.

You directly said Banghart's recruiting would "return to the norm" suggesting this stellar class she just signed is some kind of mirage that she won't be able to continue recruiting at a high level. Doubtful.

You said it would take Harper at least three-four years to start recruiting at a high level. Again, doubtful. Especially looking at her previous experience at a power five school. She even had the sister of an elite prospect on her roster and couldn't close.

Bottom line is it's obviously much preferable for a coach to successfully recruit elite talent sooner than later. If it really takes Harper "3-4" years to pick up recruiting, this program is in serious trouble....
 
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Darth_Vol

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On the second part of your post, I completely disagree with it has to take 3-4 years of relationships. Not for great recruiters it doesn’t. And if she doesn’t have someone on her staff that was already fishing those waters, she doesn’t have the right people.

Second, it would have been much more important to recruit year one. You certainly can’t relegate that to year two while you set culture. Now, it is more convenient for your home life, etc if you don’t throw yourself into recruiting. But if the coach felt that way, you made the wrong hire.
This is a huge part of the problem. I think Kellie is clearly a weak recruiter. This would be ok if she had strong recruiters on her staff, but she doesn't...
 

NeedOrange

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On the second part of your post, I completely disagree with it has to take 3-4 years of relationships. Not for great recruiters it doesn’t. And if she doesn’t have someone on her staff that was already fishing those waters, she doesn’t have the right people.

Second, it would have been much more important to recruit year one. You certainly can’t relegate that to year two while you set culture. Now, it is more convenient for your home life, etc if you don’t throw yourself into recruiting. But if the coach felt that way, you made the wrong hire.
Can you name a school that doesn't reach out to 8th and 9th grader players? It's the great recruiters who can spot the 8th and 9th graders to focus on. Every wbb board rips Walz for giving offers to so many young players, but he recruits. You're right about the need to get on the recruiting cycle during the first year but it's important to recognize that correcting the environment to facilitate recruiting was a part of KJH's job too. When KJH got here she had a team so weak in fundamentals they couldn't make a good pass. Players want to play with teams that share the ball efficiently and her first year team did not demonstrate that ability.
 
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NeedOrange

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On the second part of your post, I completely disagree with it has to take 3-4 years of relationships. Not for great recruiters it doesn’t. And if she doesn’t have someone on her staff that was already fishing those waters, she doesn’t have the right people.

Second, it would have been much more important to recruit year one. You certainly can’t relegate that to year two while you set culture. Now, it is more convenient for your home life, etc if you don’t throw yourself into recruiting. But if the coach felt that way, you made the wrong hire.
Here's a list of the players that top coaches are recruiting now. Coaches can't send information until their sophomore year but they are in the gyms watching wearing their school logos;
2023 HoopGurlz Recruiting Rankings - Terrific 25 - ESPN

BTW, I understand that many schools have watched #3 including an italian guy.
 

lfvol

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Can you name a school that doesn't reach out to 8th and 9th grader players? It's the great recruiters who can spot the 8th and 9th graders to focus on. Every wbb board rips Walz for giving offers to so many young players, but he recruits. You're right about the need to get on the recruiting cycle during the first year but it's important to recognize that correcting the environment to facilitate recruiting was a part of KJH's job too. When KJH got here she had a team so weak in fundamentals they couldn't make a good pass. Players want to play with teams that share the ball efficiently and her first year team did not demonstrate that ability.
That makes sense.

On the “everyone is recruiting 8th and 9th graders“ point , the “recruiting” is extremely limited. More importantly, this is for the very, very elite kid who by 9th and 10th grade everyone knows since virtually all compete AAU. So, early signs of interest, which by the way takes virtually no time, is important with maybe a half dozen kids and you may see them at events you are attending anyway. However, recruiting the type of kids that end of being 30-100 in their class starts to require time for a formerly relevant program far later than 8/9th grade. And the vast majority of time invested is from recruiting support staff and assistants. Those kids are happy to have a school like TN start recruiting them.

All this to reinforce there are no excuses for 2022. We simply need to land an elite kid or two. The questions are, can KJH succeed at this critical responsibility and does she have an ace recruiter on her staff that can connect with top five talent. There is little talk on here about her staff’s recruiting chops but if she doesn’t have someone with those types of connections, she’s doing it wrong.
 
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VA_VOLFAN

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That makes sense.

On the “everyone is recruiting 8th and 9th graders“ point , the “recruiting” is extremely limited. More importantly, this is for the very, very elite kid who by 9th and 10th grade everyone knows since virtually all compete AAU. So, early signs of interest, which by the way takes virtually no time, is important with maybe a half dozen kids and you may see them at events you are attending anyway. However, recruiting the type of kids that end of being 30-100 in their class starts to require time for a formerly relevant program far later than 8/9th grade. And the vast majority of time invested is from recruiting support staff and assistants. Those kids are happy to have a school like TN start recruiting them.

All this to reinforce there are no excuses for 2022. We simply need to land an elite kid or two. The questions are, can KJH succeed at this critical responsibility and does she have an ace recruiter on her staff that can connect with top five talent. There is little talk on here about her staff’s recruiting chops but if she doesn’t have someone with those types of connections, she’s doing it wrong.
what is elite? does it have a range or number with it ? i feel like the “elite” bar changes all the time.... when i see we need an elite kid i get confused because i think Sara Puckett is “elite” because of not only the amount of schools who wanted her service but the quality of their programs.

Are we talking about elite athleticism kids because we got one of those too with Wynn and her ability to be on the top track athletes.

this isn’t an argumentative thing but i am really asking what elite means for people because i would like to know if we are meeting that bar. is it top 10 kids? is it mcdonald’s all americans? Or is elite one of those things were the bar is forever moving and people are gonna make it what it is...
 

NoBackBoard

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what is elite? does it have a range or number with it ? i feel like the “elite” bar changes all the time.... when i see we need an elite kid i get confused because i think Sara Puckett is “elite” because of not only the amount of schools who wanted her service but the quality of their programs.

Are we talking about elite athleticism kids because we got one of those too with Wynn and her ability to be on the top track athletes.

this isn’t an argumentative thing but i am really asking what elite means for people because i would like to know if we are meeting that bar. is it top 10 kids? is it mcdonald’s all americans? Or is elite one of those things were the bar is forever moving and people are gonna make it what it is...
Most people consider elite top 10 rankings.
 

GameTime

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Can you name a school that doesn't reach out to 8th and 9th grader players? It's the great recruiters who can spot the 8th and 9th graders to focus on. Every wbb board rips Walz for giving offers to so many young players, but he recruits. You're right about the need to get on the recruiting cycle during the first year but it's important to recognize that correcting the environment to facilitate recruiting was a part of KJH's job too. When KJH got here she had a team so weak in fundamentals they couldn't make a good pass. Players want to play with teams that share the ball efficiently and her first year team did not demonstrate that ability.
Outstanding post Rutgers....Simply outstanding!
 

Amb3096

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what is elite? does it have a range or number with it ? i feel like the “elite” bar changes all the time.... when i see we need an elite kid i get confused because i think Sara Puckett is “elite” because of not only the amount of schools who wanted her service but the quality of their programs.

Are we talking about elite athleticism kids because we got one of those too with Wynn and her ability to be on the top track athletes.

this isn’t an argumentative thing but i am really asking what elite means for people because i would like to know if we are meeting that bar. is it top 10 kids? is it mcdonald’s all americans? Or is elite one of those things were the bar is forever moving and people are gonna make it what it is...
Consensus Top 20 or McD AA's seems to be a reasonable benchmark. I'm sure Sara and Kaiya are good players...they just don't strike me as ones that are the centerpiece of a team with NC aspirations.
 

NeedOrange

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That makes sense.

On the “everyone is recruiting 8th and 9th graders“ point , the “recruiting” is extremely limited. More importantly, this is for the very, very elite kid who by 9th and 10th grade everyone knows since virtually all compete AAU. So, early signs of interest, which by the way takes virtually no time, is important with maybe a half dozen kids and you may see them at events you are attending anyway. However, recruiting the type of kids that end of being 30-100 in their class starts to require time for a formerly relevant program far later than 8/9th grade. And the vast majority of time invested is from recruiting support staff and assistants. Those kids are happy to have a school like TN start recruiting them.

All this to reinforce there are no excuses for 2022. We simply need to land an elite kid or two. The questions are, can KJH succeed at this critical responsibility and does she have an ace recruiter on her staff that can connect with top five talent. There is little talk on here about her staff’s recruiting chops but if she doesn’t have someone with those types of connections, she’s doing it wrong.
Agree on the 2022. At least one or two in the twenties to demonstrate movement. Interesting point on the ace recruiter. I'm not familiar with the LV staff so I can't comment. Typically the head coach is not the first point of contact with the player. An assistant makes the first contact and builds the relationship. Once a mutual interest is confirmed the head coach becomes the closer on the deal. the two of them then shepherd the player until the NLI is signed.
 
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