Nelson Mandela Found a Way to Completely Lose My Respect

#2
#2
So the rich should just horde their money? You know the wealthy can help out by setting up new industry and buying locally, they dont have to give money directly to poor people.

It didnt sound to me like he was saying to go out into the street and give up your wealth.
 
#3
#3
MontereyVol said:
So the rich should just horde their money? You know the wealthy can help out by setting up new industry and buying locally, they dont have to give money directly to poor people.

It didnt sound to me like he was saying to go out into the street and give up your wealth.
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It sounded to me like he's all about giving it away. He has had a bit of the entitlement mindset since he left prison and has been on his whirlwind tour. I don't think that has left him.

If he has in mind some sort of capitalist notion of the wealthy putting together businesses that employ people, take risk and add to the community, he would have been wasting his breath, because that is what they do by their nature. Horded cash is sure to dwindle over time.

I could be dead wrong, but I'm thinking he's calling it effectively immoral to have a bunch of money and not give it to the poor.
 
#4
#4
MontereyVol said:
So the rich should just horde their money? You know the wealthy can help out by setting up new industry and buying locally, they dont have to give money directly to poor people.

It didnt sound to me like he was saying to go out into the street and give up your wealth.
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thing is, the rich are very charitable already and how are they repaid? Barack Obama, and other socialists, promise to tax them even more out of "fairness". So yeah, in the face of not being being shown any gratitude and then having an even larger chunk of their money taken by force, maybe the rich should start hording their money.

screw socialists and their redistributionist policies.
 
#5
#5
Not a fan of just giving stuff away. But when you do, you shouldn't be doing it for gratitude.

as far as I know, Obama hasn't taken any money away from you. Seems he just sits back and lets people give it to him. which is fine, I choose to spend my money elsewhere.
 
#6
#6
#7
#7
SPIEGEL Interview with African Economics Expert: "For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!" - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

The Kenyan economics expert James Shikwati, 35, says that aid to Africa does more harm than good. The avid proponent of globalization spoke with SPIEGEL about the disastrous effects of Western development policy in Africa, corrupt rulers, and the tendency to overstate the AIDS problem.
SPIEGEL:

Mr. Shikwati, the G8 summit at Gleneagles is about to beef up the development aid for Africa...

Shikwati: ... for God's sake, please just stop.

SPIEGEL: Stop? The industrialized nations of the West want to eliminate hunger and poverty.

Shikwati: Such intentions have been damaging our continent for the past 40 years. If the industrial nations really want to help the Africans, they should finally terminate this awful aid. The countries that have collected the most development aid are also the ones that are in the worst shape. Despite the billions that have poured in to Africa, the continent remains poor.

SPIEGEL: Do you have an explanation for this paradox?

Shikwati: Huge bureaucracies are financed (with the aid money), corruption and complacency are promoted, Africans are taught to be beggars and not to be independent. In addition, development aid weakens the local markets everywhere and dampens the spirit of entrepreneurship that we so desperately need. As absurd as it may sound: Development aid is one of the reasons for Africa's problems. If the West were to cancel these payments, normal Africans wouldn't even notice. Only the functionaries would be hard hit. Which is why they maintain that the world would stop turning without this development aid.
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the old adage, "give a man a fish and he eats tonight, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime."
 
#9
#9
TennNC said:
Let me see. I wonder where Mandela might have come up with such a crazy notion...helping those less fortunate...hmm....

Oh - that's right. The New Testament and the Old Testament.

The Bible on the Poor
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that makes his view no less reprehensible to me.

Th bible also says vagrancy is a sin. How's that grab you.
 
#11
#11
BigPapaVol said:
Mandela's B-Day message: Rich should help poor - Yahoo! News
I know guys like him can't help their socialistic views, but he makes it out to be a responsibility of the wealthy to help those "less fortunate."

Just makes me cringe.
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Last week, the Spice Girls performed for 27,000 fans in Johannesburg. Nelson Mandela was there. He said, "These are my heroes. This is one of the greatest moments of my life."
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The Spice Girls - By David Plotz - Slate Magazine
 
#13
#13
BigPapaVol said:
Mandela's B-Day message: Rich should help poor - Yahoo! News
I know guys like him can't help their socialistic views, but he makes it out to be a responsibility of the wealthy to help those "less fortunate."

Just makes me cringe.
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Well, the African National Congress that Mandela was a memeber of was essentially a Marxist organization anyways... so this comment doesn't surprise me.

Not that I'm putting down their efforts to end apartheid back in the day...
 
#14
#14
BigPapaVol said:
that makes his view no less reprehensible to me.

Th bible also says vagrancy is a sin. How's that grab you.
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Will you point me to those verses?

If I understand you, I think it's comical that you're indignant that someone would call on those with means to help those without means.
 
#15
#15
MG1968 said:
SPIEGEL Interview with African Economics Expert: "For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!" - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News



the old adage, "give a man a fish and he eats tonight, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime."
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His criticism seems to be two-fold and contradictory.

On one hand, he's saying donations are wasted in bureaucracy and corruption, therefore not getting to the people who need it.

On the other hand, he's saying it's creating beggars, indicating it in fact is getting to the people who need it, but doing them more harm than good.

Which is it?

Is not a good portion of our funding tied to economic development (i.e. teaching them to fish) and basic means for survival (medicine and food)?

I wonder what the interviewee would think of the One campaign and all the damage it's doing the continent of Africa.

ONE | FrontPage
 
#16
#16
TennNC said:
Will you point me to those verses?

If I understand you, I think it's comical that you're indignant that someone would call on those with means to help those without means.
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My point, and I think BPV's point was that the rich already help a lot and there's only so much money you can throw at a problem and throwing money at poverty accomplishes very little since nothing is being done to actually lift the people out of poverty.
 
#17
#17
MG1968 said:
My point, and I think BPV's point was that the rich already help a lot and there's only so much money you can throw at a problem and throwing money at poverty accomplishes very little since nothing is being done to actually lift the people out of poverty.
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What do you think of the dozens of biblical verses that call for those with means to help those without means? Do they make you cringe?

"Throwing money" is a loaded term. I loathe inefficiency in any form. I loathe "handouts." I loathe "throwing money" at problems without actually getting your hands dirty - I'd be glad to talk more about that if you'd like. But I don't see every effort to help people get out of poverty as "throwing money" at the problem. Even more, I loathe the mindset of those who think they're doing those people a favor by ignoring them.

As I stated before, most of the aid to Africa is in fact geared toward economic development. We should lambaste corruption and waste, but not the efforts of those who want to lift them out of poverty. There should be standards for those running the programs we contribute to, but just b/c some greedy souls manipulate the system doesn't mean we should give up on trying to help those in need.
 
#18
#18
TennNC said:
What do you think of the dozens of biblical verses that call for those with means to help those without means? Do they make you cringe?

"Throwing money" is a loaded term. I loathe inefficiency in any form. I loathe "handouts." I loathe "throwing money" at problems without actually getting your hands dirty - I'd be glad to talk more about that if you'd like. But I don't see every effort to help people get out of poverty as "throwing money" at the problem. Even more, I loathe the mindset of those who think they're doing those people a favor by ignoring them.

As I stated before, most of the aid to Africa is in fact geared toward economic development. We should lambaste corruption and waste, but not the efforts of those who want to lift them out of poverty. There should be standards for those running the programs we contribute to, but just b/c some greedy souls manipulate the system doesn't mean we should give up on trying to help those in need.
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I agree.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying we should just stop trying to help Africa altogether, but there has to be a better way than what is being done now. Between ruthless despots like Mugabe and self-serving NGO's who'd rather serve a political agenda, much of the aid isn't going where it's intended.
 
#19
#19
TennNC said:
...If I understand you, I think it's comical that you're indignant that someone would call on those with means to help those without means.
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Out of curiosity….If one of your family members were a person "without means”, would you take care of them or perhaps seek help from churches and/or charities; OR would you expect the government to take money that we have earned away from us and give to them?
 
#20
#20
VolDad said:
Out of curiosity….If one of your family members were a person "without means”, would you take care of them or perhaps seek help from churches and/or charities; OR would you expect the government to take money that we have earned away from us and give to them?
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Not so easy. If they were shiftless drug addicts I would allow them to care for themselves. Unlike the government who does'nt care if you use drugs with the taxpayer's money.
 
#21
#21
VolDad said:
Out of curiosity….If one of your family members were a person "without means”, would you take care of them or perhaps seek help from churches and/or charities; OR would you expect the government to take money that we have earned away from us and give to them?
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I'll answer the question, but I don't know what it adds. Of course I'd help a family member if I had means and they didn't. I don't think most of the people who need help have family members or churches readily available to help them - otherwise they'd just get that help.

If I'm hungry, and I haven't eaten in a couple of days, I don't care where the meal comes from as long as I can eat. If I have rotting teeth, I don't care where the dental work comes from as long as I get it. If I'm stuck in a hole, I don't care who helps me out, as long as I get out.

Now, I have 2 questions for you. What % of your taxes do you think goes toward helping those without means? And what's the actual number?
 
#22
#22
A quick look at the budget and I would say about 60% goes towards some sort of entitlement program.

What do you think?

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#23
#23
TennNC said:
Will you point me to those verses?

If I understand you, I think it's comical that you're indignant that someone would call on those with means to help those without means.
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I don't care that you think it's comical. It's not the moral truism that Mandela points to it being. Additionally, the whole language regarding the poor has been softened by using terms like means and less fortunate, but he didn't except those too lazy or whose past is littered with poor decisions. The language also leaves out any mention of many of the wealthy having earned their means.

If we approached it the way of the Bible verses, the vagrants would have little.
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