Media Perception of Heupel Question

[GAVol]

Somewhat true, but the perception is that Heupel comes in hot, builds a program up, but cannot put the star on top.

Making that go away means beating the guys on top. He's gotten Bama a couple of times, hasn't gotten GA, needs to get TX this year, and needs to get OU.

What his record says is: starts strong but.....

Not sure you can draw a lot of conclusions based on being at a mid-major where the bar got abnormally high.

 

[GAVol]

Regardless, if we aren't in the playoffs NEXT year, he needs to go. I'll give him a pass this year because of the QB situation (unless we just completely tank) but not next year and not any year after! We are Tennessee! Our aspirations aren't 8 or 9 win seasons. It's to compete for conference and national championships! It makes zero sense to hold onto a coach that we KNOW isn't going to get us to that level.

And before anyone says it, the whole "well who are you going to replace him with" argument is stupid! Not EVERY successful coach was a known quantity that everyone knew would win! Nobody knew who Dabo was. Nobody knew who Cignetti was. Kirby Smart was an unproven head coach. Who knew who Clark Lea was? Stop it with the whole "Well there's nobody out there better" argument. You don't KNOW that and we can't be too scared to try to find him!

Clark Lea is exactly why this thinking doesn’t Quite work anymore though. Everything is now a function of NIL and the transfer portal and some good coaches are going to win 7-8 and a marginal coach will sometimes buy his way to a “Gene Chizik” season.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

So you're fine with meandering in mediocrity over risking terrible in the hopes of finding greatness? I hate this mentality!

I tell you one thing. While Florida has definitely been going through the wilderness since Urban Myer, I guarantee you they will win the SEC and/or a natty before we do again, because they're not afraid to keep looking for the right guy until they find him, even if that means risking more terrible seasons to do it.

FL is stuck hiring Sunbelt coaches looking for a winner. GA got lucky with Kirby. Sark remains unproven if he can get there. DeBoer remains unproven on his own. We'll see if Kiffin can push it through with LSU.

Edit: I'll toss in Auburn's "success" in getting a better coach than Gus. Not so far.

You act like "everyone else is winning championships" when it's not true. A lot of it is hitting that lucky year OR being a recruiting juggernaut for several years.

Luck, we might get, but being a recruiting juggernaut like Bama was, Ohio State is, and GA is hinges on STABILITY not swapping coaches all the time.

 

[Lankykong]

Clark Lea is exactly why this thinking doesn’t Quite work anymore though. Everything is now a function of NIL and the transfer portal and some good coaches are going to win 7-8 and a marginal coach will sometimes buy his way to a “Gene Chizik” season.

Also, have we seen how he is going to do without Pavia?

 

[OffTackleVol]

If the defense is good this year, and if we "play more physical" (especially the offensive line), Heupel will get credit by the end of this season for having made those staff changes.

But before next season, the new line will be, "But can he turn good decisions and good player development and good recruiting and a good culture into a successful playoff run?"

If you looked at college football like a board game, all the recent changes--NIL, portal, the playoffs--have only made more of the game subject to chance. Luck, injuries, crazy things no one can foresee or control, have more negative impact on success when you can't build and develop players for four years into your system.

Heupel is a builder and a players' coach. He maintains staff congruity by creating a family-welcoming work environment, and looks to promote from within his staff. All of these were major plusses in the old system. How he has rolled with the new "rules" and resultant chaos is, to me, maybe the most impressive thing about Heupel--as a coach and as a man.

Perhaps the "Post of the Year."

 

[Brave Volunteer]

FL is stuck hiring Sunbelt coaches looking for a winner. GA got lucky with Kirby. Sark remains unproven if he can get there. DeBoer remains unproven on his own. We'll see if Kiffin can push it through with LSU.

Edit: I'll toss in Auburn's "success" in getting a better coach than Gus. Not so far.

You act like "everyone else is winning championships" when it's not true. A lot of it is hitting that lucky year OR being a recruiting juggernaut for several years.

Luck, we might get, but being a recruiting juggernaut like Bama was, Ohio State is, and GA is hinges on STABILITY not swapping coaches all the time.

Okay. But I dont want to hear it if FL marches in here next season and curb stomps us.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Not sure you can draw a lot of conclusions based on being at a mid-major where the bar got abnormally high.

Heupel was always a "he's getting a step up to the big leagues" hire because no one else wanted to risk their career to step into a dumpster fire.

While mid major vs SEC is a big step, and we're seeing Heupel learn what from his offense will translate to the SEC and what won't, he's still spotty..... again.

Two things:
Money. I don't think we're getting enough to really get the talent year after year we will need to win. I don't know this but I think we're losing out on that extra "uumph" that gets us the top recruits and portal talent. Had Nico not busted, I think we'd be on a different trajectory as a destination school.

On field coaching. Heupel isn't to that elite, manage the clock like a master, get that killer play dialed up for the coming situation, make the best call under pressure level. He just isn't. We have a few head scratching calls, a few times when he's just bungled clock management, where the calls or decisions to go for it are less than optimal. He needs a strong OC, IMO, who will push him to get better on the field.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Okay. But I dont want to hear it if FL marches in here next season and curb stomps us.

You'll have a case against Heupel if they do but you still won't have a case FOR anyone else.

You say you don't want mediocrity but most mediocre programs do EXACTLY what you advocate: go coach searching every 5 or 6 years.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

You'll have a case against Heupel if they do but you still won't have a case FOR anyone else.

You say you don't want mediocrity but most mediocre programs do EXACTLY what you advocate: go coach searching every 5 or 6 years.

Mediocrity to me means "successful just enough to keep fans from meltdown mode but not enough to win anything significant".

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Mediocrity to me means "successful just enough to keep fans from meltdown mode but not enough to win anything significant".

That's 95%, perhaps more, of all programs. Most programs never win a Natty at all and many that do are in the Indiana category of "lightning in a bottle."

Your idea that UT will become some kind of dynasty with all kinds of wins for years like Bama was or be a destination school like Ohio State or an old school power like Clemson was..... isn't rooted in the reality of most programs.

 

[adam.vol]

That's 95%, perhaps more, of all programs. Most programs never win a Natty at all and many that do are in the Indiana category of "lightning in a bottle."

Your idea that UT will become some kind of dynasty with all kinds of wins for years like Bama was or be a destination school like Ohio State or an old school power like Clemson was..... isn't rooted in the reality of most programs.

Saban was the right coach at the right time for Bama, but it was only for Bama because he recognized a school willing to “go the extra mile” to secure talent. Tennessee has to be willing to offer more than any other school before we land the next Nick Saban, or that person will go elsewhere as usual..

As displayed by Plowman vs Pruitt and Aguilar vs Knox County, UT is too much of a rule follower to secure that type of advantage.. Even Vanderbilt (Pavia) is better at bending the rules.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Saban was the right coach at the right time for Bama, but it was only for Bama because he recognized a school willing to “go the extra mile” to secure talent. Tennessee has to be willing to offer more than any other school before we land the next Nick Saban, or that person will go elsewhere as usual..

Oregon is proof you can almost, but not quite, buy a Natty with years of throwing money at the program while "looking for that coach who can do it." It ain't that easy to find and hire "that coach" even with Nike money.

The suggestion is always: we'll get better but most schools don't with a revolving head coach door. They just don't.

You get better in this era by buying the players to plug your holes and a culture of discipline..... which is, not so surprisingly, how Saban did it.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

That's 95%, perhaps more, of all programs. Most programs never win a Natty at all and many that do are in the Indiana category of "lightning in a bottle."

Your idea that UT will become some kind of dynasty with all kinds of wins for years like Bama was or be a destination school like Ohio State or an old school power like Clemson was..... isn't rooted in the reality of most programs.

No, my idea is that we never stop trying! Willingly keeping a coach long-term, that you KNOW isn't going to get you to a championship level, for fear of becoming less than mediocre, is not trying, it's settling!

 

[adam.vol]

Oregon is proof you can almost, but not quite, buy a Natty with years of throwing money at the program while "looking for that coach who can do it." It ain't that easy to find and hire "that coach" even with Nike money.

The suggestion is always: we'll get better but most schools don't with a revolving head coach door. They just don't.

You get better in this era by buying the players to plug your holes and a culture of discipline..... which is, not so surprisingly, how Saban did it.

Only in isolated places like Tuscaloosa and Baton Rouge can you expect the NCAA too afraid to snoop around.

Back when two strangers might get lost on Ol’ Rocky Top, Tennessee was able to hire a legend like Neyland..

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

No, my idea is that we never stop trying! Willingly keeping a coach long-term, that you KNOW isn't going to get you to a championship level, for fear of becoming less than mediocre, is not trying, it's settling!

Look. This isn't magic. You somehow believe "there is this coach out there who can push us over the top and we have to find him."

What makes you actually believe that rubbish? Because it worked for GA? What also worked for GA was a dedicated recruiting strategy and lots of above and below table money poured into the program. It was NOT just "they got the right guy."

Many many many many more programs follow your advice and never get the right guy.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Only in isolated places like Tuscaloosa and Baton Rouge can you expect the NCAA too afraid to snoop around.

Back when two strangers might get lost on Ol’ Rocky Top, Tennessee was able to hire a legend like Neyland..

Meh, one can openly buy what you need now. The NCAA has as much bite as a day old baby now.

It's money, big money, and discipline, big discipline, that will win.

I'm of the opinion we could get the discipline with Heupel but I'm skeptical UT can sustain the money investments like the LSU, Ohio State, MI and probably TX now seem willing to do. JMO

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Meh, one can openly buy what you need now. The NCAA has as much bite as a day old baby now.

It's money, big money, and discipline, big discipline, that will win.

I'm of the opinion we could get the discipline with Heupel but I'm skeptical UT can sustain the money investments like the LSU, Ohio State, MI and probably TX now seem willing to do. JMO

We are a top NIL program. If it's JUST about money, why haven't we won more/recruited better under Huepel? NIL has been around for 5 years now. Why only 1 playoff appearance in 5 years? Why no conference championship appearances?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

We are a top 5 NIL program. If it's JUST about money, why haven't we won more/recruited better under Huepel?

Frankly, we're not a destination school and I'm skeptical our donors aren't gunshy after our busts. I don't think we'll be a top 10 NIL school for long, even if we splash hired..... I dunno.... Cignetti, Saban, anyone.

We're still not WR U, RB U, QB U, etc until we're tossing 8 or so guys into the NFL every year, not just some years, year after year after year.

Why come to UT over Ohio State where you're almost SURE to be in the CFP AND practice daily with a bunch of NFL talent?

 

[adam.vol]

Meh, one can openly buy what you need now. The NCAA has as much bite as a day old baby now.

It's money, big money, and discipline, big discipline, that will win.

I'm of the opinion we could get the discipline with Heupel but I'm skeptical UT can sustain the money investments like the LSU, Ohio State, MI and probably TX now seem willing to do. JMO

I don’t know where LSU is getting their capital, but this Kiffin stunt seems more like an “all in” rather than a sustainable flow.

Ohio State and Michigan seem like they’re dependent on some very sketchy billionaires and maybe those people can’t afford too many more fiascos like what Michigan has experienced in the past 3 years. Larry Ellison and Les Wexner seem like they would prefer to disappear from public attention these days.

If you’ll remember, Miami kind of faded for over a decade after Nevin Shapiro got sent to prison.. Now that I think about it, Miami started winning again the year Joe Biden commuted Shapiro’s sentence!

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Frankly, we're not a destination school and I'm skeptical our donors aren't gunshy after our busts. I don't think we'll be a top 10 NIL school for long, even if we splash hired..... I dunno.... Cignetti, Saban, anyone.

We're still not WR U, RB U, QB U, etc until we're tossing 8 or so guys into the NFL every year, not just some years, year after year after year.

Why come to UT over Ohio State where you're almost SURE to be in the CFP AND practice daily with a bunch of NFL talent?

Sorry, but you will NEVER convince me that "knowing our place" in the pecking order and being content with 2nd or 3rd tier is somehow a better approach than a riskier relentless pursuit of excellence approach.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I don’t know where LSU is getting their capital, but this Kiffin stunt seems more like an “all in” rather than a sustainable flow.

Ohio State and Michigan seem like they’re dependent on some very sketchy billionaires and maybe those people can’t afford too many more fiascos like what Michigan has experienced in the past 3 years.

There's some oil money for LSU, not Texas oil money, but oil money and they like to spend it and always have had "strong ass offers" when they need it.

Ohio State is just a huge machine, closer to a pro program, but their alumni base is huge and wealthy. Hate the place for many personal reasons but the school runs athletics like a major business and they take care of the business.

Michigan will fade, IMO. Cheating, chaos in administration, and a lack of leadership will sink them IMO.

I worry about TX and OU, with oil money to burn, and increasing discipline in the programs after getting to the SEC.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Sorry, but you will NEVER convince me that "knowing our place" in the pecking order and being content with 2nd or 3rd tier is somehow a better approach than a riskier relentless pursuit of excellence approach.

That's fine. I'll urge you to take an honest look at schools that use your "search for the guy" vs those who run stable long-term coach programs.

Nice discussion, though.

 

[adam.vol]

There's some oil money for LSU, not Texas oil money, but oil money and they like to spend it and always have had "strong ass offers" when they need it.

Ohio State is just a huge machine, closer to a pro program, but their alumni base is huge and wealthy. Hate the place for many personal reasons but the school runs athletics like a major business and they take care of the business.

Michigan will fade, IMO. Cheating, chaos in administration, and a lack of leadership will sink them IMO.

I worry about TX and OU, with oil money to burn, and increasing discipline in the programs after getting to the SEC.

The best thing about Texas is there are lots of big time schools in Texas for that oil money to compete against.

Wexner has donated something like $200,000,000 to Ohio State, so their other boosters probably have money to spare.

Here’s something interesting I saw while down at the beach a little while back:


Apparently there is some oil money down in Alabama also. “97% of US offshore oil and gas production”. Not exactly sure what that means, but it sounds significant.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The best thing about Texas is there are lots of big time schools in Texas for that oil money to compete against.

Wexner has donated something like $200,000,000 to Ohio State, so their other boosters probably have money to spare.

Here’s something interesting I saw while down at the beach a little while back:

View attachment 840011
Apparently there is some oil money down in Alabama also. “97% of US offshore oil and gas production”.

I think that's more "corporate oil" than personal wealth from the dirt oil like Texas and Oklahoma.

It's hard to squeeze football money out of Chevron.

Edit: maybe SpongeBob could throw some money at Bama. Their fans and he have similar IQs.

 

[OffTackleVol]

Heupel was always a "he's getting a step up to the big leagues" hire because no one else wanted to risk their career to step into a dumpster fire.

While mid major vs SEC is a big step, and we're seeing Heupel learn what from his offense will translate to the SEC and what won't, he's still spotty..... again.

Two things:
Money. I don't think we're getting enough to really get the talent year after year we will need to win. I don't know this but I think we're losing out on that extra "uumph" that gets us the top recruits and portal talent. Had Nico not busted, I think we'd be on a different trajectory as a destination school.

On field coaching. Heupel isn't to that elite, manage the clock like a master, get that killer play dialed up for the coming situation, make the best call under pressure level. He just isn't. We have a few head scratching calls, a few times when he's just bungled clock management, where the calls or decisions to go for it are less than optimal. He needs a strong OC, IMO, who will push him to get better on the field.

Yea, those 2 plays and a FG with only 15 seconds to play vs The Gumps were probably an anomaly.