Losing the game's integrity: fudging the rules to allow 4 pivot feet?

[BruisedOrange]

Rules are for the good of any game. The evolution of basketball as a spectator sport has always been in the direction of speeding up the pace of the game and allowing more movement. More action is good!

To allow defense to evolve with those changes, the rules for guarding and fouling have been gradually adjusted to allow for more "judgement calls" -- like when bigs are bumping and leaning to establish (or defend) position. Allowable contact.

But some rules just have to be called by the letter, otherwise, the whole concept of good defensive position would disappear. What would happen to defense if offensive players could double- or triple-dribble? That's like, what would chess be if pawns could move 3 spaces? ...or 1.5 spaces?

This is not a complaint about a specific non-call in the Montana game. It's just a good example of a trend that is getting worse in both the men's and women's games. Beyond negating good defense, I'm contending it threatens the integrity and the watch-ability of the game.
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I saw this remarkable offensive play by Montana's outstanding player, Money Williams (0), against Gainey's usually sound defense. So I watched it again, just to appreciate how Money did it. Well... he did it by using 4 pivot feet after he picked up his dribble!

Add one more European step to that, and you've got an Olympic track & field event!

[The green circle follows his right foot through the sequence.]

What happens to the integrity of the game itself when the rules are fudged to this extent?

 

[Dadof2Vols]

It’s a movement to NBA LACK of rules that I don’t watch anymore for this reason and why I watch very little Mens NCAAB other than UT…..

 

[Dadof2Vols]

Also why Nascar is losing viewership because same people win and rules are different for different teams….

 

[Golfprovol]

Rules are for the good of any game. The evolution of basketball as a spectator sport has always been in the direction of speeding up the pace of the game and allowing more movement. More action is good!

To allow defense to evolve with those changes, the rules for guarding and fouling have been gradually adjusted to allow for more "judgement calls" -- like when bigs are bumping and leaning to establish (or defend) position. Allowable contact.

But some rules just have to be called by the letter, otherwise, the whole concept of good defensive position would disappear. What would happen to defense if offensive players could double- or triple-dribble? That's like, what would chess be if pawns could move 3 spaces? ...or 1.5 spaces?

This is not a complaint about a specific non-call in the Montana game. It's just a good example of a trend that is getting worse in both the men's and women's games. Beyond negating good defense, I'm contending it threatens the integrity and the watch-ability of the game.
-------
I saw this remarkable offensive play by Montana's outstanding player, Money Williams (0), against Gainey's usually sound defense. So I watched it again, just to appreciate how Money did it. Well... he did it by using 4 pivot feet after he picked up his dribble!

Add one more European step to that, and you're in Olympic track & field event territory!

[The green circle follows his right foot through the sequence.]
View attachment 697463
What happens to the integrity of the game itself when the rules are fudged to this extent?

Guys have been doing that move for years, suppose to jump off both feet but they usually dont....rarely gets called if ever.

 

[cardvolfan]

Rules are for the good of any game. The evolution of basketball as a spectator sport has always been in the direction of speeding up the pace of the game and allowing more movement. More action is good!

To allow defense to evolve with those changes, the rules for guarding and fouling have been gradually adjusted to allow for more "judgement calls" -- like when bigs are bumping and leaning to establish (or defend) position. Allowable contact.

But some rules just have to be called by the letter, otherwise, the whole concept of good defensive position would disappear. What would happen to defense if offensive players could double- or triple-dribble? That's like, what would chess be if pawns could move 3 spaces? ...or 1.5 spaces?

This is not a complaint about a specific non-call in the Montana game. It's just a good example of a trend that is getting worse in both the men's and women's games. Beyond negating good defense, I'm contending it threatens the integrity and the watch-ability of the game.
-------
I saw this remarkable offensive play by Montana's outstanding player, Money Williams (0), against Gainey's usually sound defense. So I watched it again, just to appreciate how Money did it. Well... he did it by using 4 pivot feet after he picked up his dribble!

Add one more European step to that, and you're in Olympic track & field event territory!

[The green circle follows his right foot through the sequence.]
View attachment 697463
What happens to the integrity of the game itself when the rules are fudged to this extent?

Good stuff. My take on these non-calls is that if it looks too remarkably good it probably is.

 

[BruisedOrange]

Guys have been doing that move for years, suppose to jump off both feet but they usually dont....rarely gets called if ever.

But... three times in the same dribble-free move to a scoring basket???

 

[BruisedOrange]

My fantasy movie would be for a good, modern high school basketball player to suddenly find himself back in 1964 with all his incredible basketball skills, and going out for the team.

Almost nothing in his arsenal of moves, even basics like dribbling, would get past a 1960's referee's whistle.

(Of course, in my movie, he adjusts to the 1960 rules and learns to find success on the court in hustle, natural ability, and character-related aspects of the game.)

 

[VolGee4]

Guys have been doing that move for years, suppose to jump off both feet but they usually dont....rarely gets called if ever.

I went back and watched the highlight, and it was somewhat subtle. But officials college level or higher are trained to see it. He actually re-positioned his pivot foot before his jump. Clear violation. It is definitely a move that the NBA allows a bunch.

 

[StickMan]

The one that kills me, and it's really prevalent in the women's game, is when a player with the ball comes to a jump stop and then takes two more steps to the bucket. In my day that was clearly traveling, but it's now allowed. Drives me crazy.

 

[VollerNbham]

The one that kills me, and it's really prevalent in the women's game, is when a player with the ball comes to a jump stop and then takes two more steps to the bucket. In my day that was clearly traveling, but it's now allowed. Drives me crazy.

Men's game too along with palming the ball while dribbling. Basketball is not what basketball used to be at all, it used to be a clean game that took much more effort to guard and play a foul free game.

 

[KTrain]

It’s a movement to NBA LACK of rules that I don’t watch anymore for this reason and why I watch very little Mens NCAAB other than UT…..

Exactly, I have not watched a complete NBA game since the late 80s. I watch bits and pieces when a Vol is playing is why I know. I just do not like this game that the NBA adopted the NYC street ball rules, a far cry from what Naismith envisioned. The game will as all others do evolve but when you see Lebron and their money makers taking 4 steps and Officials swallowing their whistles, just a sad sport IMO and that's why I just don't watch.

 

[ButchPlz]

I barely watch basketball anymore because there are way too many judgement calls and like with many sports, it seems like officiating is getting worse and worse and/or more and more biased (intentionally or not). Just look at how Edey got to play all year last year- the rulebook for him was totally different than for everyone else.

The sport needs to get back to black and white rules. Who cares if we have an insufferable year or two of whistles while players adjust, get it back to the game it was supposed to be. Right now it's mostly a ref-interrupted and confusing mess to watch anyway.

 

[BruisedOrange]

I barely watch basketball anymore because there are way too many judgement calls and like with many sports, it seems like officiating is getting worse and worse and/or more and more biased (intentionally or not). Just look at how Edey got to play all year last year- the rulebook for him was totally different than for everyone else.

The sport needs to get back to black and white rules. Who cares if we have an insufferable year or two of whistles while players adjust, get it back to the game it was supposed to be. Right now it's mostly a ref-interrupted and confusing mess to watch anyway.

With money driving the presentation and the product, we're seeing the "professional wrestling-ization" of all sports (...aka "NASCAR-ization").

Baseball's rules seem the least vulnerable to jiggering, but I don't see anything but highlights or videos of BaseVols games. Is MLB resisting the siren call?

 

[cardvolfan]

With money driving the presentation and the product, we're seeing the "professional wrestling-ization" of all sports (...aka "NASCAR-ization").

Baseball's rules seem the least vulnerable to jiggering, but I don't see anything but highlights or videos of BaseVols games. Is MLB resisting the siren call?

There have been unprecedented changes, but not so much that it makes the game totally unattractive to me.

 

[Voltopia]

The one that kills me, and it's really prevalent in the women's game, is when a player with the ball comes to a jump stop and then takes two more steps to the bucket. In my day that was clearly traveling, but it's now allowed. Drives me crazy.

The inevitable creep of the moronic "gather step" that's infected basketball from the top down.

 

[Lefteye]

There have been unprecedented changes, but not so much that it makes the game totally unattractive to me.

Agree. If anything the pitch clock has helped draw me back in. Seeing hitters step out after every pitch, swing or not, and readjust their batting gloves was driving me nutz.

 

[cardvolfan]

Agree. If anything the pitch clock has helped draw me back in. Seeing hitters step out after every pitch, swing or not, and readjust their batting gloves was driving me nutz.

I grew up watching MLB players check their nuts at least 2-3 times every at bat.

 

[tennrich1]

I grew up watching MLB players check their nuts at least 2-3 times every at bat.

And way back....watch them spit tobacco juice on the ground. Once was just a part of the game.

 

[tennrich1]

Exactly, I have not watched a complete NBA game since the late 80s. I watch bits and pieces when a Vol is playing is why I know. I just do not like this game that the NBA adopted the NYC street ball rules, a far cry from what Naismith envisioned. The game will as all others do evolve but when you see Lebron and their money makers taking 4 steps and Officials swallowing their whistles, just a sad sport IMO and that's why I just don't watch.

I agree 100%. I tried to watch a little of the Lakers game (of course to see DK) and I literally saw James take 6 shots from deep in a row on 6 straight possessions, missing all 6 and Spurs (i think) turn it into points on the other end. Maybe there's an audience for that....just not in my house.

 

[Jax_Vol]

Rules are for the good of any game. The evolution of basketball as a spectator sport has always been in the direction of speeding up the pace of the game and allowing more movement. More action is good!

To allow defense to evolve with those changes, the rules for guarding and fouling have been gradually adjusted to allow for more "judgement calls" -- like when bigs are bumping and leaning to establish (or defend) position. Allowable contact.

But some rules just have to be called by the letter, otherwise, the whole concept of good defensive position would disappear. What would happen to defense if offensive players could double- or triple-dribble? That's like, what would chess be if pawns could move 3 spaces? ...or 1.5 spaces?

This is not a complaint about a specific non-call in the Montana game. It's just a good example of a trend that is getting worse in both the men's and women's games. Beyond negating good defense, I'm contending it threatens the integrity and the watch-ability of the game.
-------
I saw this remarkable offensive play by Montana's outstanding player, Money Williams (0), against Gainey's usually sound defense. So I watched it again, just to appreciate how Money did it. Well... he did it by using 4 pivot feet after he picked up his dribble!

Add one more European step to that, and you're in Olympic track & field event territory!

[The green circle follows his right foot through the sequence.]
View attachment 697463
What happens to the integrity of the game itself when the rules are fudged to this extent?

I remember that bucket. Seems we followed it with a timeout of some sort. Gainey was pointing and complaining to ref about something.

Williams did it so smoothly that I thought he just out-quicked the defense.

 

[Lefteye]

I grew up watching MLB players check their nuts at least 2-3 times every at bat.

 

[Lefteye]

And way back....watch them spit tobacco juice on the ground. Once was just a part of the game.

Lenny Dykstra would be 3rd basing with his jaw.

 

[papatomany]

Guys have been doing that move for years, suppose to jump off both feet but they usually dont....rarely gets called if ever.

It's only been the last few years that they've allowed lifting your pivot foot to jump off your non-pivot foot. Drives me nuts.

 

[adam.vol]

I love that analogy of pawns moving 3 spaces. It’s not the same game if the rules are changed.

The player I thought about was Ganzaga’s Timme, who played with Chet Holgram. That guy was allowed to swap pivot feet while making post moves at 7 feet tall. He was a lumbering clod, but man could he shake while moving from pivot foot to pivot foot.

The other move that has truly changed the game is carrying stopped getting called. You can pick up your dribble to change direction, as long as you only use one hand. The defense comes out of their stance to contest a shot, and then you just dribble on by them or into them for a foul.

 

[BruisedOrange]

I love that analogy of pawns moving 3 spaces. It’s not the same game if the rules are changed.

The player I thought about was Ganzaga’s Timme, who played with Chet Holgram. That guy was allowed to swap pivot feet while making post moves at 7 feet tall. He was a lumbering clod, but man could he shake while moving from pivot foot to pivot foot.

The other move that has truly changed the game is carrying stopped getting called. You can pick up your dribble to change direction, as long as you only use one hand. The defense comes out of their stance to contest a shot, and then you just dribble on by them or into them for a foul.

Actually saw it called in a recent Lady Vols game--first time in ages! It was technically obvious, but the odd thing was, she was just bringing the ball up the court undefended. I think that's what earned the call. If she'd done it at the elbow against a defender, making a lateral move... no whistle?