Lock out!

#3
#3
I wouldn’t say this was out of nowhere. Relations have been rocky for a long time. Not surprised it happened to be honest. And besides biscuits n gravy and blondes, baseball is the only other thing worth waiting around for.
 
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#5
#5
IluvdoubleD's said:
still no-one has told me what they could they could possibly want?
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It's always the same tug o' war with various side issues that eventaully point back to the same issue . . . The players want a bigger share of the revenue and don't trust the numbers that the owners present.

Among other things - Players think the middle of the road guys are getting squeezed in free agency and they want to be able to enter the free agent market earlier than 6 years of service time.
 
#6
#6
C/O said:
I wouldn’t say this was out of nowhere. Relations have been rocky for a long time. Not surprised it happened to be honest. And besides biscuits n gravy and blondes, baseball is the only other thing worth waiting around for.
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I don't follow baseball that closely, but people in the sports circles I'm in acted as if a lockout was a foregone conclusion.
 
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#7
#7
What is main sticking point in the negotiations between the owners and players?

Economics. Players feel, with the emergence of analytics within front offices, that fewer and fewer second- and third-tier players are getting paid when they finally become free agents after six years of major league service time, which is often when a player turns 30 or very close to it. In general, players would like to be paid more at younger ages because that's when they are in their prime. The system also favors keeping players in the minor leagues for several weeks extra to slow down their major league service time. Players hate that. Additionally, they feel the cycle of teams rebuilding (aka tanking) is limiting payrolls. They would like some guardrails within the system to prevent those cycles. One good thing for the players: As long as there is no salary cap, the system will always pay the best of the best -- something the league likes to emphasize. Owners haven't even offered a hard cap during negotiations.

It's official: Everything you need to know about MLB's lockout
 
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#9
#9
The issue too is the players see other sports and see that other players hit some form of free agency earlier than they can. An NHL player can hit FA after 3 years. NBA 4 years. NFL 4-5 years. Baseball players usually hit FA after 7 years (because of the stupid service time manipulation). Not only that, most of those players if they’re good don’t spend time in a minor league system unless you’re in the NHL (and even still they can accrue time to become a FA even in the minors with ELC contracts).

In baseball a player might need to spend 4-5 years in the minors to develop or might need TJ surgery that delays their debut by a year or two. While the arbitration process gives the player a chance to make money without the teams saying, there’s still flaws: it’s a one year contract, you’re not negotiating against other teams and arbitration doesn’t really factor analytics, devaluing some players.

For example. Max Fried is one of the top 20 pitchers in baseball. If he hit the market this year he’s probably get a $100M contract, minimum. However thanks to TJ surgery, service time manipulation, and the Braves rebuild during his prospect years, he’s not going to be a FA till after the 2024 season when he’s 31. He’s also pitched in five different seasons and (yes COVID devalued his earning as well) based on my estimations made about $5.5M. Now he’s a first round bonus baby so he’s not hurting. But still the Braves have (if you think 1 WAR= $8M as estimated and Max has 12.3 career WAR) have gotten $96M worth of value and that doesn’t include he’s been a big game pitcher in the playoffs that’s helped win them a World Series.

Of course baseball clearly doesn’t want to lose these guys to FA earlier. But that’s gonna be the biggest thing right now. If they don’t agree or negotiate that it’s gonna be a while.
 
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#10
#10
But it's a lockout right, not a strike, so this is the owners protesting, not the players. Or, rather the owners are protesting the players wanting more when they are making 100 million contracts.

yeah, this sounds billionaires arguing with billionaires. Think will be over pretty quickly? I imagine if it's all over more millions they wouldn't want to have a stoppage after spring right? IDK, this seems really stupid and messy, but I'm not a billionaire... here's to hoping we have a season. I don't follow closely either, but from time to time i get into a game, and I always enjoy a day at the park.
 
#11
#11
IluvdoubleD's said:
But it's a lockout right, not a strike, so this is the owners protesting, not the players. Or, rather the owners are protesting the players wanting more when they are making 100 million contracts.

yeah, this sounds billionaires arguing with billionaires. Think will be over pretty quickly? I imagine if it's all over more millions they wouldn't want to have a stoppage after spring right? IDK, this seems really stupid and messy, but I'm not a billionaire... here's to hoping we have a season. I don't follow closely either, but from time to time i get into a game, and I always enjoy a day at the park.
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It's billionaires vs. millionaires and some almost millionaires. Basically, the players immediately took what the owners view as a hard line with their demands and the owners are responding with

 
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#12
#12
IluvdoubleD's said:
But it's a lockout right, not a strike, so this is the owners protesting, not the players. Or, rather the owners are protesting the players wanting more when they are making 100 million contracts.

yeah, this sounds billionaires arguing with billionaires. Think will be over pretty quickly? I imagine if it's all over more millions they wouldn't want to have a stoppage after spring right? IDK, this seems really stupid and messy, but I'm not a billionaire... here's to hoping we have a season. I don't follow closely either, but from time to time i get into a game, and I always enjoy a day at the park.
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The other problem is this: We have the dumbest commissioner in sports and the dumbest union head who both have overinflated egos and stupidly decide that they should make snide comments and leak information to the media instead of being professionals and acting like we are children. It’s gonna be messy.
 
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#15
#15
No one knows how long this could go. Last I heard, both sides were pretty far apart. Could be a few months before anything is done.
 
#17
#17
68ss said:
Who gives a **** about a bunch of whining millionaires? Have them great a real job.
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It doesn’t matter if a person makes 12 million a year or 35 thousand a year, everyone is entitled to a shot at what they feel is just and fair.
 
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#18
#18
Then they can quit and go some where else. I will try to understand your thinking. Lol. NOT. So you feel sorry for a person who makes a **** ton of money for nothing? And then bitch about the people who pay them? **** them. Get a job. I feel the same for all athletes. Enjoy what you get.
 
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#19
#19
i do not follow baseball well, as I've already stated. But, sounds like players want more freedom, not more money. The owners are saying "if we pay you a dump truck of cash... you do your job." just my interpretation. if you take the money, you owe. you fulfill your contract. Am i seeing this wrong?
 
#20
#20
IluvdoubleD's said:
i do not follow baseball well, as I've already stated. But, sounds like players want more freedom, not more money. The owners are saying "if we pay you a dump truck of cash... you do your job." just my interpretation. if you take the money, you owe. you fulfill your contract. Am i seeing this wrong?
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The CBA has expired, hence the time for negotiation. The owners have paid players a bunch of cash, and the players have fulfilled their contracts and done their jobs. However the labor agreement has expired so both sides are negotiating a new one.

Also, I find it funny how in professional sports most people instinctively take the side of "the man" (management/the owners), where if this was a discussion in any other industry most people would instinctively take the side of the little guy (labor/the players). You hear a lot of belly-aching about greedy players, but not greedy owners (who already have more money than all the players). It's such a contrast to labor discussions in regular industries (i.e., the auto industry) where there is an instinctive tendency for the public to side with labor, even if labor's demands are unreasonable or unfeasible.

Yes, many players are millionaires, but many are not. In contrast, all the owners are multi-millionaires, if not billionaires. Before I get flamed, I say this as somebody that hates unions.
 
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#22
#22
IluvdoubleD's said:
really, all you have to say is their contracts are up and they are renegotiating. That makes sense.
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Not all the individual player contracts. The CBA expired, which dictates how they divvy up revenue among a host of other things. Currently they have no working agreement on how to split the revenue between the players and the owners.
 
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