Lady Vols Unranked In Both Polls

[Golfteacher]

Well the Lady Vols are unranked for the first time this year. I don’t that we can throw all the blame on CKC, or even their players. This mess falls squarely upon AD White. He hired a coach with no D1 experience at the highest level. She came with a new way of playing the game. Her scheme was to press the ball constantly, throw up a bunch of threes and ware the opponent down until they are dog tired by subbing hockey style. It is a style that has never been adopted by other major DI programs and a good chance it never will. Defences started playing zones daring the Lady Vols to shoot threes, however, especially major D1 programs, the Lady Vols threw up more bricks than threes. Players lost focus and as the season went on, they seem to ware out before their opponents.

After the failures to revive the Lady Vols by hiring two of Pat’s own former players, AD White went out and made an unconventional hire which was a gamble. CKC believes in her system and I give her kudos for that, however, it does not seem to work against major D1 programs like the top of the SEC. AD White has placed CKC in a no win situation especially after she said that she can only coach one way. He was willing to take a risk that CKC’s system would revive the Lady Vols. Great coaches have the ability to change up their system to meet the demands dictated by how other opponents play. We are at a turning point, CKC needs to change her system or find players who can get the job done. However, whatever the situation is the buck stops at AD White’s desk. I really believe that AD White needs to have a heart to heart talk with CKC.

 

[Okie]

I think that if someone is the coach, they get the glory and the blame. As well as a fairly big paycheck. No sympathy here for any coach or player in today's market. I don't know whether the current coaches in any sport will really work out, short or long term. The business is so different than when past championships were being won.

As far as Danny White, I am not sure that any coach can sell you on their "system" working or not anymore and be accurate. If you don't have players, regardless of the system, then it's not going to work. Unless you have an unlimited bankroll, choices have to be made about who gets $ for NIL. The more good/great teams you have/want, the more overall you will have to spend. It comes down to making the best educated guess you can for an athletics director. Win some/lose some, but hopefully with quality people who don't get you on probation.

Even then, it all has to be divided up. Could we have had a better FB team if another $500k was spent there instead of BB/WBB/SB/etc. ? Maybe, maybe not. Would another $250k help get WBB the players needed to win? Maybe.

It could be that things that we historically dominated - WBB - are just that. History. The current model is about spending significantly where your top revenue producers are, and for all the greatness that WBB was or could be, it won't be a top revenue producer. That makes it harder for everyone.

 

[rickyyrs]

Well the Lady Vols are unranked for the first time this year. I don’t that we can throw all the blame on CKC, or even their players. This mess falls squarely upon AD White. He hired a coach with no D1 experience at the highest level. She came with a new way of playing the game. Her scheme was to press the ball constantly, throw up a bunch of threes and ware the opponent down until they are dog tired by subbing hockey style. It is a style that has never been adopted by other major DI programs and a good chance it never will. Defences started playing zones daring the Lady Vols to shoot threes, however, especially major D1 programs, the Lady Vols threw up more bricks than threes. Players lost focus and as the season went on, they seem to ware out before their opponents.

After the failures to revive the Lady Vols by hiring two of Pat’s own former players, AD White went out and made an unconventional hire which was a gamble. CKC believes in her system and I give her kudos for that, however, it does not seem to work against major D1 programs like the top of the SEC. AD White has placed CKC in a no win situation especially after she said that she can only coach one way. He was willing to take a risk that CKC’s system would revive the Lady Vols. Great coaches have the ability to change up their system to meet the demands dictated by how other opponents play. We are at a turning point, CKC needs to change her system or find players who can get the job done. However, whatever the situation is the buck stops at AD White’s desk. I really believe that AD White needs to have a heart to heart talk with CKC.

Yeah i think he does need to have a talk with her. Changing them out like a hockey line is not working. It might work against less talented teams in smaller colleges. Then when you do have a player get hot from the field. You take them out every 3 or 4 minutes. The press give up way too many easy lay ups. Put your best 5 players on the court and sub one or two at a time.

 

[Deebowbear]

Yeah i think he does need to have a talk with her. Changing them out like a hockey line is not working. It might work against less talented teams in smaller colleges. Then when you do have a player get hot from the field. You take them out every 3 or 4 minutes. The press give up way too many easy lay ups.

Don’t think he needs to tell her how to run her system especially when to sub players. If so he needs to be the coach, that’s called micromanaging. If he does this we will never will get any coach to ever come here that’s all sports. Now if he sits down with all coaches to see and help fix things that’s a different story.

 

[Chippo]

Don’t think he needs to tell her how to run her system especially when to sub players. If so he needs to be the coach, that’s called micromanaging. If he does this we will never will get any coach to ever come here that’s all sports. Now if he sits down with all coaches to see and help fix things that’s a different story.

Don't think she will ever change.jmo

 

[zeppelin128]

There's plenty of blame to go around, but the majority of the issues start and end with one person: Kim Caldwell.

AD White needs to swallow his pride, recognize he made a mistake, and rectify the situation.

The program has been teetering on a knife's edge for over a decade now; if allowed to continue, this "style" of play and coaching malpractice will kill it for good.

 

[1reVOLver]

The program has been teetering on a knife's edge for over a decade now;

The program hyperbole has been teetering on a knife's edge for over a decade now;

There, FIFY.

You’re welcome.

 

[lilesrt]

There's plenty of blame to go around, but the majority of the issues start and end with one person: Kim Caldwell.

AD White needs to swallow his pride, recognize he made a mistake, and rectify the situation.

The program has been teetering on a knife's edge for over a decade now; if allowed to continue, this "style" of play and coaching malpractice will kill it for good.

I agree. The program can’t live on “what once was” forever. The time to win is now.

 

[OrangeBeachVol]

After 2 tries with Pat's coaching tree, I think it was the right decision to go outside the LV program. Jury is still out whether he made a bad choice or not. She will get another season to correct things then we know.

Besides who among Pats exes (coaches or players) are out there to get or that would come here? Lots of pressure with this job, coaches know that and quick hooks don't help.

 

[BruisedOrange]

I've read and given thought to all the critiques of CKC and her system, both here and elsewhere, and I'm still not convinced by the arguments.

I won't be convinced until I see
1) her players
2) playing her system as she teaches it
3) for 4 quarters
4) still get beat.

In one and two-thirds seasons, that is something neither I nor anyone else has ever seen.

It may turn out to be that the speed and length of players at this level effectively changes the dimensions of the court so that something in the system breaks down. But we don't know yet because we've only seen her Tennessee teams lose when they weren't executing the gameplan for that matchup.

Every coach is "average" or a failure... until they're not.

 

[SNAFU]

Imagine if Coach K started the way he did at Duke with this fan base’s patience. It hasn’t been 2 years with CKC. Will she adapt? I believe so. Will it work? Time will tell but if she’s let go after just 2 years than this program will likely be in worse shape than it currently is.

 

[zeppelin128]

View attachment 816625


There, FIFY.

You’re welcome.

No need to fix anything in my post, I see an upper mid-tier SEC program. Your highlighted portion of the image shows that, too.

Tennessee should be elite, that means consistent SEC regular season titles (none since 2015) and Final Fours.

ETA: I don't expect Final Four appearances every year. I do expect at the very least one in a decade.

 

[VolFan_stuck_in_the_901]

Imagine if Coach K started the way he did at Duke with this fan base’s patience. It hasn’t been 2 years with CKC. Will she adapt? I believe so. Will it work? Time will tell but if she’s let go after just 2 years than this program will likely be in worse shape than it currently is.

1. Comparing the modern game of basketball to the game 40 years ago is like comparing apples to oranges
2. Surely you aren't suggesting that CKC is any way comparable to Coach K

 

[Volfan2012]

Not ranked but overnight we did move up to number 21 in the NET and 28 in the WAB which is plus 17 above the bubble team.

 

[glv98]

I've read and given thought to all the critiques of CKC and her system, both here and elsewhere, and I'm still not convinced by the arguments.

I won't be convinced until I see
1) her players
2) playing her system as she teaches it
3) for 4 quarters
4) still get beat.

In one and two-thirds seasons, that is something neither I nor anyone else has ever seen.

It may turn out to be that the speed and length of players at this level effectively changes the dimensions of the court so that something in the system breaks down. But we don't know yet because we've only seen her Tennessee teams lose when they weren't executing the gameplan for that matchup.

Every coach is "average" or a failure... until they're not.

These are her players. Only three players on this roster were not recruited by Kim and staff. Of those, Wynn is a nonfactor, Boyd has been minimalized as to be inconsequential, and only Cooper is an impact player.

Maybe you mean with her NEXT set of players. The last portal class they chose has underperformed, even though it was highly ranked at the time. They failed to bring in any leadership and have also failed to develop any. Maybe next time, but these are very much their players.

Actually, it's been widely stated that they did better last year because of the carryover of Kellies players.

 

[glv98]

It may turn out to be that the speed and length of players at this level effectively changes the dimensions of the court so that something in the system breaks down

I googled an article the other day on why more teams don't play this type system if it's so successful from time to time.

Increased skill of players, especially ball handlers, was one of the main reasons it fell out of favor. The guards just got too good. Also coaching against this system was cited as a reason. Elite coaches simply designed better press breaks. This is why the system works less the higher up the elite chain you go, as we've seen painfully this yr.

Speaking of breaking the press, another reason cited was the high failure rate. When those elite guards break the trap, you're dead meat for an open layup. That ring a bell for anyone? There's no amount of effort or hustle that will allow you to overcome the mismatch caused by trapping, especially against elite ball handlers.

The need for very specialized, rigorous training, and extra wear and tear on athletes bodies, was another reason the system fell out of favor. For this reason, It also does not translate to the next level which can be a drawback for elite recruits.

Interestingly, excessive fouling caused by the pressure defense was another turn off for coaches. So maybe its not just the refs?

I'm interested to see if CKC is able to overcome all these drawbacks, even with the "right" players. If she cant pull it off, I can only imagine the depths we'll be at this time next year. We're already at depths I thought unimaginable. I guess that's why it's high risk high reward

 

[Orange007]

i find myself in the minority lately around here but i actually really love the system and still believe in it. however, the system needs effort and shooters to work. this has never been a secret. she has said this since day one. so, without those things, the system does not work well against top competition. i guess the main question is will tn be able to have teams under CKC who give their ALL for TN and include some 3 point shooters. if so, i still believe we can be elite with CKC. if not, the wolves will keep circling the hen house. it is what it is...

 

[texas_vol2]

View attachment 816625


There, FIFY.

You’re welcome.

I'm no doomsdayer but. . . It is all relative. If your expectations are just to make the tournament, then yeah that's a good run.

For this program, my hopes are we make the final four, every year. If the coach and players don't have this expectation then they are at the wrong place.

 

[KTrain]

I googled an article the other day on why more teams don't play this type system if it's so successful from time to time.

Increased skill of players, especially ball handlers, was one of the main reasons it fell out of favor. The guards just got too good. Also coaching against this system was cited as a reason. Elite coaches simply designed better press breaks. This is why the system works less the higher up the elite chain you go, as we've seen painfully this yr.

Speaking of breaking the press, another reason cited was the high failure rate. When those elite guards break the trap, you're dead meat for an open layup. That ring a bell for anyone? There's no amount of effort or hustle that will allow you to overcome the mismatch caused by trapping, especially against elite ball handlers.

The need for very specialized, rigorous training, and extra wear and tear on athletes bodies, was another reason the system fell out of favor. For this reason, It also does not translate to the next level which can be a drawback for elite recruits.

Interestingly, excessive fouling caused by the pressure defense was another turn off for coaches. So maybe its not just the refs?

I'm interested to see if CKC is able to overcome all these drawbacks, even with the "right" players. If she cant pull it off, I can only imagine the depths we'll be at this time next year. We're already at depths I thought unimaginable. I guess that's why it's high risk high reward

What was your search phrase for this article , I tried to goggle it and can't find.

 

[glv98]

i find myself in the minority lately around here but i actually really love the system and still believe in it. however, the system needs effort and shooters to work. this has never been a secret. she has said this since day one. so, without those things, the system does not work well against top competition. i guess the main question is will tn be able to have teams under CKC who give their ALL for TN and include some 3 point shooters. if so, i still believe we can be elite with CKC. if not, the wolves will keep circling the hen house. it is what it is...

Pretty simple. And so convenient. Coach is never at fault, nor has much responsibility.

My ideas are perfect too. Its just the lazy slugs I hired to implement them who can't get it right.

IMO one of the worst things this season has done is create a total US vs. Them culture on so many fronts.

 

[KTrain]

I'm no doomsdayer but. . . It is all relative. If your expectations are just to make the tournament, then yeah that's a good run.

For this program, my hopes are we make the final four, every year. If the coach and players don't have this expectation then they are at the wrong place.

Ever year there are 350 schools eligible for the NCAA tournament minus 68 make tournament= 282 don't make it and are failures
68 teams make the NCAA tournament 68-64= 64 get knocked out and don't make the Final 4, they have failed their fanbase hopes.

 

[glv98]

AI Overview



"40 Minutes of Hell," the high-tempo, full-court pressing style made famous by Nolan Richardson at Arkansas in the 1990s, fell out of favor due to
changes in officiating, improved player skill sets, and the extreme difficulty of maintaining such a physically demanding system without superior athleticism.
View attachment 815763Wikipedia +1
The system relied on overwhelming opponents through intense pressure, depth, and constant speed, resulting in immense success—including the 1994 national championship—before fading as the game evolved.
View attachment 815765Southeastern Conference +4
Here are the primary reasons "40 Minutes of Hell" fell out of favor:

• Changes in Officiating and Rules: The style heavily relied on physical, aggressive defense to force turnovers. As referee points of emphasis changed, particularly concerning hand-checking and freedom of movement, playing that style without fouling became much harder.
• Improved Ball Handling and Basketball IQ: Modern college basketball players are more skilled at handling pressure, breaking full-court presses, and playing against zone traps than in previous decades.
• Extreme Conditioning and Depth Requirements: The system requires intense conditioning and "buy-in" from at least 8-9 players to keep the pressure fresh. If a team lacks the depth or superior athleticism to maintain that pace, the pressure breaks down, and the team allows easy baskets.
• Counter-Strategies: Opponents learned to break the press, slow down the game (taking the air out of the ball), and utilize the full shot clock to neutralize the frantic pace.
• High Risk of Failure: If the press fails to create turnovers, it often results in giving up easy layups on the other end.
• Nolan Richardson's Departure: The system was highly personalized to Richardson. Following his departure from Arkansas in 2002, the program moved away from the style. While Mike Anderson (a former assistant to Richardson) continued the style at UAB and later Arkansas, it didn't achieve the same consistent top-tier national dominance, leading to the perception that the style had become less effective over time.
  View attachment 815764The Players' Tribune +4

While some coaches still use elements of the press, the pure "40 Minutes of Hell" style became difficult to maintain at a championship level in the modern era.
View attachment 815766Reddit

What was your search phrase for this article , I tried to goggle it and can't find.

Question was why 40 mins of hell fell out of favor. Closest I could come.

I've always wondered why elite coaches with a stable full of thoroughbred athletes don't run this system. That's what led me to ask.

 

[1reVOLver]

For this program, my hopes are we make the final four, every year. If the coach and players don't have this expectation then they are at the wrong place

You are onto something here. You distinguish hopes and expectations. Many fans don’t. I share your hopes. My expectations, however, are based on facts rather than desires. Our program history over the past dozen years doesn’t justify a final four expectation in the immediate future.

The landscape has changed substantially in recent years. The portal has vastly increased—for better and worse—players' ability to change teams. NIL favors the few teams with lots of money to spend, and reduces the relative attraction of the LVs' proud history. Where once there were a handful of clearly exceptional teams competing for the top high school talent (and we were one of the very best), now there are many more. And sadly, our recent history of being pretty darn good but not exceptional is visible to all.

Coaching at the highest level is relatively immobile. Consider which coaches have won a natty or competed in the FF. McGraw retired. Van derVeer retired. Mulkey is nearing retirement age, and Auriemma is there. Frese is close behind. Ditto Shaefer. None of these is apt to move. All are already making lots of money.

Who else has championship level credentials? Dawn Staley. Earns a ton, is admired and appreciated where she has built a top notch program, has no incentive, monetary or otherwise, to change locales.

That leaves our AD a number of mid-major choices, one of whom is in her second year with us. I'm sure she is aiming at the E8 and FF. I'd be surprised if her players do not share those targets. Getting there may take a while. Among the P4 ranks, candidates might include the coaches at UNC , Louisville, and Duke, and for lots of reasons those are dicey or off the table.

Summing up, you and I share a hope. Expectations based in today’s reality are a little more modest than the hopes.

 

[1reVOLver]

I've read and given thought to all the critiques of CKC and her system, both here and elsewhere, and I'm still not convinced by the arguments.

I won't be convinced until I see
1) her players
2) playing her system as she teaches it
3) for 4 quarters
4) still get beat.

That is a reasonable basis for skepticism.

So is the corollary:


I won't be convinced the program is any good until I see
1) her players
2) playing her system as she teaches it
3) for 4 quarters
4) success in the SEC

The jury’s out.

 

[RetroVol]

Pretty simple. And so convenient. Coach is never at fault, nor has much responsibility.

Don't think that's exactly what the OP was saying in noting the need for player commitment. Again, it's not either/or. But, it is hard for a coach to evaluate a system when players choose to only run it sporadically, when they don't push through and commit with effort and focus when things aren't going well. So, if we weren't watching players loaf down the court on defense (on occasion, and not all players), not pass the ball (on occasion), wave at players going by them on defense (on occasion), etc. then you'd have an irrefutable position. I've already said that I think Kim and her staff are in a tough position for evaluating and changing their approach at this level due to spotty effort of this year's team. And, yes, in some ways, you can blame that on Kim and her staff. But, it is what it is at this point and they're going to have to get through the rest of this season as best they can. AND, I have also said that there are reasons -- some of which I've only started to think through this year -- to wonder about her system as-is at this level. So, typical "fog of war." She's going to have to consult with staff, look at everything, and make decisions without this year having been as good a test of her system against SEC competition that it could have been.