KY Forum's take on UT/GA blowout, Crean and Barnes

#51

vols1221

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#51
I've watched and studied more basketball than the average person has spent studying for a masters degree, and ive written on Jordan before. Try these stats on for size (and unlike you, I don't have to cite someone else)

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen, Onle won one playoff GAME without pippen, despite having near 40ppg in those, including a then rookie record scoring average. He never had a series he wasn't favored in in the finals, and was part of 5 of the 10 BEST statistical TEAMS (as in, OTHER than him) ever, including 3 of the top 5, and until recently, was 2 of the top 3.

For comparison Lebron single handedly dragged two of the worst three teams (again, other than him statistically) to the finals ever. Both times against two of the three best dynasties since the 80s. The only worse team to reach the finals? Iverson's 76ers.

But whats that matter, After all when Jordan left the Bulls for his "baseball" (gambling ban) they were terrible and all right? Oh, wait. Pippen just destroyed everyone, finished 3rd in MVP voting, and the team only had two less wins than the year before? But Jordan is the GOAT right? How was his team so damn good without him? Surely it couldn't be the top 30 player all time, the best defensives player and rebounder of his generation, and the GOAT NBA coach who also just happened to be on that team, right?

People who still argue Jordan as the best are the same who think Tom Brady is too, without wanting to mention literally everything else factored in.

If you can plug random player #46 and your team not drop off very far? You have a great team. If missing one player makes your team go from championship caliber to lottery bad? You have a GOAT potential player.

This isn't a hard concept, but its the same deal as any generation in anything else. Everyone wants what they grew up in to be the best, and the facts are it never was and never will be. In 25 years someone will outpace Lebron just as he has been better than Jordan for years already now. It won't be anyone currently because the only potential candidates had to literally form a super team of six hall of fame caliber players and one sure fire (maybe two depending on how good Walton ends up being) hall of fame coaches to stop him. And they still barely did it.

Again. Two guys of Jordan's tier and 4 more of Pippen's tier had to get together and be coached by a guy just below Red/Riley/Popovich/Jackson's level just to beat ONE player.

If that isn't the GOAT, then you don't understand the meaning of the word.

Well I’ve seen more people try to be douchy, and tell me how smart they are (in parenthesis no less). Than the average high school stoner.

If you didn’t notice pretty much everyone disagrees with you. You’re just a MJ hater. I know this because of you “(gambling ban)” comment. Had his Dad not been murdered he doesn’t retire, and probably wins 8 straight!
 
#52

Unimane

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#52
I've watched and studied more basketball than the average person has spent studying for a masters degree, and ive written on Jordan before. Try these stats on for size (and unlike you, I don't have to cite someone else)

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen, Onle won one playoff GAME without pippen, despite having near 40ppg in those, including a then rookie record scoring average. He never had a series he wasn't favored in in the finals, and was part of 5 of the 10 BEST statistical TEAMS (as in, OTHER than him) ever, including 3 of the top 5, and until recently, was 2 of the top 3.

For comparison Lebron single handedly dragged two of the worst three teams (again, other than him statistically) to the finals ever. Both times against two of the three best dynasties since the 80s. The only worse team to reach the finals? Iverson's 76ers.

But whats that matter, After all when Jordan left the Bulls for his "baseball" (gambling ban) they were terrible and all right? Oh, wait. Pippen just destroyed everyone, finished 3rd in MVP voting, and the team only had two less wins than the year before? But Jordan is the GOAT right? How was his team so damn good without him? Surely it couldn't be the top 30 player all time, the best defensives player and rebounder of his generation, and the GOAT NBA coach who also just happened to be on that team, right?

People who still argue Jordan as the best are the same who think Tom Brady is too, without wanting to mention literally everything else factored in.

If you can plug random player #46 and your team not drop off very far? You have a great team. If missing one player makes your team go from championship caliber to lottery bad? You have a GOAT potential player.

This isn't a hard concept, but its the same deal as any generation in anything else. Everyone wants what they grew up in to be the best, and the facts are it never was and never will be. In 25 years someone will outpace Lebron just as he has been better than Jordan for years already now. It won't be anyone currently because the only potential candidates had to literally form a super team of six hall of fame caliber players and one sure fire (maybe two depending on how good Walton ends up being) hall of fame coaches to stop him. And they still barely did it.

Again. Two guys of Jordan's tier and 4 more of Pippen's tier had to get together and be coached by a guy just below Red/Riley/Popovich/Jackson's level just to beat ONE player.

If that isn't the GOAT, then you don't understand the meaning of the word.
Why is LeBron making the Finals a bunch of times some kind of amazing accomplishment? He ran through an ungodly awful Eastern conference for a decade, which had no team worth a damn, then usually lost to the first good team he played in the Finals. Then, in his must defining championship win, who has the ball in his hands to win the title? Not LeBron.

He's an amazing player, but I've been watching ball since the 80s and James is not greater than Jordan and maybe not even Magic.
 
#53

k-town_king

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#53
Why is LeBron making the Finals a bunch of times some kind of amazing accomplishment? He ran through an ungodly awful Eastern conference for a decade, which had no team worth a damn, then usually lost to the first good team he played in the Finals. Then, in his must defining championship win, who has the ball in his hands to win the title? Not LeBron.

He's an amazing player, but I've been watching ball since the 80s and James is not greater than Jordan and maybe not even Magic.
In talent or "Best Player Ever" top 2 or 3.

Not a top 5 "Greatest" player. He doesn't have the accomplishments in big moments or the chips. Too many disappearing acts in the clutch and too many beatdowns when they play a decent team in the playoff.


If they reseeded the playoff teams 1-16 James may only have 1 or 2 Finals appearances. He beat up on trash then got to the Finals with the easy path.
 
#55

Daloth

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#55
Well I’ve seen more people try to be douchy, and tell me how smart they are (in parenthesis no less). Than the average high school stoner.

If you didn’t notice pretty much everyone disagrees with you. You’re just a MJ hater. I know this because of you “(gambling ban)” comment. Had his Dad not been murdered he doesn’t retire, and probably wins 8 straight!
I'm not an MJ hater, by any means. He's the 2nd or 3rd best player all time. Try polling the ages of the people disagreeing and youll get your answer (and itll be very douchey, in parentheses, becuse you apparantly don't even know the plural of the word pretending to be smart.)

People don't like changing their opinions, especially not when facts come into play. The church fought a heliocentric universe for decades, the deplorables fight evolution and common sense today, and in 20 years in basketball when most of the older sportswriters are gone and dead and say "yeah, it really wasn't even that close when you look at it without rose tinted glasses and use facts, numbers, and actually watching the two players and teams play." Same issue with Baseball hall of fame voting, same issue with senators staying on too long, it all boils down to the same thing, older generations die out and get replaced by better and smarter people, and it will happen to the real GOAT, Lebron, as well. Time and evolution don't care about your childhood memories.
 
#57

The Dog

Because I Can
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#57
I'm not an MJ hater, by any means. He's the 2nd or 3rd best player all time. Try polling the ages of the people disagreeing and youll get your answer (and itll be very douchey, in parentheses, becuse you apparantly don't even know the plural of the word pretending to be smart.)

People don't like changing their opinions, especially not when facts come into play. The church fought a heliocentric universe for decades, the deplorables fight evolution and common sense today, and in 20 years in basketball when most of the older sportswriters are gone and dead and say "yeah, it really wasn't even that close when you look at it without rose tinted glasses and use facts, numbers, and actually watching the two players and teams play." Same issue with Baseball hall of fame voting, same issue with senators staying on too long, it all boils down to the same thing, older generations die out and get replaced by better and smarter people, and it will happen to the real GOAT, Lebron, as well. Time and evolution don't care about your childhood memories.
So LeBron is the best in your opinion and MJ is 2nd of 3rd ? So who is right before MJ or right behind him ?

Yes, I grew up in the late 70s thru the 80s, so Jordan is the goat, imo with Magic 2nd (winning championships count, imo). LeBron is definitely top 5 for me, probably 3rd, but there's a big gap from 3rd to 1st, tho. MJ, Magic, LeBron, Hakeem and Bird are my starting 5 of all-time greats. I'm 48, so I never saw Wilt, Russell and Oscar, tho, I would still put them in my top 10, with Bernard King (with healthy knees for his whole career, what could have been) and Isiah Thomas (Hoosier/Piston/Winner, best player 6' or under). Tim Duncan and Kobe are my 11th and 12th men. Gotta put Kareem, Barkley and Shaq to round off my 15 man roster. Obviously, I'm a 80's kinda guy
 
#58

vols1221

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#58
I'm not an MJ hater, by any means. He's the 2nd or 3rd best player all time. Try polling the ages of the people disagreeing and youll get your answer (and itll be very douchey, in parentheses, becuse you apparantly don't even know the plural of the word pretending to be smart.)

People don't like changing their opinions, especially not when facts come into play. The church fought a heliocentric universe for decades, the deplorables fight evolution and common sense today, and in 20 years in basketball when most of the older sportswriters are gone and dead and say "yeah, it really wasn't even that close when you look at it without rose tinted glasses and use facts, numbers, and actually watching the two players and teams play." Same issue with Baseball hall of fame voting, same issue with senators staying on too long, it all boils down to the same thing, older generations die out and get replaced by better and smarter people, and it will happen to the real GOAT, Lebron, as well. Time and evolution don't care about your childhood memories.

So you’re saying that all younger people are smarter than all older people? One thing I can guarantee you. Is that when you do get older you learn how dumb the younger you was.

I’m not sure if you read any of the other posts in here, but pretty much everyone is saying it’s MJ. I guess you just smarter than the rest of us! We’re just blinded by our old age I guess...
 
#59

Charlie Kelly

We're Crab People now, Dee.
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#59
You must not be old enough to remember MJ. He is in fact the GOAT, and that opinion is shared by most knowledgeable basketball fans. No modern players can match what MJ did on offense, and defense. First player in history with 200 steels, and a hundred blocks in a season while also averaging 37 ppl. One of two players ever to break 3,000 points in a season. Still hold the record for most points in a playoff game 63. Only rookie to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists and steals. Only guard to record 2500+ points over 5 consecutive regular seasons. Only player to tally 250+ steals, 125+ blocks in the same season. Jordan is the only player to average 40+ points per game for an entire playoff series more than twice, and he's done it 5 TIMES! One of those came in the 1993 NBA Finals against the Phoenix Suns, while the other 4 came in the Eastern Conference playoffs (once against the Cavaliers in 1988, in which he averaged 45.2 ppg - the highest for any player in a single playoff series).

Everything in bold was sourced from

Page 5 - Michael Jordan stats - 5 untouchable feats of His Airness
MJ is the GOAT. It is what it is. And I'm a Lakers fan. Have been my entire life. Kobe is my favorite player of all time. And MJ was better.

You also forgot to mention that MJ played in an Era where players were actually allowed to play defense. Not this bulls*** hand-check nonsense we have to endure these days. I'm so tired of seeing James Harden throw his hands up in the air on a drive and watching him shoot free throws that my eyes may bleed the next time I watch a Rockets game.
 
#60

Charlie Kelly

We're Crab People now, Dee.
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#60
I've watched and studied more basketball than the average person has spent studying for a masters degree, and ive written on Jordan before. Try these stats on for size (and unlike you, I don't have to cite someone else)

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen, Onle won one playoff GAME without pippen, despite having near 40ppg in those, including a then rookie record scoring average. He never had a series he wasn't favored in in the finals, and was part of 5 of the 10 BEST statistical TEAMS (as in, OTHER than him) ever, including 3 of the top 5, and until recently, was 2 of the top 3.

For comparison Lebron single handedly dragged two of the worst three teams (again, other than him statistically) to the finals ever. Both times against two of the three best dynasties since the 80s. The only worse team to reach the finals? Iverson's 76ers.

But whats that matter, After all when Jordan left the Bulls for his "baseball" (gambling ban) they were terrible and all right? Oh, wait. Pippen just destroyed everyone, finished 3rd in MVP voting, and the team only had two less wins than the year before? But Jordan is the GOAT right? How was his team so damn good without him? Surely it couldn't be the top 30 player all time, the best defensives player and rebounder of his generation, and the GOAT NBA coach who also just happened to be on that team, right?

People who still argue Jordan as the best are the same who think Tom Brady is too, without wanting to mention literally everything else factored in.

If you can plug random player #46 and your team not drop off very far? You have a great team. If missing one player makes your team go from championship caliber to lottery bad? You have a GOAT potential player.

This isn't a hard concept, but its the same deal as any generation in anything else. Everyone wants what they grew up in to be the best, and the facts are it never was and never will be. In 25 years someone will outpace Lebron just as he has been better than Jordan for years already now. It won't be anyone currently because the only potential candidates had to literally form a super team of six hall of fame caliber players and one sure fire (maybe two depending on how good Walton ends up being) hall of fame coaches to stop him. And they still barely did it.

Again. Two guys of Jordan's tier and 4 more of Pippen's tier had to get together and be coached by a guy just below Red/Riley/Popovich/Jackson's level just to beat ONE player.

If that isn't the GOAT, then you don't understand the meaning of the word.
LeBron is a phenomenal talent but has only recently became a phenomenal player. The last 6 years have been amazing, but before that he was just a stat stuffer who lacked a competitive edge. He's definitely top 10 of all time and a lot of people would put him top 5. I've got him 6th or 7th. If he can win a title in L.A., then he moves up even higher.

LeBron has been the beneficiary of the eradication of the hand-check rule: which allows him to drive to the rim with minimal effort and a good chance of drawing a foul without much contact. And he has also benefitted from an ungodly awful Eastern conference during his playing days. He usually has never faced a decent team until the conference finals or NBA finals and then usually, he promptly lost to them. Two of his 3 Finals wins were very, very fortunate to say the least. Probably shouldn't have won those. Sure, his supporting cast wasn't great but take Kobe for example: those 2008-2010 teams were god-awful outside of him. He had Pau Gasol and a bunch of mismatched pieces. And he won 2 out of his 3 Finals series those 3 seasons. Beating a clearly better 2010 Boston team in the process. Competitive edge and fire matter, as anyone who has ever played competitive sports will tell you. It's infectious to the entire team.

And LeBron has deficiencies to his game. He's a slightly above average jump shooter and is straight up plain and average with a hand in his face. Barely above average at the free throw line indicating a technically unsound/streaky jumpshot. He also has been known to take plays off on defense to conserve stamina. The guy is amazing and I love watching him play, but he is far from the GOAT. Pretty much every basketball fan over the age of 25 is going to agree with me here man. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're definitely in the minority here. Both 5-on-5 and 1-on-1, there have been better players than LeBron in NBA history.
 
#62

PandamoniumReigns

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#62
And LBJ and his fans will skew facts or generate new stats to help their argument.

Example...LBJ's streak of consecutive games scoring in double figures. Why is his Finals debacle against the Mavs of 8 points left out of the streak? Because it would hurt the LbJ defender's argument.
 

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