Kentucky

[IluvdoubleD's]

kensucky

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

I understand the point you’re both making and I agree that the next decade is critical in making us relevant again. I think the difference between us and some of those other schools is that most people don’t remember those schools being elite, and certainly not for maintaining their success over a long period of time. Our brand is much more recognizable than any of those 3 programs and I think our ability to get back to where we once were is much more attainable than those other 3. I really hope that Heupel is the answer. I think that even if he’s not going to bring us championships he will make our program much more attractive than it has been in a very long time.

Yeah, I'm certainly not saying we are as bad off as any of those programs right now. I'm just saying they all enjoyed great success, sustained success in the past. Georgia Tech is still 20th all time in wins, and it's now largely forgotten. If we don't get it turned around in the next 10 years or so, we're at the same risk, i.e., being where they are, not now but 10-20 years from now.

 

[Rylee_Vol18]

Do we now??

Tell me more about these top defenses in the SEC.

Speaking of UCF, the last time they played against an "SEC" defense it put 32 points against it...
The next year that SEC team went 15-0.

Why am I assuming?? Uhm...maybe because EVERY offense Heupel has ever coached has been top 25 !
Even at lowly Mizzou with their 3 star players galore.

Friendly wager?

 

[Otis1105]

Oh really?
Then what does last years game have to do with this year????
See how that works?

No evidence? No kidding. They've not played a game yet!! You're so wise...

Every offense he's ever coached has been top 25...so that's the evidence at hand.

But keep believing UK is actually better if you want. And let's just ignore history...Heupels offensive track record; UTs historical dominance of UK....lets just not even give it ANY credit

I didn’t say last years game has anything to do with this years game. That’s the difference in my comment and yours.

 

[VolFreakJosh]

Shut down this troll thread

 

[ftsandersvol]

No, but they are at least on par with us now. How sad.

 

[Longshank]

Why are you assuming we'll have a top 30 offense? This ain't UCF, we play teams with actual defenses.

I think he will come up with some type of offense vs weaker teams. The defense is scary and not in a good way. This is a dumpster fire. I dont expect much next season. See where it goes from there.

 

[Longshank]

That kind of stuff matters to fans, especially when there's not much else to hang out collective hat on.

Recruits though, no it just doesn't matter these days. The reality of our recent mass transfer from the program of a significant portion of the most highly ranked recruits of the last few cycles is proof enough of that. They want to win. They want the best chance of getting prepared for the NFL. That is the reality or modern college football.

Heupel starts winning on the field, and he'll win on the recruiting trail. No amount of talking up a "winning tradition" is going to convince a recruit who has their eyes set in entering the NFL as a 1st or 2nd round pick in three years, if there isn't a measure of on-the-field success.

Its almost like basketball where players come to a school for the coach not the program.
If your a top TE or WR in sec country and bama or florida offer, you go. Look at what they do with them. They go to the NFL. Hard to recruit with a blank sheet vs success.

 

[LittleVol]

Friendly wager?

And what exactly are we betting on?

 

[sjt18]

That kind of stuff matters to fans, especially when there's not much else to hang out collective hat on.

Recruits though, no it just doesn't matter these days. The reality of our recent mass transfer from the program of a significant portion of the most highly ranked recruits of the last few cycles is proof enough of that. They want to win. They want the best chance of getting prepared for the NFL. That is the reality or modern college football.

Heupel starts winning on the field, and he'll win on the recruiting trail. No amount of talking up a "winning tradition" is going to convince a recruit who has their eyes set in entering the NFL as a 1st or 2nd round pick in three years, if there isn't a measure of on-the-field success.

You are largely correct. Early on, a new coach sells this:

- the last guy was a bum (may not say it but will lead the recruit to that trough)
- we've done it before and have all the resources to do it again... and quickly
- we have a unique and great culture that will make you the best person and football player you can be
- you are a major piece of rising up
- you will have the opportunity to play and play early
- our facilities and S&C staff are among the best in sports
- we have the greatest player developers in college football (hyperbole)
- you will have a great opportunity to showcase your ability on television every game
- you will have an opportunity to play against the best and show the NFL how good you are
- WE ARE RIGHT AT THE THRESHOLD OF GREATNESS. We are on the rise. We just need you and a few guys like you and before you leave we will be competing with Bama.

I know they're selling that last one based on what multiple recruits have said in interviews.

Jones sold a version of this well... that wily old used car salesman. But if you don't win it doesn't work after year 2 or 3. Jones' recruiting fell off pretty sharply even after winning 9 games a couple of times. Recruits recognized... and rival recruiters reminded them constantly... that Jones' 9 win seasons should have been 10+ win seasons and weren't specifically because he isn't a very good coach.


Heupel or whoever finally pulls UT out of this funk will have to make recruits believe. They'll have to do things on the field that are universally recognized as overachievements. Strictly for recruiting purposes, I'm not sure Heupel wouldn't have more to sell if he goes 7-5 and keeps the UF/UGA/Bama losses within 10 points than if he goes 9-3 and gets blown out by those 3. One says, "We're this close". The other shouts that UT is nowhere close.

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

You are largely correct. Early on, a new coach sells this:

- the last guy was a bum (may not say it but will lead the recruit to that trough)
- we've done it before and have all the resources to do it again... and quickly
- we have a unique and great culture that will make you the best person and football player you can be
- you are a major piece of rising up
- you will have the opportunity to play and play early
- you will have a great opportunity to showcase your ability on television every game
- you will have an opportunity to play against the best and show the NFL how good you are
- WE ARE RIGHT AT THE THRESHOLD OF GREATNESS. We are on the rise. We just need you and a few guys like you and before you leave we will be competing with Bama.

I know they're selling that last one based on what multiple recruits have said in interviews.

Jones sold a version of this well... that wily old used car salesman. But if you don't win it doesn't work after year 2 or 3. Jones' recruiting fell off pretty sharply even after winning 9 games a couple of times. Recruits recognized... and rival recruiters reminded them constantly... that Jones' 9 win seasons should have been 10+ win seasons and weren't specifically because he isn't a very good coach.


Heupel or whoever finally pulls UT out of this funk will have to make recruits believe. They'll have to do things on the field that are universally recognized as overachievements. Strictly for recruiting purposes, I'm not sure Heupel wouldn't have more to sell if he goes 7-5 and keeps the UF/UGA/Bama losses within 10 points than if he goes 9-3 and gets blown out by those 3. One says, "We're this close". The other shouts that UT is nowhere close.

 

[sjt18]

View attachment 372486

Didn't say it was true... I said that's what they have to sell in order to get talent early on.

Not later than year 3.. they better have on the field results that they can sell.

 

[Rylee_Vol18]

And what exactly are we betting on?

We won't be top 30 offense. Avatar bet

 

[Ten_Titans]

Why are you assuming we'll have a top 30 offense? This ain't UCF, we play teams with actual defenses.

Defenses in the SEC were waaaay tougher the last time Heupel was in the SEC... when he still had an elite offense in terms of national ranking.

 

[BeardedVol]

- WE ARE RIGHT AT THE THRESHOLD OF GREATNESS. We are on the rise. We just need you and a few guys like you and before you leave we will be competing with Bama.

I know they're selling that last one based on what multiple recruits have said in interviews.

Oh, I don't doubt that's what he's trying to sell, the problem, is that he's trying to sell it to people who weren't even cognizant of football the last time UT made an SECCG appearance. He's going to have to show his and his staff's ability to coach, and develop before he's getting top recruits to consider UT again. I'm sure he'll snag a few guys looking for early playing time, or who in spite of being 4*, would still be 3rd man at a top school, but as we've seen with previous coaches, getting few 4* players and a bunch of 3* projects doesn't cut it in the SEC unless you can maximize the talent. He's going to have to win before he can make a serious run at top recruits.

 

[BigOrangeAl 1979]

Oh, I don't doubt that's what he's trying to sell, the problem, is that he's trying to sell it to people who weren't even cognizant of football the last time UT made an SECCG appearance. He's going to have to show his and his staff's ability to coach, and develop before he's getting top recruits to consider UT again. I'm sure he'll snag a few guys looking for early playing time, or who in spite of being 4*, would still be 3rd man at a top school, but as we've seen with previous coaches, getting few 4* players and a bunch of 3* projects doesn't cut it in the SEC unless you can maximize the talent. He's going to have to win before he can make a serious run at top recruits.

Exactly!

 

[bicenTENNial]

What I said is completely accurate right now in comparing our football team and theirs. This isn’t Tenneseee football of the 90’s.

But still better than Kensucky

 

[TNnative]

Unfortunately I can see our SEC title drought which is now at 23 years hitting 30 years and each year that passes by we slip further and further into irrelevancy. Here’s hoping Heupel can get this thing turned around.

Well, I feel he has a better chance than any coach since Fulmer. Looking at the overall history since his firing, it always seemed to me that feuding factions surrounding the program have undermined the program over and over, until it lead to Fulmer being hired as AD. And that undermining it finally peaked with the firing of Pruitt, and Fulmer "stepping down".

I am hopeful this feud has finally been settled, but cannot be sure of that. It has pretty much become a habit. And I fear it is a hard one to break. Like having dogs that can't be housebroken.

 

[Vol Main]

I would use teams like Colorado, Nebraska, Miami, Texas etc as falling off in our lifetime, those were all mighty at one time not Ole Miss, GT and Arkansas.

Some of us were around during the latter seasons.

"Johnny Vaught established himself as a coaching legend in the SEC over 24 seasons as head coach of the Ole Miss football program from 1947-1970. He remains the only coach in Ole Miss history to win an SEC championship, winning six conference titles while coaching the Rebels (in 1947, 1954, 1955, 1960, 1962 and 1963). Vaught’s teams won three national championships, all in a four-year span (1959, 1960 and 1962). He led the Rebels to 18 bowl games while serving as head coach, including 14 seasons in a row from 1957-1970. He was a six-time SEC Coach of the Year and was inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame in 1979.
Only two coaches recorded winning records against Vaught during their careers: Paul “Bear” Bryant (7-6-1 against Vaught) and Roberty Neyland (3-2)."
Johnny Vaught

https://www.livinghistory.gatech.ed...&ecid=20769&crid=0&calpgid=10143&calcid=21066

5 best seasons in Arkansas football history

 

[sjt18]

Oh, I don't doubt that's what he's trying to sell, the problem, is that he's trying to sell it to people who weren't even cognizant of football the last time UT made an SECCG appearance.

That doesn't matter as much as you think if they can get the kid on campus and walk him through UT history and tradition. It is an education process but most kids are more impressed with a school that was EVER there than one that has never been relevant.

He's going to have to show his and his staff's ability to coach, and develop before he's getting top recruits to consider UT again. I'm sure he'll snag a few guys looking for early playing time, or who in spite of being 4*, would still be 3rd man at a top school, but as we've seen with previous coaches, getting few 4* players and a bunch of 3* projects doesn't cut it in the SEC unless you can maximize the talent. He's going to have to win before he can make a serious run at top recruits.

That's been part of my formula too. And unlike some here, I do not believe he has 4 or 5 or more years to prove it. IMHO, more so than the last 3 guys, he has to show it in year ONE. I'm not saying a 9 win season or East championship. But 7 or 8 wins and being competitive in every game would "sell".

 

[onevol74]

That doesn't matter as much as you think if they can get the kid on campus and walk him through UT history and tradition. It is an education process but most kids are more impressed with a school that was EVER there than one that has never been relevant.


That's been part of my formula too. And unlike some here, I do not believe he has 4 or 5 or more years to prove it. IMHO, more so than the last 3 guys, he has to show it in year ONE. I'm not saying a 9 win season or East championship. But 7 or 8 wins and being competitive in every game would "sell".

Unless you find someone who wants to coach here and that seems to be a scarcity recently, he will get a minimum of 4-5 years.

 

[BeardedVol]

That doesn't matter as much as you think if they can get the kid on campus and walk him through UT history and tradition. It is an education process but most kids are more impressed with a school that was EVER there than one that has never been relevant.

If that were true schools like Tennessee, Nebraska, wouldn't struggle to much to get highly rated recruits in their down years, and schools like Oregon wouldn't be pulling in top recruits since they are recruiting heavily against a school like USC with their own "storied past".

It's only the fans that care about a school having a historical winning record back in the last century, and they only bring it up when their team hasn't won anything of note in over a decade.

Even with his garbage 2020 record, Pruitt would have gotten 5-6 years if he wasn't a moron who hired other morons who couldn't even cheat properly. Heupel is here for 5 years minimum, regardless of his record, and he knows it.

 

[Enki_Amenra]

That doesn't matter as much as you think if they can get the kid on campus and walk him through UT history and tradition. It is an education process but most kids are more impressed with a school that was EVER there than one that has never been relevant.


That's been part of my formula too. And unlike some here, I do not believe he has 4 or 5 or more years to prove it. IMHO, more so than the last 3 guys, he has to show it in year ONE. I'm not saying a 9 win season or East championship. But 7 or 8 wins and being competitive in every game would "sell".

You should read his contract. 5yrs is a virtual lock and 6yrs is most likely. Unless something really stupid happens, like NCAA violations, or going winless for 2 years. He's guaranteed an additional year, based on NCAA sanctions. That alone could take a couple years to develop.

 

[sjt18]

You should read his contract. 5yrs is a virtual lock and 6yrs is most likely. Unless something really stupid happens, like NCAA violations, or going winless for 2 years. He's guaranteed an additional year, based on NCAA sanctions. That alone could take a couple years to develop.

So you are saying that his contract precludes being fired with a buy out until he's coached 5 years?

Prove your point. Show the text proving that.

 

[sjt18]

If that were true schools like Tennessee, Nebraska, wouldn't struggle to much to get highly rated recruits in their down years, and schools like Oregon wouldn't be pulling in top recruits since they are recruiting heavily against a school like USC with their own "storied past".

It's only the fans that care about a school having a historical winning record back in the last century, and they only bring it up when their team hasn't won anything of note in over a decade.

.

I didn't say winning didn't carry more weight. I SPECIFICALLY said that recruits are more impressed with say UT than someone like Indiana or even UK because the Vols have "been there". Through the worst of this valley, UT has continued to be able to sell "we've been there and will be back" over programs that have never been there.