Kentucky

[BeardedVol]

I didn't say winning didn't carry more weight. I SPECIFICALLY said that recruits are more impressed with say UT than someone like Indiana or even UK because the Vols have "been there". Through the worst of this valley, UT has continued to be able to sell "we've been there and will be back" over programs that have never been there.

Neither Tom Allen nor Indiana as a school regularly send players to the NFL. Stoops has had two good years out of eight, in sending players to the NFL at Kentucky, 2019 and 2021; not to mention that there's rarely any overlap in UT and KY recruiting prospects.

We aren't talking about competing for 3*s that might have a shot at a draft invite, we're talking about 4/5* recruits that are near locks for the NFL draft as long as they get the proper college coaching, the ones that tip the scale in games against top teams. Those recruits don't care about a school having a storied history. They want to win, and they want to be coached by top coaches that are going to give them the best shot at getting drafted. You aren't landing those recruits by talking to them about UT's 1998 National Championship, or top 10 most winning programs in history, when we haven't sniffed the SECCG since 2007.

 

[Enki_Amenra]

So you are saying that his contract precludes being fired with a buy out until he's coached 5 years?

Prove your point. Show the text proving that.

No, but if you read it, you can tell it was designed for a minimum of 4yrs, before considering NCAA punishments. Based on certain parameters, he will be guaranteed an additional year - after the sanctions are levied. It could be multiple years before that happens. Barring some outrageous acts or unfathomable seasons, he'll be here 4 minimum, probably 5, and potentially 6 - based on sanctions.

 

[sjt18]

No, but if you read it, you can tell it was designed for a minimum of 4yrs, before considering NCAA punishments. Based on certain parameters, he will be guaranteed an additional year - after the sanctions are levied. It could be multiple years before that happens. Barring some outrageous acts or unfathomable seasons, he'll be here 4 minimum, probably 5, and potentially 6 - based on sanctions.

You are stating an opinion or interpretation as hard fact. If he isn't successful, White won't be able to keep him no matter how much he might want to. There is this romantic, unrealistic notion that giving a coach "more time" fixes things. It doesn't. It pretty much assures failure and that when he's eventually replaced... the next guy starts in an even deeper hole.

The only thing worse than making a bad hire... is keeping a bad hire and hoping they'll get better. Jones makes a textbook example.

 

[LittleVol]

Neither Tom Allen nor Indiana as a school regularly send players to the NFL. Stoops has had two good years out of eight, in sending players to the NFL at Kentucky, 2019 and 2021; not to mention that there's rarely any overlap in UT and KY recruiting prospects.

We aren't talking about competing for 3*s that might have a shot at a draft invite, we're talking about 4/5* recruits that are near locks for the NFL draft as long as they get the proper college coaching, the ones that tip the scale in games against top teams. Those recruits don't care about a school having a storied history. They want to win, and they want to be coached by top coaches that are going to give them the best shot at getting drafted. You aren't landing those recruits by talking to them about UT's 1998 National Championship, or top 10 most winning programs in history, when we haven't sniffed the SECCG since 2007.

Some solid points, but youre underselling the desire for a great college experience that a lot of these kids want while preparing for a potential NFL career.

 

[Enki_Amenra]

You are stating an opinion or interpretation as hard fact. If he isn't successful, White won't be able to keep him no matter how much he might want to. There is this romantic, unrealistic notion that giving a coach "more time" fixes things. It doesn't. It pretty much assures failure and that when he's eventually replaced... the next guy starts in an even deeper hole.

The only thing worse than making a bad hire... is keeping a bad hire and hoping they'll get better. Jones makes a textbook example.

What you're stating isn't opinion? Which is more likely, given current circumstances and contract language?

 

[Rooster1]

You are stating an opinion or interpretation as hard fact. If he isn't successful, White won't be able to keep him no matter how much he might want to. There is this romantic, unrealistic notion that giving a coach "more time" fixes things. It doesn't. It pretty much assures failure and that when he's eventually replaced... the next guy starts in an even deeper hole.

The only thing worse than making a bad hire... is keeping a bad hire and hoping they'll get better. Jones makes a textbook example.

There are some great examples of a coach needing 4+ years to show his value, Frank Beamer being an example. Not every coach fits the cookie cutter mold of “show us the money fast or else”.....

 

[Remy]

You are largely correct. Early on, a new coach sells this:

- the last guy was a bum (may not say it but will lead the recruit to that trough)
- we've done it before and have all the resources to do it again... and quickly
- we have a unique and great culture that will make you the best person and football player you can be
- you are a major piece of rising up
- you will have the opportunity to play and play early
- our facilities and S&C staff are among the best in sports
- we have the greatest player developers in college football (hyperbole)
- you will have a great opportunity to showcase your ability on television every game
- you will have an opportunity to play against the best and show the NFL how good you are
- WE ARE RIGHT AT THE THRESHOLD OF GREATNESS. We are on the rise. We just need you and a few guys like you and before you leave we will be competing with Bama.

I know they're selling that last one based on what multiple recruits have said in interviews.

Jones sold a version of this well... that wily old used car salesman. But if you don't win it doesn't work after year 2 or 3. Jones' recruiting fell off pretty sharply even after winning 9 games a couple of times. Recruits recognized... and rival recruiters reminded them constantly... that Jones' 9 win seasons should have been 10+ win seasons and weren't specifically because he isn't a very good coach.


Heupel or whoever finally pulls UT out of this funk will have to make recruits believe. They'll have to do things on the field that are universally recognized as overachievements. Strictly for recruiting purposes, I'm not sure Heupel wouldn't have more to sell if he goes 7-5 and keeps the UF/UGA/Bama losses within 10 points than if he goes 9-3 and gets blown out by those 3. One says, "We're this close". The other shouts that UT is nowhere close.

One says, "We're this close". The other shouts that UT is the same ole same ole.

 

[Remy]

You are stating an opinion or interpretation as hard fact. If he isn't successful, White won't be able to keep him no matter how much he might want to. There is this romantic, unrealistic notion that giving a coach "more time" fixes things. It doesn't. It pretty much assures failure and that when he's eventually replaced... the next guy starts in an even deeper hole.

The only thing worse than making a bad hire... is keeping a bad hire and hoping they'll get better. Jones makes a textbook example.

Amen bruddah! If there's one thing this fan base should have learned it should be the above IMO. It's why it's so disheartening to read comments "he gets X years guaranteed!" BS I used to respond to that nonsense after losing to Vandy 2 years in a row, you're signing up for year 3? 3 Vandy losses in a row, you signing up for #4? I no longer respond to that sort of nonsensical thinking. Heupel will either get it done or he won't. He won't get it done with a team full of 3 stars and walkons in a league full of 5 and 4 star players. I am saddened when I see we are now booming preferred walkons. Heupel like anybody will have to produce on the field and if he can't get it done with a competitive product from the jump he's got to go along with the AD if that's what it takes.

 

[norrislakevol]

Neither Tom Allen nor Indiana as a school regularly send players to the NFL. Stoops has had two good years out of eight, in sending players to the NFL at Kentucky, 2019 and 2021; not to mention that there's rarely any overlap in UT and KY recruiting prospects.

We aren't talking about competing for 3*s that might have a shot at a draft invite, we're talking about 4/5* recruits that are near locks for the NFL draft as long as they get the proper college coaching, the ones that tip the scale in games against top teams. Those recruits don't care about a school having a storied history. They want to win, and they want to be coached by top coaches that are going to give them the best shot at getting drafted. You aren't landing those recruits by talking to them about UT's 1998 National Championship, or top 10 most winning programs in history, when we haven't sniffed the SECCG since 2007.

You make some solid points, but I think that certain schools are just easier to recruit football prospects to than others. Tennessee is easier to recruit to than Kentucky, Arkansas, South Carolina, and Missouri for example, if all other things are equal. Certainly the schools that are currently winning a lot like Bama, LSU, Clemson, UGA, and Ohio State have by far the easiest recruiting jobs at the moment....and there is a reason why they are winning a lot. It's a vicious cycle.

 

[iluvsmesumdooley]

Thanks to Beldar Cornbread, we are even with UK at the moment. But while I think Heupel is kind of a “meh” hire, he should not have a problem elevating the program past those blue clowns.

 

[Johnnyreb#VFL]

Neither Tom Allen nor Indiana as a school regularly send players to the NFL. Stoops has had two good years out of eight, in sending players to the NFL at Kentucky, 2019 and 2021; not to mention that there's rarely any overlap in UT and KY recruiting prospects.

We aren't talking about competing for 3*s that might have a shot at a draft invite, we're talking about 4/5* recruits that are near locks for the NFL draft as long as they get the proper college coaching, the ones that tip the scale in games against top teams. Those recruits don't care about a school having a storied history. They want to win, and they want to be coached by top coaches that are going to give them the best shot at getting drafted. You aren't landing those recruits by talking to them about UT's 1998 National Championship, or top 10 most winning programs in history, when we haven't sniffed the SECCG since 2007.

According to you, winning now is all that matters. WE CURRENTLY DON’T HAVE THAT. So what else are recruiters supposed to sell? What would be your pitch to get some of these 4/5 star recruits to UT TODAY?

 

[sjt18]

There are some great examples of a coach needing 4+ years to show his value, Frank Beamer being an example. Not every coach fits the cookie cutter mold of “show us the money fast or else”.....

Besides Beamer can you name another in the last 30 years?

 

[unfrozencvmanvol]

Not to jump in you guys debate, but Dabo probably would have been fired at Tennessee because it took him 4 years to show promise in the ACC. It would have probably took 7 to make the same strides in our league, and you never get that long, especially not here.

 

[BeardedVol]

Not to jump in you guys debate, but Dabo probably would have been fired at Tennessee because it took him 4 years to show promise in the ACC. It would have probably took 7 to make the same strides in our league, and you never get that long, especially not here.

4 years to "show promise in the ACC"?

Clemson played for the ACC title in Dabo's second year, and won the ACC title in his third.

So which one or our coaching hires should have been given more time to "show promise", Dooley, Butch, Pruitt?

 

[TNHopeful505]

Kentucky is not a better program, BUT they have had stability and a coach who can develop talent, something we have not known about in over a decade. When clicking on all cylinders, Kentucky will never be better than third in the east. When clicking on all cylinders, Tennessee can be National Champs. Where the programs are right now is not indicative of where they have been or where they traditionally are. UT's "baseline" and UK's "baseline" are VERY different. We are running low, while they are running high.

However, we could learn from them in the value of stability, and I HOPE that Heupel is a great developer of talent and that he sticks around for a long time.

 

[de1conley]

Has Kentucky now passed us in football? I think it’s a legitimate question to ask at the moment. They have a more stable program and coach and are now recruiting better. They have made 5 straight bowl appearances and have a 2-2 record against us since 2017 along with blowing us out in Neyland last season 34-7. They will also be probaly favored in this years game in Lexington. What are y’all’s thoughts is Kentucky a more attractive football program now and going forward?

yes the reason being they have more stability in the fact that their coach is a known commodity and has relationships with kids. The second thing is that they have been winning and proving they can produce guys to the next level. So kids pay attention to those types of things. Last don’t forget the unknown of the investigation which further sets boundaries for kids not knowing what’s going to happen.

 

[de1conley]

4 years to "show promise in the ACC"?

Clemson played for the ACC title in Dabo's second year, and won the ACC title in his third.

So which one or our coaching hires should have been given more time to "show promise", Dooley, Butch, Pruitt?

the ACC is a joke and always a one trick pony. As much as I hate Botch I think he can win in the ACC.

 

[BeardedVol]

the ACC is a joke and always a one trick pony. As much as I hate Botch I think he can win in the ACC.

mcubed.net : NCAA Football : Conference Series Records : SEC vs. ACC

Whether it is a joke or not (it's not), is irrelevant as to whether or not Dabo 'showed promise' in the conference prior to year 4, which he did, by winning the ACC in year three.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

anyone that says a team wins because the 5* are better gets ignored by me. The 5* bring the gift givers, and the tv contracts. it brings the money. fools throw money at "sure things". it's a feedback loop at that point for ratings. stars are bought and sold on an open market in a BILLION dollar industry, and EVERYONE just wants to win, and EVERYONE gets paid.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

Let me log into my computer for this ish. UCF were undefeated.... in FLORIDA, Where all these 5 stars come from, without 5 stars. College ball is now PROFESSIONAL. It's a PRO SPORT. if you want amatuer, head on down to highschool, because that's where it can still be found for now...until ESPN changes that too, and they will if they get a chance... in heart beat. ESPN OWNS college ball, and they do NOT care who, what, where, when, or how you are... unless you are willing to pay. End of story.

 

[BeardedVol]

Let me log into my computer for this ish. UCF were undefeated.... in FLORIDA, Where all these 5 stars come from, without 5 stars. College ball is now PROFESSIONAL. It's a PRO SPORT. if you want amatuer, head on down to highschool, because that's where it can still be found for now...until ESPN changes that too, and they will if they get a chance... in heart beat. ESPN OWNS college ball, and they do NOT care who, what, where, when, or how you are... unless you are willing to pay. End of story.

UCF only played 5 teams that ended the season with a winning record in that undefeated regular season, and their schedule as a whole was absolute garbage.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

see you when you QB for us against PITT.

 

[onevol74]

UCF only played 5 teams that ended the season with a winning record in that undefeated regular season, and their schedule as a whole was absolute garbage.

They, like any other team, do not get to pick the opponents' records each year. UT won the SEC when most of the other teams were down. Beating your competition is the only thing you can control.

 

[BeardedVol]

They, like any other team, do not get to pick the opponents' records each year. UT won the SEC when most of the other teams were down. Beating your competition is the only thing you can control.

Doesn't change the fact that it was still a weak schedule, and is pretty much every year for UCF.

You don't need a team chocked full of 5*s to have success with a schedule like that.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

the ACC is a joke and always a one trick pony. As much as I hate Botch I think he can win in the ACC.

Good lord this gets tiring. Someone uses Dabo, then after it's pointed out he won his division his 1st full year then it's "The ACC Sucks!". Then people need to stop bringing him up.