Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson are CLEARLY the 2 best QBs in the 2018 NFL Draft

[VolsSportsFan]

It'll happen at some point. Just don't know when. Last year was a golden chance. Unfortunately Foles got hurt in Week 1 and Dobbs was traded to Jacksonville. If Foles stays healthy last year then Dobbs legend would have already started.

But remember, D4H says he can't predict the future.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

But all of this is digressing from the fact that you haven't even begun to formulate a coherent argument as to why not one team has wanted to watch Kaaya throw.

I've already answered this a hundred times. Its what I've been saying this entire thread. His spinal injury must have been serious enough that nobody (other than the Bengals for one month) wants to touch it. Just because he may have been medically cleared in 6 months doesn't mean the injury wasn't absolutely devastating.

I hate to bring this up because it just happened but look at Dak's injury from yesterday. Absolutely gruesome and devastating. ESPN is reporting that the recovery period for this type of compound ankle fracture is 4-6 months. Note this injury has a shorter recovery period than ACL tears as well (mainly because bones heal faster than ligaments). But look at how everyone is talking about it compared to if Dak had just torn his ACL and was out for 9 months. Folks are wondering if Dak will even be on the Cowboys next year. Despite a shorter recovery period, Dak's ankle injury is far more serious to his future as a football player than an ACL tear would have been despite the longer recovery period.

Just because bones heal faster than ligaments doesn't mean spinal surgery is less devastating than an ACL tear.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

But remember, D4H says he can't predict the future.

I can't predict exactly when someone will die but I know at some point they will because no one is immortal.

Same point applies here. Don't know exactly when Dobbs will blow up, however, it will happen at some point. Why? Because he's destined for greatness. Its inevitable.

 

[butchna]

He goes in a circle and waits for you to get tired.

 

[bamawriter]

I've already answered this a hundred times. Its what I've been saying this entire thread. His spinal injury must have been serious enough that nobody (other than the Bengals for one month) wants to touch it. Just because he may have been medically cleared in 6 months doesn't mean the injury wasn't absolutely devastating.

Answer this one question:

How would a team determine if the injury was absolutely devastating?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Answer this one question:

How would a team determine if the injury was absolutely devastating?

Its spinal surgery genius. Even someone with no medical education would know that is extremely serious. The surgery alone is enough to take his name off the board for many teams.

Once again look at the Dak situation. His contract demands have been critically damaged by this injury regardless of what the medical says in 4-6 months when he is supposed to be healthy. Every GM saw how his leg snapped. That image alone tanked his value cause teams know how devastating that injury could be for his career. The words "spinal surgery" have the same effect.

 

[bamawriter]

Its spinal surgery genius. Even someone with no medical education would know that is extremely serious. The surgery alone is enough to take his name off the board for many teams.

Many teams, or every team? Because we're dealing with the latter.

Once again look at the Dak situation. His contract demands have been critically damaged by this injury regardless of what the medical says in 4-6 months when he is supposed to be healthy. Every GM saw how his leg snapped. That image alone tanked his value cause teams know how devastating that injury could be for his career. The words "spinal surgery" have the same effect.

None of what you wrote qualifies as the slightest attempt to answer my question, so I'll ask it again:

How would a team go about trying to determine if an injury is devastating?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Many teams, or every team? Because we're dealing with the latter.

He was a 6th round pick who bounced around on practice squads during his only healthy season as a rookie. That alone shows he already had very low interest around the league based on their PERCEPTION of his ability. The injury probably took out the few remaining teams still interested in him. And FTR just a team's perception of a player's ability isn't always a fact. See the repeated examples I have cited of players making it big after being cut or drafted low.

None of what you wrote qualifies as the slightest attempt to answer my question

Actually it does. You're just ignoring it because it destroys your earlier point about Kaaya's potential recovery after 6 months from spinal surgery proving it wasn't even as serious as an ACL tear that takes 9 months. You have spent this entire time trying to downgrade the seriousness of his injury. Now we have Dak nearly snapping his ankle off his leg and the timeline for his recovery is 4-6 months. Is it your position now that Dak's injury isn't as serious as an ACL tear because he'll presumably be declared healthy in as little as 4 months? Or could it be that bones heal faster than ligaments and how long it takes to recover from an injury doesn't correlate to severity at all times?

Spinal surgery is always serious despite how hard you have tried to act like it isn't.

 

[bamawriter]

He was a 6th round pick who bounced around on practice squads during his only healthy season as a rookie. That alone shows he already had very low interest around the league based on their PERCEPTION of his ability.

You don't say?

The injury probably took out the few remaining teams still interested in him.

So, you're now walking back all those posts wherein you argued with me when I said that no one wanted to work him out because they think he sucks.

Actually it does. You're just ignoring it because it destroys your earlier point about Kaaya's potential recovery after 6 months from spinal surgery proving it wasn't even as serious as an ACL tear that takes 9 months. You have spent this entire time trying to downgrade the seriousness of his injury.

And how does it "destroy" that argument exactly? I have yet to write a single word on whether or not his back injury affected his game. My point is that no one seems all that interested in finding out. You're the only person in this conversation who is making any kind of argument as to the lingering effects of his injury.

You keep using Prescott's recent injury as a reference point, but a better example would be Alex Smith. Smith's injury and the subsequent issues were awful. He had 17 surgeries. His doctors advised amputating his leg. There were questions about his ability to ever walk properly, let alone ever play football. Smith refused to retire, but (as you've argued) there were myriad reasons for NFL teams to stay as far away as possible. But they didn't. The Football Team [sigh] worked him out and gave him a roster spot? Why? Because Smith was a legit football player before he ever got hurt. No matter the severity of his injury, Kaaya can't get a look because there are 32 NFL teams who think he sucks.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

So, you're now walking back all those posts wherein you argued with me when I said that no one wanted to work him out because they think he sucks.

No. You were saying that the ONLY reason he wasn't signed was because they thought he sucked. I was only arguing that the injury was also a factor. I never denied some teams didn't think he was good enough based on talent to be on their roster. Why do you think I keep mentioning that article with all those Hall of Fame players that were cut?

And how does it "destroy" that argument exactly? I have yet to write a single word on whether or not his back injury affected his game. My point is that no one seems all that interested in finding out. You're the only person in this conversation who is making any kind of argument as to the lingering effects of his injury.

It destroys your argument because you cited the longer recovery period for an ACL tear over spinal surgery to support your contention that Kaaya's injury wasn't that big of a deal. Dak just snapped his ankle and could be declared fit in as little as 4 months and yet the perception around his future contract is very bleak. Length of recovery isn't always correlated to the severity of the injury. Thus you were wrong to imply Kaaya's spinal surgery wasn't as serious as an ACL because of the shorter recovery period.

And what the hell is this "finding out" you keep talking about? He had spinal surgery. If we know that then they know it too. If you have two players you are considering that are close in grade and one has a complete bill of health while the other just had spinal surgery, which one are you gonna sign? The teams don't need a full breakdown of his medical to be turned off. Just knowing he got hurt is enough.

You keep using Prescott's recent injury as a reference point, but a better example would be Alex Smith. Smith's injury and the subsequent issues were awful.

No. Because Alex Smith was already under contract and wasn't a pending free agent like Dak. If Kaaya had been a 1st round pick with a huge guarantee in his contract then Alex Smith might be relevant. But he was a 6th round free agent. Dak is similarly a free agent next year. I'm comparing them to show how a devastating injury can affect the perception of a player that is no longer under contract.

 

[bamawriter]

No. You were saying that the ONLY reason he wasn't signed was because they thought he sucked. I was only arguing that the injury was also a factor. I never denied some teams didn't think he was good enough based on talent to be on their roster. Why do you think I keep mentioning that article with all those Hall of Fame players that were cut?

Okay. So some teams think he sucked, some think he might have been a little better than "suck", and none thought he was worth even giving a workout to find out if he could still play.
You want to argue with any of that?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Okay. So some teams think he sucked, some think he might have been a little better than "suck", and none thought he was worth even giving a workout to find out if he could still play.
You want to argue with any of that?

Yes. The spinal injury was the overriding factor for some teams in why he was not signed. If he never got hurt some team would probably have signed him to their practice squad. Just as the Cowboys would have probably offerred Dak a monster long-term contract this off-season if not for his devastating leg injury this weekend. The injury to Dak will play an overriding factor in his contract negotiations this off-season just as Kaaya's spinal surgery played an overriding factor in why he only spent 12 months in the NFL.

 

[bamawriter]

Yes. The spinal injury was the overriding factor for some teams in why he was not signed.

So, after having Kaaya in your mock Top 10, declaring him better than Mahomes and Watson, calling him a "surefire franchise QB," calling him "the prototypical NFL pocket passer," calling him a "potential STAR," calling him a "Pro Bowl talent," and calling him "maybe the biggest steal in this draft," all you can come up with now is if he hadn't got hurt some team would probably sign him to their practice squad.

 

[butchna]

Allen not looking so...superstarry?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

So, after having Kaaya in your mock Top 10, declaring him better than Mahomes and Watson, calling him a "surefire franchise QB," calling him "the prototypical NFL pocket passer," calling him a "potential STAR," calling him a "Pro Bowl talent," and calling him "maybe the biggest steal in this draft," all you can come up with now is if he hadn't got hurt some team would probably sign him to their practice squad.

Why are you switching up the focus what we've been debating? We have been going back and forth for a few pages now about whether his spinal injury affected his career. I claim its the main reason he isn't on a roster right now. You have been trying to diminish its significance and claiming his lack of talent is the sole reason nobody has interest in signing him. You LIED at one point claiming he was healthy enough to "workout" with the Bengals. When that lie was exposed you walked it back and then tried to argue his spinal injury wasn't that significant because he was presumably cleared medically after 6 months and ACL tears take 9 months of recovery. So obviously if the recovery time for his spinal surgery was shorter than an ACL tear (which we see athletes recover from all the time) then it must not have been that serious. I once again owned you on that point by citing the fact that simply because bones heal after than ligaments that doesn't make the injury less severe. To support that point I cited the absolutely devastating leg injury Dak Prescott had this past weekend which ESPN has reported has a 4-6 month recovery period. You have totally ignored this point letting me and anyone else reading this thread know you have lost on this point of contention as well.

Now after I have totally discarded every attempt you have made thus far to try and diminish the severity of Kaaya's back injury you switch things up to now making it into an argument over my evaluation of Kaaya vis-a-vis the results thus far of his career. Guess when you keep getting owned in debate you have no choice but to keep changing the focus of the debate.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Allen not looking so...superstarry?

He had a bad game. It happens to everyone. Now if you wanna get on the record saying the first 4 weeks were fool's gold and today is the real Josh Allen then go right ahead. I dare you to say he's not a great QB. Please go on the record betting against him.

 

[95 Vol Alum]

Allen not looking so...superstarry?

Mayfield 3-1

 

[butchna]

He had a bad game. It happens to everyone. Now if you wanna get on the record saying the first 4 weeks were fool's gold and today is the real Josh Allen then go right ahead. I dare you to say he's not a great QB. Please go on the record betting against him.

He’s not a great QB. May turn into one. At this stage he’s Jared Goff...another one of your favorites.

 

[bamawriter]

Why are you switching up the focus what we've been debating? We have been going back and forth for a few pages now about whether his spinal injury affected his career.

No, at this point you're just debating yourself.

Brad Kaaya is awesome

BUT

He couldn't get on the field

BUT

He would have shown how awesome he is

BUT

He had spinal surgery

BUT

If he hadn't had spinal surgery he'd have made a practice squad

BUT

He's awesome so he would have eventually shown out

BUT

Teams are scared away by his injury

BUT

I don't know the exact nature of the injury

BUT

I know that any spinal injury could be career-ending

BUT

Kaaya passed a physical and the Bengals claimed him

BUT

There's no way they actually gave him a workout because if they'd givem him a workout there's no way he would have been cut because he's awesome

BUT

No other team has given him a workout

BUT

That's only because they are scared off from the spinal injury

BUT

There's really no reason a team couldn't work a guy out just to see if the injury affected him because that's how a team would go about determining if he could still go after the injury

BUT

Despite that, it's not that no team thinks he's worth giving the kind of workout they do dozens of times every year

BUT

It's not that they think he's simply not good, it's because they're scared of the injury

BUT

No one really want to find out about the effects of the injury to this "Pro Bowl talent"

BUT

I have multiple personalities arguing with one another

BUT

No we don't. Shut up Carl!

BUT

Carl's not really a bad guy.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

He’s not a great QB. May turn into one.

Stop with the waffling. I actually take a solid stance on players which is why threads like this one are so popular. Don't give me these caveats. Be declarative.

Is Josh Allen a great QB or not? Simple yes or no.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

No, at this point you're just debating yourself.

Brad Kaaya is awesome

BUT

He couldn't get on the field

BUT

He would have shown how awesome he is

BUT

He had spinal surgery

BUT

If he hadn't had spinal surgery he'd have made a practice squad

BUT

He's awesome so he would have eventually shown out

BUT

Teams are scared away by his injury

BUT

I don't know the exact nature of the injury

BUT

I know that any spinal injury could be career-ending

BUT

Kaaya passed a physical and the Bengals claimed him

BUT

There's no way they actually gave him a workout because if they'd givem him a workout there's no way he would have been cut because he's awesome

BUT

No other team has given him a workout

BUT

That's only because they are scared off from the spinal injury

BUT

There's really no reason a team couldn't work a guy out just to see if the injury affected him because that's how a team would go about determining if he could still go after the injury

BUT

Despite that, it's not that no team thinks he's worth giving the kind of workout they do dozens of times every year

BUT

It's not that they think he's simply not good, it's because they're scared of the injury

BUT

No one really want to find out about the effects of the injury to this "Pro Bowl talent"

BUT

I have multiple personalities arguing with one another

BUT

No we don't. Shut up Carl!

BUT

Carl's not really a bad guy.

So instead of responding to the points I raised in my post you write this rambling mess. FYI I didn't waste my time even reading it. Aren't you supposed to be a journalist? Next time write in paragraphs with structure so that I can actually read what you are trying to say.

Once again I will repeat myself. When someone is losing a debate, they do what you have been doing over the last few pages. You've constantly changed the focus of our debate. You've totally ignored several counter-arguments to your points. And finally you write this silly post without any sensible structure.

 

[butchna]

Stop with the waffling. I actually take a solid stance on players which is why threads like this one are so popular. Don't give me these caveats. Be declarative.

Is Josh Allen a great QB or not? Simple yes or no.

It’s not waffling. It’s admitting you don’t KNOW the future. And you’re not popular and your threads suck. But people like ******* with you and your clown schtick... that DECLARATIVE enough? He’s a good, promising QB. He’s nowhere close to GREAT status.

 

[butchna]

So instead of responding to the points I raised in my post you write this rambling mess. FYI I didn't waste my time even reading it. Aren't you supposed to be a journalist? Next time write in paragraphs with structure so that I can actually read what you are trying to say.

Once again I will repeat myself. When someone is losing a debate, they do what you have been doing over the last few pages. You've constantly changed the focus of our debate. You've totally ignored several counter-arguments to your points. And finally you write this silly post without any sensible structure.

You drive in a circle. Deep down you know you’re full of ****.

 

[bamawriter]

So instead of responding to the points I raised in my post you write this rambling mess. FYI I didn't waste my time even reading it. Aren't you supposed to be a journalist? Next time write in paragraphs with structure so that I can actually read what you are trying to say.

Once again I will repeat myself. When someone is losing a debate, they do what you have been doing over the last few pages. You've constantly changed the focus of our debate. You've totally ignored several counter-arguments to your points. And finally you write this silly post without any sensible structure.

There's really no point, because your argument contradicts itself.

 

[n_huffhines]

Stop with the waffling. I actually take a solid stance on players which is why threads like this one are so popular. Don't give me these caveats. Be declarative.

Is Josh Allen a great QB or not? Simple yes or no.

Great? I wouldn't call him great yet. He looks really good, but we've seen young QB's have longer runs than this and flame out.

I was high on Allen with the eye test, but his accuracy numbers really soured me on him. Despite his recent success, his career completion % is still below 59%. I need to see him do it longer, but he's always certainly looked the part. Great QB's beat Belichick and he's averaging 13 ppg against New England. Let's see him do a little better than that before we call him "great".