Jalen Hurd will be a SUPERSTAR in the NFL

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

They couldn't be more wrong about that comparison, so who gives a ****?

Bell had nearly the same amount of receptions in his first year than LG had in his entire career...

All I'm saying is Le'Veon ain't an elite athlete. I agree that he's far better than the Blount comparison. However, he's not an elite athlete at the position like Mixon, Gurley, and Saquon.

 

[NashVol11]

No. His patient style works because of his elite instincts and vision. His acceleration is mediocre. If he had elite acceleration, he wouldn't need to have that patient running style. He would just see the hole then explode right through it. Le'Veon runs the way he does because he lacks elite athleticism.

Once again you can't dismiss the combine results when talking about who is a freak athlete and who isn't. Freak athletes at the RB position simply don't run 4.60 in the 40 or have a vertical jump of only 31.5 inches. Le'Veon Bell didn't fall to the mid-2nd round in a weak draft for no reason in 2013. He fell that far because people had concerns about his athleticism. He was viewed as a bruising RB coming out of college. In fact his comparison on NFL.com was to LeGarrett Blount. And I doubt you would call LeGarrett Blount a freak athlete.

Lol. You can’t afford to just stop behind the line of scrimmage if it takes a long time for you to get back up to speed. You’d just get tackled in the backfield, over and over. This isn’t complicated, and neither is the idea that 40 times in shorts from a track stance are far from a perfect measure of speed and acceleration on a football field.

Bell also has been in much better shape from Year 2 of his career on than he was in college/the combine/as a rookie.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Lol. You can’t afford to just stop behind the line of scrimmage if it takes a long time for you to get back up to speed. You’d just get tackled in the backfield, over and over. This isn’t complicated, and neither is the idea that 40 times in shorts from a track stance are far from a perfect measure of speed and acceleration on a football field.

Bell also has been in much better shape from Year 2 of his career on than he was in college/the combine/as a rookie.

You're getting way to hung up on his unusual running style and trying to correlate it with elite athleticism when its not. A good comp for this in another sport would be James Harden. He's currently destroying the NBA. Nobody can stop his offensive moves. And yet nobody would ever confuse him with being an elite athlete like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. Sure he's scoring like they used to but he's not as explosive or athletic as they were. In fact one could argue James Harden isn't even a good athlete by NBA standards let alone elite. And yet he's wildly successful. He's been able to do that by perfecting a style that allows him to succeed despite not being a great athlete. Le'Veon is no different. He came into the NFL as a mediocre athlete at the RB position. What he did was find a style that was unique to him and made it wildly effective. However, that doesn't make him an elite athlete. Sure it made him an elite player but that's different from being an elite athlete.

Elite athletes are those who can run faster and jump higher than most of their peers. Its a unique group even within the class of athletes that are able to make it in professional sports. Sure compared to the wider world Le'Veon is a freak athlete. But in the NFL he's nothing extraordinary. There are many players with his physical gifts. He's just been able to be better than them because of his unique style and elite instincts for the RB position.

 

[superdave1984]

All I'm saying is Le'Veon ain't an elite athlete. I agree that he's far better than the Blount comparison. However, he's not an elite athlete at the position like Mixon, Gurley, and Saquon.

Emmitt Smith ran a 4.7 at the combine back in 1990. He wasn't an elite athlete, but he was a fantastic running back. I would rather have a great football player over a great athlete. Peyton Manning wasn't a great athlete, neither is Tom Brady or Phillip Rivers. You don't have to be a great athlete to have great success.

Let's talk about Mike Mamula, or Blair Thomas, or Akili Smith, or RG3....the list is endless. Great athletes don't always translate into NFL success.

 

[TDawg]

Emmitt Smith ran a 4.7 at the combine back in 1990. He wasn't an elite athlete, but he was a fantastic running back. I would rather have a great football player over a great athlete. Peyton Manning wasn't a great athlete, neither is Tom Brady or Phillip Rivers. You don't have to be a great athlete to have great success.

Let's talk about Mike Mamula, or Blair Thomas, or Akili Smith, or RG3....the list is endless. Great athletes don't always translate into NFL success.

Truest statement in this thread right here .. the list of great athletes that failed is FAR GREATER than the list of those who made it. Remember when Al Davis would just draft the fastest receiver in the draft? Yet, Jerry Rice comes over and is still better than Darrius Heyward-Bey or whoever else they would pick. Rice's 40 time was often disputed but few have evidence of it being any better than 4.59 and most still believe that it was more like a 4.7. Pedestrian by Heyward-Bey standards but the guy was the greatest football player of all time. Jarvis Landry ran a damn slow 40 in the combine but is a damn good WR. In fact, I would bet of the RBs who are in the top 25 all time, most were not considered "great athletes" coming out of the combine. Which leads me to this .. does 40 times and high jumps and broad jumps determine the best athletes or those who actually succeeded at the highest level in a chosen athletic sport?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Emmitt Smith ran a 4.7 at the combine back in 1990. He wasn't an elite athlete, but he was a fantastic running back. I would rather have a great football player over a great athlete. Peyton Manning wasn't a great athlete, neither is Tom Brady or Phillip Rivers. You don't have to be a great athlete to have great success.

Let's talk about Mike Mamula, or Blair Thomas, or Akili Smith, or RG3....the list is endless. Great athletes don't always translate into NFL success.

I agree. Pure athleticism at the RB position is overrated. Instincts and vision are far more important. However, once you add elite athleticism with elite instincts and vision then you get a once in a generation type of player.

Emmitt Smith for all his ndividual and team success was not a better RB than Barry Sanders because he was not as athletic. At the end of the day, elite athleticism serves as the tie-breaker in separating guys at that sort of level.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Tony Mandarich; outstanding athletic offensive lineman and now considered one of the biggest busts in the NFL.

 

[TDawg]

I agree. Pure athleticism at the RB position is overrated. Instincts and vision are far more important. However, once you add elite athleticism with elite instincts and vision then you get a once in a generation type of player.

Emmitt Smith for all his ndividual and team success was not a better RB than Barry Sanders because he was not as athletic. At the end of the day, elite athleticism serves as the tie-breaker in separating guys at that sort of level.

I can agree with this, although I think Barry's athleticism is more seen in his twitchiness and cuts than things like a 40 time and jump ability. Both had incredible vision but to your point, Emmitt had one of the best OLs in history. Barry had some of the coolest 2 yard runs ever just watching him escape being caught up in the backfield. Neither were elite athletes based on the measurables though. One was just better than the other.

 

[superdave1984]

I agree. Pure athleticism at the RB position is overrated. Instincts and vision are far more important. However, once you add elite athleticism with elite instincts and vision then you get a once in a generation type of player.

Emmitt Smith for all his ndividual and team success was not a better RB than Barry Sanders because he was not as athletic. At the end of the day, elite athleticism serves as the tie-breaker in separating guys at that sort of level.

Darren McFadden would agree with you.

 

[NashVol11]

You're getting way to hung up on his unusual running style and trying to correlate it with elite athleticism when its not. A good comp for this in another sport would be James Harden. He's currently destroying the NBA. Nobody can stop his offensive moves. And yet nobody would ever confuse him with being an elite athlete like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. Sure he's scoring like they used to but he's not as explosive or athletic as they were. In fact one could argue James Harden isn't even a good athlete by NBA standards let alone elite. And yet he's wildly successful. He's been able to do that by perfecting a style that allows him to succeed despite not being a great athlete. Le'Veon is no different. He came into the NFL as a mediocre athlete at the RB position. What he did was find a style that was unique to him and made it wildly effective. However, that doesn't make him an elite athlete. Sure it made him an elite player but that's different from being an elite athlete.

Elite athletes are those who can run faster and jump higher than most of their peers. Its a unique group even within the class of athletes that are able to make it in professional sports. Sure compared to the wider world Le'Veon is a freak athlete. But in the NFL he's nothing extraordinary. There are many players with his physical gifts. He's just been able to be better than them because of his unique style and elite instincts for the RB position.

His entire style is based on elite acceleration and short-area quickness. Without those things, none of the rest works. Period.

He also lost like 10-15 pounds between running that 40 and later becoming a superstar, as mentioned previously.

 

[NashVol11]

I can agree with this, although I think Barry's athleticism is more seen in his twitchiness and cuts than things like a 40 time and jump ability. Both had incredible vision but to your point, Emmitt had one of the best OLs in history. Barry had some of the coolest 2 yard runs ever just watching him escape being caught up in the backfield. Neither were elite athletes based on the measurables though. One was just better than the other.

You mean size + 40 time isn’t the end-all and be-all of athleticism?! Crazy talk.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I can agree with this, although I think Barry's athleticism is more seen in his twitchiness and cuts than things like a 40 time and jump ability. Both had incredible vision but to your point, Emmitt had one of the best OLs in history. Barry had some of the coolest 2 yard runs ever just watching him escape being caught up in the backfield. Neither were elite athletes based on the measurables though. One was just better than the other.

True. I never said RB athleticism was just about straight line speed or the vertical jump. Its just that the 40 and vertical jump typically correlates with overall athleticism. Sure there are a few aberrations every now and then who have bad 40 times or low verts but nonetheless have incredible twitchiness and cutting ability. But in most cases if a guy is as freaky athletically on the field as Barry Sanders, his 40 and vertical jump numbers typically correlate. See Saquon Barkley. He's probably the closest we've seen to Barry Sanders in terms of overall twitchiness and cutting ability. He runs a 4.4 40 and jumps 40 inches. Alvin Kamara's 40 wasn't fast (mid-4.5s) but he jumped over 40 inches on the vert. So that measurement right there gave us a clue into his overall athleticism despite the mediocre 40 time.

If you're running the 40 in the 4.6s and your vertical jump is barely over 30 inches, there's a high likelihood you will not be very twitchy on the field.

 

[NashVol11]

Lol. Basically word for word what I've been saying.

"He always had such great patience but then very good explosion," says Brad Salem, Bell’s running backs coach with the Spartans. "Obviously, I think that changed and grew from year to year."

"He has the unique ability to go from zero to 30 and 40 in no time," Faulk says. "So if he’s being patient and then you’re patient, he takes off running and hits the hole, and you’re like, ‘Oh ****, he went through already.’"

At Michigan State, Salem noticed how Bell could power down, change direction, and start moving again with a single step — where it might take other backs two or three to just slow their momentum. Jones-Drew points to how Bell’s decision to drop from 244 to 225 pounds when transitioning from college to the NFL made his single-cut acceleration even more lethal.

And a bonus on receiving ability:

Tomlinson is one of the best pass-catching backs of all time (only Larry Centers and Faulk have more career receptions). Still, when he watches Bell, he’s in awe just like the rest of us.

"If he needed to play wide receiver, he could do it," Tomlinson says. "I could never play the wide receiver position the entire season. I couldn’t do that. I was a runner who could also catch the ball out of the backfield. He’s a runner that can also play wide receiver."

Le’Veon Bell Is Leading a Running Back Revolution

 

[hndog609]

I can agree with this, although I think Barry's athleticism is more seen in his twitchiness and cuts than things like a 40 time and jump ability. Both had incredible vision but to your point, Emmitt had one of the best OLs in history. Barry had some of the coolest 2 yard runs ever just watching him escape being caught up in the backfield. Neither were elite athletes based on the measurables though. One was just better than the other.

I think you're selling Sanders athleticism short.

• As Sanders, all of 5-8, walked onto the field for his workout, he stopped underneath the goal post, jumped, grabbed the cross bar, and did a one-handed chin-up.

• Sanders' vertical leap measured 40.5 inches. He wasn't satisfied, so he tried again, and improved to 41.5 inches.

• Sanders ran the 40-yard dash twice and he was timed at 4.39 and 4.43.

Matt Millen's bumbling and the 0-16 Lions can't overshadow Barry Sanders' greatness

 

[hndog609]

Elite athletes are those who can run faster and jump higher than most of their peers. Its a unique group even within the class of athletes that are able to make it in professional sports. Sure compared to the wider world Le'Veon is a freak athlete. But in the NFL he's nothing extraordinary. There are many players with his physical gifts. He's just been able to be better than them because of his unique style and elite instincts for the RB position.

Being contextually elite matters. Do I think Bell is a freak athlete in the across the board sense? No. However for what his running style is he has some very good tools. Did you know Bell's 10y split (at 6'1"/230) was a whole .02 behind Kamara's and faster than Ezekial Elliott's? Did you know the only RB with a faster 3 Cone* going back to at least 2015 is Christian McCaffrey? In fact since 2015 only 9 safeties have timed better. I'll agree ALL Bell's measurables are not jaw dropping but he makes do by exploiting those areas where he is, in fact, very good.

*Not everyone participates in the 3 cone but there's no getting around Bell's 6.75 being exceptional.

 

[TDawg]

I think you're selling Sanders athleticism short.

• As Sanders, all of 5-8, walked onto the field for his workout, he stopped underneath the goal post, jumped, grabbed the cross bar, and did a one-handed chin-up.

• Sanders' vertical leap measured 40.5 inches. He wasn't satisfied, so he tried again, and improved to 41.5 inches.

• Sanders ran the 40-yard dash twice and he was timed at 4.39 and 4.43.

Matt Millen's bumbling and the 0-16 Lions can't overshadow Barry Sanders' greatness

My bad, got his 40 mixed with someone else's I guess. but combine showed 4.37. What really made him great is quickness through the hole .. that is, when he had one

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Being contextually elite matters. Do I think Bell is a freak athlete in the across the board sense? No. However for what his running style is he has some very good tools. Did you know Bell's 10y split (at 6'1"/230) was a whole .02 behind Kamara's and faster than Ezekial Elliott's? Did you know the only RB with a faster 3 Cone* going back to at least 2015 is Christian McCaffrey? In fact since 2015 only 9 safeties have timed better. I'll agree ALL Bell's measurables are not jaw dropping but he makes do by exploiting those areas where he is, in fact, very good.

*Not everyone participates in the 3 cone but there's no getting around Bell's 6.75 being exceptional.

You do know Josh Dobbs also had a 6.75 cone drill as well? Dobbs is a freak athlete for the QB position. But not when compared to all other NFL players.

I never said Le'Veon was a poor athlete. All I said was he isn't a FREAK athlete like Saquon Barkley, Todd Gurley, and Joe Mixon. As much as I love Alvin Kamara, you'll I didn't include him in the freak athlete category.

 

[hndog609]

My bad, got his 40 mixed with someone else's I guess. but combine showed 4.37. What really made him great is quickness through the hole .. that is, when he had one

He was great everywhere. Quickness to the hole, through the hole and elusiveness everywhere thereafter, including long speed. (granted wasn't one of the purest burners in the latter but he was demonstrably not lacking in the speed to dial long distance regularly) If you told me for whatever reason I was required to sit and watch all the highlights of one player just for pure entertainment it'd be Sanders.

 

[hndog609]

You do know Josh Dobbs also had a 6.75 cone drill as well? Dobbs is a freak athlete for the QB position. But not when compared to all other NFL players.

I never said Le'Veon was a poor athlete. All I said was he isn't a FREAK athlete like Saquon Barkley, Todd Gurley, and Joe Mixon. As much as I love Alvin Kamara, you'll I didn't include him in the freak athlete category.

First a 6.75 3 Cone is an attention getter. Over the last 5 combines that time would have finished no lower than 9th and as high as 4th among WR. And what people are arguing about bell is that his success (and he's had a lot of it) is predicated on abilities that ARE pretty special, including some athletic ones. He's playing to his strengths and they're good ones. You're trying to conflate (and this has already been brought up so you should be aware by now) "overall freak athlete", which we know for a fact guarantees absolutely nothing, with lack of athletic ability intrinsically valuable to the specific task at hand, in this case playing RB at a high level in the NFL. "Freak athlete" is literally meaningless if not tied to production. (all else being equal it's obviously an asset but your pendulum swings too far too often in giving it value outside context)

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

"Freak athlete" is literally meaningless if not tied to production.

I disagree. Great production makes you a great player. It doesn't neccesarily make you a "freak athlete". For example, Larry Bird is one of the best NBA players ever but nobody would call him a "freak athlete". Trying to use production in a discussion over "freak athleticism" makes no sense.

 

[hndog609]

I disagree. Great production makes you a great player. It doesn't neccesarily make you a "freak athlete". For example, Larry Bird is one of the best NBA players ever but nobody would call him a "freak athlete". Trying to use production in a discussion over "freak athleticism" makes no sense.

Your reading comprehension is failing you as that's not the argument I made.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Your reading comprehension is failing you as that's not the argument I made.

Well that's the argument I'm making.

What's the problem then?

 

[superdave1984]

I think what he is saying is being a freak athlete does not always translate into being a great player.

 

[TDawg]

I think what he is saying is being a freak athlete does not always translate into being a great player.

I'll say this, it doesn't hurt either .. but the fact is, there are probably as many if not more freak athletes who didn't make it in the league as those that did

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I think what he is saying is being a freak athlete does not always translate into being a great player.

I agree with that. However, this argument started cause I said Le'Veon Bell isn't a freak athlete. Then others came in and said he was. I never said it takes a freak athlete to become a great player.