Ideas to break up the bama monopoly

#26
#26
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#27
#27
05_never_again said:
The desire to minimize what he's doing, either by claiming he's cheating or some argument that it isn't as impressive as it seems, is hilarious to me.

My favorite, which is usually said by people who are more NFL fans than college, is "I'm not all that impressed because he never plays a game where he has less talent than his opponent." Well yeah, duh. Isn't that the point? I guess they'd only be impressed if he took a ragtag bunch of misfits and won with them.
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I don’t view it as minimizing, I view it as rationalizing. Here is what Saban did in college prior to Bama:

6-6, 6-5, 7-5, 6-6, 9-2, 8-4, 10-3, 8-5, 13-1, 9-3. He also cratered in the NFL where the system is designed to equalize talent.

That is a pretty decent college coach. His best seasons were at LSU, where I’m sure they cheat with the best of them. And I get it, all teams do to a degree. That doesn’t take away from Saban’s greatness.

But at Bama it is taken to a whole other level with a matter of impunity from the rule enforcers. Their record with the NCAA is just abysmal. Couple that with a great coach and you get what we are seeing. Saban is a great coach that will win multiple titles at any school with resources. But this kind of run is so far outside the statistical norm that there has to be something else at play.

Call it sour grapes, call it being a sore loser. I don’t care. This is just explaining what is happening IMO.
 
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#28
#28
rjd970 said:
Alabama's long history of unpunished NCAA violations under Nick Saban | mgoblog

This is a pretty good rundown. I suspect it’s only scratching the surface.

This is what it is. All the talk about changing playoff rules, 85 player limits, etc....how about just enforce existing rules first?
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Other schools do the same thing including UT which is mentioned in the article. This is not the reason Alabama excels over the other schools. Saban is the College version of Bill Bellichek. He is superior at evaluating and developing talent for both players and coaches. He is also superior with game planning before and during games. He ability to change the Alabama roster to adapt to the evolving offensive schemes this year is the perfect example. Who would of thought 5 years ago that Alabama would produce possibly the greatest offense college football has ever seen( LSU 2019 Also has an argument for this distinction).
 
#29
#29
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
Other schools do the same thing including UT which is mentioned in the article. This is not the reason Alabama excels over the other schools. Saban is the College version of Bill Bellichek. He is superior at evaluating and developing talent for both players and coaches. He is also superior with game planning before and during games. He ability to change the Alabama roster to adapt to the evolving offensive schemes this year is the perfect example. Who would of thought 5 years ago that Alabama would produce possibly the greatest offense college football has ever seen( LSU 2019 Also has an argument for this distinction).
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You asked for evidence, there it is. Bama's history with the NCAA is long and distinguished. It's a cesspool down there.

Saying all schools do the same thing is the lazy argument. Show your evidence.
 
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#30
#30
rjd970 said:
You asked for evidence, there it is. Bama's history with the NCAA is long and distinguished. It's a cesspool down there.

Saying all schools do the same thing is the lazy argument. Show your evidence.
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Most of this is just allegations. There is the coach who was fired but the rest was just allegations. You even have an insider here admit recently that TN is cheating and we are currently under investigation. Singling out Alabama is just sour grapes. Saban is simply better than the other coaches in establishing and maintaining the football program.
 
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#31
#31
saban demands perfection, his lines don't jump off sides, his receivers don't drop passes, his quarterback goes through his progressions and doesn't throw an interception, and his linemen hold without being called for holding. If you can't do that , find somewhere else. Bama didn't have the fastest or the biggest receivers and backs but as a team they by far had the best....that's why they are and will be the best...and I hate to say that! GBO
 
#32
#32
Border Vol said:
Make it where the SEC East and SEC West are separate football conferences. That's a way to stop Alabama's dominance at least in the SEC.
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Do you mean Alabama would stop dominating because there would no longer be an "SEC"? If not, I'm not sure what splitting into two conferences would accomplish.
 
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#33
#33
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
Most of this is just allegations. There is the coach who was fired but the rest was just allegations. You even have an insider here admit recently that TN is cheating and we are currently under investigation. Singling out Alabama is just sour grapes. Saban is simply better than the other coaches in establishing and maintaining the football program.
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100% agree.

You think he could replicate this same kind of run anywhere else? And I'm not talking a couple of NCs.....I'm talking 6 NCs in 13 years....every recruiting class he has ever signed has played for it at one point.
 
#34
#34
#35
#35
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
Most of this is just allegations. There is the coach who was fired but the rest was just allegations. You even have an insider here admit recently that TN is cheating and we are currently under investigation. Singling out Alabama is just sour grapes. Saban is simply better than the other coaches in establishing and maintaining the football program.
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As I was told by a BB coach recently, Kentucky doesn't have to cheat anymore to get the best recruits, Bama is in the same boat - that doesn't mean that boosters still don't give $100 handshakes, or order surplus Dodges as demo vehicles - it just means they no longer have to....
 
#37
#37
rjd970 said:
I don’t view it as minimizing, I view it as rationalizing. Here is what Saban did in college prior to Bama:

6-6, 6-5, 7-5, 6-6, 9-2, 8-4, 10-3, 8-5, 13-1, 9-3. He also cratered in the NFL where the system is designed to equalize talent.

That is a pretty decent college coach. His best seasons were at LSU, where I’m sure they cheat with the best of them. And I get it, all teams do to a degree. That doesn’t take away from Saban’s greatness.

But at Bama it is taken to a whole other level with a matter of impunity from the rule enforcers. Their record with the NCAA is just abysmal. Couple that with a great coach and you get what we are seeing. Saban is a great coach that will win multiple titles at any school with resources. But this kind of run is so far outside the statistical norm that there has to be something else at play.

Call it sour grapes, call it being a sore loser. I don’t care. This is just explaining what is happening IMO.
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Saban probably isn't a football tactician/schemer on par with upper echelon NFL coaches. Upper echelon NFL coaches probably aren't recruiters, talent developers, and overall organizational managers on par with Saban. Different skill sets. I think Saban figured out that the NFL doesn't line up well with his skill set, so he went back to college. Saban didn't excel in the NFL, but there isn't a single NFL coach around that could do what he's done in college either.

As for his college career prior to Alabama, it is much better than "pretty decent." He won a national title and 2 SEC titles at LSU in 5 seasons, and LSU was absolutely terrible before he got there. As for Michigan St, he inherited a program that was nailed with sanctions from the George Perles era and it isn't like he was terrible there...he won just shy of 60% of both his overall games and conference games at a second-fiddle school in that conference. That team he had in his final year there finished in the top 10.
 
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#38
#38
rjd970 said:
100% agree.

You think he could replicate this same kind of run anywhere else? And I'm not talking a couple of NCs.....I'm talking 6 NCs in 13 years....every recruiting class he has ever signed has played for it at one point.
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He would significantly improve any football he was involved in. I’d he had came to UT in 2007/2008 and was given full control by he college administration , we would have multiple NC’s.
 
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#39
#39
Saban cheats. It's painfully obvious. To deny it would be like saying OJ didn't murder. But so do other schools, including TN. But the NCAA knows without a shadow of doubt that if they tried to hammer Saban and Bama, the Bama network of boosters and politicians would sue the NCAA to the point that the NCAA would collapse.

Wanna break up the monopoly? Start with disbanding the NCAA and form a new league
 
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#40
#40
rjd970 said:
100% agree.

You think he could replicate this same kind of run anywhere else? And I'm not talking a couple of NCs.....I'm talking 6 NCs in 13 years....every recruiting class he has ever signed has played for it at one point.
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If he was able to convince another administration to give him everything he wants like he was able to do at Alabama, then yes.

If he wasn't given full control, he'd still be very successful and probably would win a title(s), but not have the run of dominance that he's had.

Saban should be a case study for schools in that if you are lucky enough to have a great coach, give them what they want. Florida St is learning that lesson. They handcuffed Jimbo, even after he had won a title, and he eventually left because of it.
 
#42
#42
Who are we fooling after Saban went 1-4 officially (4-4) in the SEC in 2007, we'd have all been screaming to give Rich Rod a bigger offer.
 
#44
#44
rjd970 said:
7 of the last 9 #1 classes according to 247? About to be 8 of 10? And this year it won’t even be close.

Yeah, I’m pretty F’n sure they get who they want.
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At this point, the recruiting services shoot a player up the rankings purely because they are expected to commit, or have committed, to Alabama. Most if not all of them really are good players, but it undoubtedly skews the rankings. As long as he keeps winning like this, the recruiting services will say he has a top 3 class at worst.

I think we got a better sense of how good his recruiting was when he was at LSU and the first couple of years he was at Alabama, before he became an icon of the sport. His classes are ranked primarily because of his reputation at this point.
 
#45
#45
rjd970 said:
7 of the last 9 #1 classes according to 247? About to be 8 of 10? And this year it won’t even be close.

Yeah, I’m pretty F’n sure they get who they want.
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Why aren't they getting the Top 25 guys every year? Or at least the top ranked guy at every position of need? I mean, at the very least, Bama's 25 should be made up of nothing but Top 100 players.
 
#46
#46
05_never_again said:
At this point, the recruiting services shoot a player up the rankings purely because they are expected to commit, or have committed, to Alabama. Most if not all of them really are good players, but it undoubtedly skews the rankings. As long as he keeps winning like this, the recruiting services will say he has a top 3 class at worst.

I think we got a better sense of how good his recruiting was when he was at LSU and the first couple of years he was at Alabama, before he became an icon of the sport. His classes are ranked primarily because of his reputation at this point.
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The recruiting services will absolutely rank a player up as a result of his offer list, and that's probably a wise decision. If you want your rankings to be shown correct, it's best to rank up the guys who are going to schools where they're likely to perform. In the case of Alabama, there is no program that's better at turning highly ranked guys into 1st rounders at the current time.
 
#47
#47
So this banal uninteresting recruiting discussion gives me an idea which would actually work: Take the SEC TV money, and hand it out, different amounts to each school, based on recruit star rankings. So maybe I dock you $4 million for each 5 star in the recruiting class, and $2 million for each 4 star. Schools could endure that if they wanted to.
 
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#48
#48
Firebirdparts said:
So this banal uninteresting recruiting discussion gives me an idea which would actually work: Take the SEC TV money, and hand it out, different amounts to each school, based on recruit star rankings. So maybe I dock you $4 million for each 5 star in the recruiting class, and $2 million for each 4 star. Schools could endure that if they wanted to.
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Applying those numbers to this recruiting cycle, Alabama, Georgia, LSU, and A&M would likely owe money to the conference.
 
#49
#49
bamawriter said:
The recruiting services will absolutely rank a player up as a result of his offer list, and that's probably a wise decision. If you want your rankings to be shown correct, it's best to rank up the guys who are going to schools where they're likely to perform. In the case of Alabama, there is no program that's better at turning highly ranked guys into 1st rounders at the current time.
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Say you're 247 and you're ranking two recruits, recruit A and recruit B. Your evaluation concludes that recruit A is the better player - more athleticism, better size, better technique, etc. Recruit B is also a good player, but isn't as good as recruit A in any of those areas.

Recruit B signs with Alabama and recruit A signs with Tennessee. Recruit B is ranked higher.

Should where a player signs actually be a factor in their ranking, if the point of the rankings is to rank the best high school players? If the point is to rank the best players, where they sign should be irrelvant.

I think it is quite possible that after about 2012, some of these classes that Saban has signed might not have been #1 overall if the point is to rank the best high school players. Don't get me wrong - he isn't signing any #20 classes, but that is quite something that 247 has said that he's signed the #1 class about 80% of the time. In some of those years, I bet you another team might have signed a slightly "better" class overall, but they went to a school that doesn't have as good of a coach as Saban.
 
#50
#50
05_never_again said:
Say you're 247 and you're ranking two recruits, recruit A and recruit B. Your evaluation concludes that recruit A is the better player - more athleticism, better size, better technique, etc. Recruit B is also a good player, but isn't as good as recruit A in any of those areas.

Recruit B signs with Alabama and recruit A signs with Tennessee. Recruit B is ranked higher.

Should where a player signs actually be a factor in their ranking, if the point of the rankings is to rank the best high school players? If the point is to rank the best players, where they sign should be irrelvant.

I think it is quite possible that after about 2012, some of these classes that Saban has signed might not have been #1 overall if the point is to rank the best high school players. Don't get me wrong - he isn't signing any #20 classes, but that is quite something that 247 has said that he's signed the #1 class about 80% of the time. In some of those years, I bet you another team might have signed a slightly "better" class overall, but they went to a school that doesn't have as good of a coach as Saban.
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I should be clear: the services should not rank up a player based on where he signs, but they absolutely should based on his offer list.

Using your example, if Alabama didn't offer Recruit A then even if the services scouts viewed Recruit A as a better prospect, the fact that Alabama didn't offer should given them pause. And you can replace "Alabama" with any one of Georgia, LSU, Clemson, Ohio State, or Oklahoma.
 
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