I would like to thank the Supreme Court, the NCAA, the universities, and players and their parents for ruining college football

VFL-82-JP

Bleedin' Orange...
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
18,776
Likes
47,309
Forget NIL… the AD budget is about $170 million. 85 scholarships plus housing and food is liberally about 3% of that. That’s one heck of a ROI.
The costs are higher than you think. You mention 85 football scholarships, but say nothing about the other sports. UT has about 736 student athletes, male and female, in all sports.

And then there are the costs of the coaches. And the (surprisingly big) administrative staff. And the costs of running, maintaining, repairing and occasionally upgrading all the facilities, from Neyland Stadium to Thompson-Boling Arena to Lindsey Nelson Stadium, to all the tracks and swimming pools and tennis courts, etc., as well as the Thornton Center and all the ancillary facilities. And the costs of transportation, lodging, etc., every time any of the various teams travels to an away game or tournament. And on and on.

But forget all that for a moment, and let's just look at one piece: the people.

There are 736 student athletes at UTK, who receive an average of $19,225 per year in scholarships and aid. That's a total of $14.15m in assistance in each year's budget.

There are also 16 head coaches and 51 assistant coaches in all the various sports, making a total of $27.51m in salaries. But as any CEO or CFO can tell you, the cost of hiring someone is actually between 1.25 and 1.4 times their salary, because the employer also has to pay matching taxes, as well as cover benefits like medical coverage. So the coaches, all together, cost the university more like $34.4m per year.

Running a major university athletic program takes hundreds of people. Literally. Over 200 folks on the staff directory of UTAD. Dan White personally makes $1.8m, and his 200 subordinates together cost somewhere north of $10m. That's another estimated $11.8m in expenses.

So we haven't even begun talking about facilities and programs, travel and lodging, we're just talking paying the people who make UT sports go, and we're up to:

$14.15m (athletes) + $34.4m (coaches) + $11.8m (admin staff) = $60.3m

...

That leaves about $110m for all the other things required to make a major university's athletics program tick. We've just isolated one piece, the people, and we've already spent about a third of the budget.

It would be much, much harder to research those other expenses, but I'm guessing they eat up the lion's share of what's left from the AD budget of $170m.

Point is, there's not a lot of profit here. Lot of money, but not a lot of extra money. This isn't a crazy-good money making venture. It is an expensive business with expensive people, expensive facilities, and expensive activities.

Student-athletes suing for their fair share of the proceeds might find after discovery that the surplus funds are much, much smaller than they (and you) might be imagining.

Go Vols!


Some sources used:
https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/the-university-of-tennessee/student-life/sports/
⚖ At The End Of The Day, How Much Does An Employee Cost? - Hourly, Inc..
Staff Directory - University of Tennessee Athletics
 
Last edited:

EZE

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
11,741
Likes
12,389
“Exploiting” might be too strong…but not by much.

A lot of people got very, very wealthy off of the $100 million+ business of college football over the years…Coaches have busted through the $10-million-a-year thresh with no end in sight.

It only makes sense for the players to have some slices of the pie. My only problem with it is the lack of governance and regulation. And I don’t see how we ever get there.
 

GAVol

Overrated
Staff member
Joined
Oct 24, 2003
Messages
111,291
Likes
57,393
The costs are higher than you think. You mention 85 football scholarships, but say nothing about the other sports.
Of course there are are more costs. My point was just to illustrate that the player’s piece of the pie was dwarfed by overall revenue and we all know that football is paying the bills in most ADs.
 
Likes: VFL-82-JP

VFL-82-JP

Bleedin' Orange...
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
18,776
Likes
47,309
Of course there are are more costs. My point was just to illustrate that the player’s piece of the pie was dwarfed by overall revenue and we all know that football is paying the bills in most ADs.
Yeah, you're right. Football (and to a very limited extent, men's basketball) are paying for all the other sports.

On the other hand, the football program also eats the lion's share of the budget. No other sport has 11 coaches and scores of support staff. Neyland Stadium is easily the most expensive single facility to maintain, repair and upgrade. Football away games cost a small fortune...for each one. Home games sometimes pay the opponent a half million dollars (or even a million) just to come play.

So big revenue, but also big expense. It would be an interesting study to find out how much profit there would be if the football program DID stand alone, separate from all other sports and the university.
 

SayUWantAreVOLution

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2019
Messages
4,230
Likes
5,086
The costs are higher than you think. You mention 85 football scholarships, but say nothing about the other sports. UT has about 736 student athletes, male and female, in all sports.

And then there are the costs of the coaches. And the (surprisingly big) administrative staff. And the costs of running, maintaining, repairing and occasionally upgrading all the facilities, from Neyland Stadium to Thompson-Boling Arena to Lindsey Nelson Stadium, to all the tracks and swimming pools and tennis courts, etc., as well as the Thornton Center and all the ancillary facilities. And the costs of transportation, lodging, etc., every time any of the various teams travels to an away game or tournament. And on and on.

But forget all that for a moment, and let's just look at one piece: the people.

There are 736 student athletes at UTK, who receive an average of $19,225 per year in scholarships and aid. That's a total of $14.15m in assistance in each year's budget.

There are also 16 head coaches and 51 assistant coaches in all the various sports, making a total of $27.51m in salaries. But as any CEO or CFO can tell you, the cost of hiring someone is actually between 1.25 and 1.4 times their salary, because the employer also has to pay matching taxes, as well as cover benefits like medical coverage. So the coaches, all together, cost the university more like $34.4m per year.

Running a major university athletic program takes hundreds of people. Literally. Over 200 folks on the staff directory of UTAD. Dan White personally makes $1.8m, and his 200 subordinates together cost somewhere north of $10m. That's another estimated $11.8m in expenses.

So we haven't even begun talking about facilities and programs, travel and lodging, we're just talking paying the people who make UT sports go, and we're up to:

$14.15m (athletes) + $34.4m (coaches) + $11.8m (admin staff) = $60.3m

...

That leaves about $110m for all the other things required to make a major university's athletics program tick. We've just isolated one piece, the people, and we've already spent about a third of the budget.

It would be much, much harder to research those other expenses, but I'm guessing they eat up the lion's share of what's left from the AD budget of $170m.

Point is, there's not a lot of profit here. Lot of money, but not a lot of extra money. This isn't a crazy-good money making venture. It is an expensive business with expensive people, expensive facilities, and expensive activities.

Student-athletes suing for their fair share of the proceeds might find after discovery that the surplus funds are much, much smaller than they (and you) might be imagining.

Go Vols!


Some sources used:
https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/the-university-of-tennessee/student-life/sports/
⚖ At The End Of The Day, How Much Does An Employee Cost? - Hourly, Inc..
Staff Directory - University of Tennessee Athletics
When you put it this way, Tennessee Athletics sounds like a highly complex professional sports conglomerate, doesn't it?

Lots of high cost employees, high maintenance facilities, big expenditures to keep it
running, etc.

How can it not be a pro sports company?

If so, why aren't ALL the athletes being paid?
 

Ref4Life

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
264
Likes
447
Same people on here and social media complaining about NIL also claim to believe in a free market and capitalism. People are making money off these kids by the time they hit puberty or sooner and then people get all butt hurt that they want to get paid. Nothing is being ruined but some of these kids are making money off their own hard work and talent and there is nothing being ruined by that
 

VolsSportsFan

Mo Money Mo Problems - Michael Scott
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
69,667
Likes
41,172
Same people on here and social media complaining about NIL also claim to believe in a free market and capitalism. People are making money off these kids by the time they hit puberty or sooner and then people get all butt hurt that they want to get paid. Nothing is being ruined but some of these kids are making money off their own hard work and talent and there is nothing being ruined by that
This.

All this pissing and moaning is all emotional because things aren't the same as they've always been, and the funniest part is some of the biggest whiners are the the free market/capitalism "facts don't about your feelings" crowd.
 
Likes: kcvols1

Advol

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
1,573
Likes
1,617
NCAA has been a **** show for decades.
The NFL Minor Leagues will shake out soon and all will be well.
Soon we will have beer patches on the Unis.
 

lawgator1

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
67,320
Likes
39,585
Same people on here and social media complaining about NIL also claim to believe in a free market and capitalism. People are making money off these kids by the time they hit puberty or sooner and then people get all butt hurt that they want to get paid. Nothing is being ruined but some of these kids are making money off their own hard work and talent and there is nothing being ruined by that

Depends on your definition of "ruined." Yes, in the sense that it seems that NIL will completely change things and reduce the sense of community we are used to, that bothers me.
 
Likes: Go aeiou

Go aeiou

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
2,418
Likes
1,516
There will be no such thing as loyalty to a program, school, or coach. The best players will force universities into bidding wars. A QB that wins the Heisman as a junior? He'll put himself on the free agency list for the portal the day after the bowls are done. Gone will be the days of sitting in the stands and watching a player progress over 2 to 4 years, maybe 5.

I'm not naive, I know it happened before on a lesser scale when it was not legal to make offers like we see now. But the scope of it now, and the fact that its going to just get worse....

There is no solution. NIL cannot be capped. I don't know, maybe student athletes never really did have much loyalty or allegiancI'm all for slaverye and we romanticized it off the strength of the very few that seemed to embrace it, Peyton Manning, Tim Tebow. But now school fan bases are going to needle each other about how they stole this player or that player.

Time to realize that it was really just all about the show in years past? TV rights, pageantry, fight songs. The whole thing is just so depressing.
I'm all for slavery. These guys should be willing to ruin their bodies for a meaningless college degree while the universities make millions off them.
 
Likes: SpookyAction

lawgator1

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
67,320
Likes
39,585
I'm all for slavery. These guys should be willing to ruin their bodies for a meaningless college degree while the universities make millions off them.
For the upteenth time I am not objecting to NIL at all. I agree with you on this. And yes, per your other post, things change.

Doesn't mean I can't lament the effects. NIL just makes the supposed loyalty of a player or his desire to play for "my school" contrived and insincere.
 
Likes: Go aeiou

TheDeeble

Guy on the Couch
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
8,699
Likes
6,722
For the upteenth time I am not objecting to NIL at all. I agree with you on this. And yes, per your other post, things change.

Doesn't mean I can't lament the effects. NIL just makes the supposed loyalty of a player or his desire to play for "my school" contrived and insincere.
The previous "loyalty" of a player prior to NIL was already contrived. They had no other option. Player picked a school, couldn't get any payment or even have a job because it was an NCAA violation, and couldn't transfer without sitting out for a year. There were few options for a player once they sign the LOI.

Had players had some options they would be like coaches. Some find a place they like and stay no matter what. Some are always going to be looking for a better job or more money. That's where we're at now.
 
Likes: Raebo

VFL-82-JP

Bleedin' Orange...
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
18,776
Likes
47,309
The previous "loyalty" of a player prior to NIL was already contrived. They had no other option. Player picked a school, couldn't get any payment or even have a job because it was an NCAA violation, and couldn't transfer without sitting out for a year. There were few options for a player once they sign the LOI.

Had players had some options they would be like coaches. Some find a place they like and stay no matter what. Some are always going to be looking for a better job or more money. That's where we're at now.
One could even argue that the transfer portal, eased NCAA restrictions on transfers, and NIL are increasing the net loyalty of players.

Consider: if there were 100% free movement of athletes from university to university, 24/7/365, every player would always be where the player most wanted to be.

Because if that's not where the player wanted to be, the player would move.

Now, it's never truly 100% free movement. There are many sources of friction (it's a pain to move, to uproot and re-establish at a new school, to leave friends, etc.), not every university is willing to accept every player, and transfers aren't a complete free-for-all in spite of the eased rules.

Still, movement is freer and easier today than it has been at any other point in the history of NCAA management of college sport, which means players are more where they want to be now than at any time previously. So...more loyal to where they are.

[just don't look too close at what loyalty means in this context, it might have a lot more to do with $$$ and NFL chances and coaches than to any love for the institution...but then, that's been true forever, too]

Go Vols!
 
Likes: Raebo

Voltopia

Score fast, score hard, no mercy.
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
4,498
Likes
10,625
Depends on your definition of "ruined." Yes, in the sense that it seems that NIL will completely change things and reduce the sense of community we are used to, that bothers me.
Forget about any sense of community. There won't be any sense of community. It's already bleeding out. I've said it fifteen thousand times, but there's an ocean of difference between supporting students representing their school in an intercollegiate competition, versus supporting professionals in a pro sport. All that school spirit rah rah stuff is pointless and stupid in a professional setting. Why care about the school? The school is irrelevant. Homecoming? Irrelevant. Senior day? Irrelevant. Rivalries? Headed toward irrelevant, with money-driven conference bloat.

And really, if it's going to be a professional setting, they should really divorce the entire sport from the schools and make it sink or swim on its own. It has no business being associated with colleges at that point. Get their own branding, their own stadiums, and their own support structure. But eject it from the schools and make it live on its own, because it won't have damn all to do with the University of Tennessee (or any other school).
 

GAVol

Overrated
Staff member
Joined
Oct 24, 2003
Messages
111,291
Likes
57,393
For the upteenth time I am not objecting to NIL at all. I agree with you on this. And yes, per your other post, things change.

Doesn't mean I can't lament the effects. NIL just makes the supposed loyalty of a player or his desire to play for "my school" contrived and insincere.
How loyal are all the kids out there waiting to make a college choice based on scholarships, grant money, internships, job opportunities? I get what you are saying to a point, but I just don't see it as a new thing.
 

TheDeeble

Guy on the Couch
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
8,699
Likes
6,722
And really, if it's going to be a professional setting, they should really divorce the entire sport from the schools and make it sink or swim on its own. It has no business being associated with colleges at that point. Get their own branding, their own stadiums, and their own support structure. But eject it from the schools and make it live on its own, because it won't have damn all to do with the University of Tennessee (or any other school).
That would be an entertaining fight to watch. I believe there will be numerous people fighting that change. If college sports is ever separated from colleges and made into a minor league system, I think a lot of the money dries up when there is no more fanatical fan bases to support it.
 

Voltopia

Score fast, score hard, no mercy.
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
4,498
Likes
10,625
That would be an entertaining fight to watch. I believe there will be numerous people fighting that change. If college sports is ever separated from colleges and made into a minor league system, I think a lot of the money dries up when there is no more fanatical fan bases to support it.
Oh I agree, but that's the trick here. The people who have constantly demanded change after change, who insist on making college sports professional, they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want the large, established, community and region-oriented fanbases who have bought into these college programs over a hundred years of existence as scholastic athletic competition, but want to leverage those programs in a professional sports environment.

That's a no go. You don't get both.

What is it they always say? "It's farcical to pretend like college football has anything to do with college anymore." Fine. You win. You're right, let's stop pretending. You want another pro league, then fine, have another pro league, but you do not have any business being tied to the schools at that point. Take your money and go. Go build your own stadiums, go build your own facilities, and leave college sports to colleges. Let the schools start over with college programs that are built on letting students participate in intercollegiate competitions. No big money, no big TV, just college students competing for their schools again. I would welcome the day.
 
Last edited:

VFL-82-JP

Bleedin' Orange...
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
18,776
Likes
47,309
Forget about any sense of community. There won't be any sense of community. It's already bleeding out. I've said it fifteen thousand times, but there's an ocean of difference between supporting students representing their school in an intercollegiate competition, versus supporting professionals in a pro sport. All that school spirit rah rah stuff is pointless and stupid in a professional setting. Why care about the school? The school is irrelevant. Homecoming? Irrelevant. Senior day? Irrelevant. Rivalries? Headed toward irrelevant, with money-driven conference bloat.

And really, if it's going to be a professional setting, they should really divorce the entire sport from the schools and make it sink or swim on its own. It has no business being associated with colleges at that point. Get their own branding, their own stadiums, and their own support structure. But eject it from the schools and make it live on its own, because it won't have damn all to do with the University of Tennessee (or any other school).
I don't agree in the least, Voltopia.

Wherever you have two or more humans, you have community. It can be dysfunctional, idyllic, or anything in between. But some form of community ALWAYS emerges and grows when people gather together.

That is just as true in sports teams and organizations as any other type. Humans rally around their shared events and institutions. Senior day? It will still be important, even if some of the kids being celebrated are making big $$$. Graduation? For some, important. For others, not so much. Just as it has been over the past century. Rivalries? You can bet they will remain just as important as they are today; competitors love to compete.

School spirit, caring about the college, my tribe over your tribe, all that. Still important. Because we are still humans--including the players you are gnashing your teeth over--and humans cling to social structure. Whether rich or poor.

So I don't agree with you. The totality of human nature does not agree with you. The changes taking place are nowhere near as drastic and disruptive as you seem to think.

Go Vols!
 
Last edited:

butchna

Sit down and tell me all about it...way over there
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
96,051
Likes
171,280
NCAA has been a **** show for decades.
The NFL Minor Leagues will shake out soon and all will be well.
Soon we will have beer patches on the Unis.
One thing has nothing to do with the other. Brewer wants to do deals with athletes? It would manifest in beer ads with said athlete. Those jerseys are the property of the universities.
 

Go aeiou

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
2,418
Likes
1,516
For the upteenth time I am not objecting to NIL at all. I agree with you on this. And yes, per your other post, things change.

Doesn't mean I can't lament the effects. NIL just makes the supposed loyalty of a player or his desire to play for "my school" contrived and insincere.
Yeah, I'm getting old, and it seems like many of the changes are not for the better. This one is not better for the fans.
For the athlete it might be their only opportunity to make any real money. OTOH, if you gave me much money while in college I would have probably blown it.
 
Likes: Voltopia

volfanhill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
27,476
Likes
37,668
Yeah, I'm getting old, and it seems like many of the changes are not for the better. This one is not better for the fans.
For the athlete it might be their only opportunity to make any real money. OTOH, if you gave me much money while in college I would have probably blown it.
It's not about you. It's about them being to do what every single American can do. Which they couldn't until now. Celebrate freedom. It's more important then football
 

tombowalker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2021
Messages
157
Likes
205
I know this is probably a dumb question, but does any NIL money have to go toward tuition/books etc? Are kids getting free-ride scholarships AND NIL money?

I haven't talked to a single person who thinks the NIL thing is a good idea.
There's nothing wrong with players making money from their name, image and likeness. If they build a Twitter or Instagram following, they should be allowed to monetize it.

But that's not what's happening right now. Players aren't building personal brands. They don't have agents hustling sponsorships.

Players are approaching it as a salary.... which is the problem.

They're getting all of the upside of a salary (i.e. $$$) without any of the downsides. (contracts)

I don't know the solution. The genie isn't going back in the bottle. At this point, we should just strive to be the best at it.
 

VN Store




Top