I think some of you seriously misunderstand Butch

[Gandalf]

It seems all I hear from the "supposed negavols" is that CBJ is happy with (or at least accepting of) mediocrity - good but not great - because he simply doesnt have the skills to get us to glory and likely never will. Thus he tries to convince the fanbase that 8-9 wins is "good enough" for where we are at and that you should continually blindly hope for the future, because hey, you never know.

You people are silly. Its not that CBJ accepts or is happy with anything less than a championship - its just that he didnt get there this year (for a lot of reasons, some his fault and others not), and he is trying to re-frame to the positive. "Always be thinking positive" is likely something he buys into. I have absolutely no inside info whatsoever but CBJ presents as someone whom is 100% bought into the whole shtick, full on Knute Rockne style. And I doubt he could sell it if he wasnt.

Vol fans need to understand, they are likely NEVER to see CBJ speak a negative word about his coaches, players or lack of success, in a game or a season - or anyone else's for that matter. Its just not his style. Steve Spurrier he is not and never will be. Get used to it.

A pretty much universally accepted fact is that Butch has done a good job of resurrecting UT from the dumpster fire we were in for almost a decade. Where it wasnt a question of winning the Bowl game or griping about not getting the one we wanted but IF we would even get one. Now we are back to where winning seasons are expected as a given and EVERYONE expects UT to compete for the East at a minimum and have a real shot of getting to the playoffs. That deserves a lot of respect because no, we dont have winning seasons, bowl games and recruit top 10 just because we are Tennessee. It takes a lot of work and talent over other people who are trying to do exactly the same thing, especially in the SEC.

That said, NOBODY is satisfied with where we are at (ending as merely a top 25 program 2nd year in a row) - and that MOST ESPECIALLY includes "Lyle" Butch Jones. The good news is that he is fairly young for coaching a top program so he has energy and time to learn. I think it can be said that he has made the adjustment from mid major to power 5 and even as a competitive coach in the SEC but it remains to be seen if he can make the leap to being an elite coach. Will he succeed? I dont know but he is making adjustments, including coaching changes, etc, so perhaps he can. Lets all hope so but dont expect to hear anything but relentless coach speak to ever leave his lips. That is how he is wired and he (righly) thinks that the only difference between being laughed at and derided for his aphorisms versus seeing everyone declare them as pearls of genius that Vol Nation will put as Holy Writ on posters on their walls... is just 2-3 more wins per season :thumbsup:

 

[BubbaWms]

you had me hook, line and sinker....right up until the "Lyle" part :ermm:

 

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

Butch is a terrible coach

 

[checkerboards09]

Positivity comes with positive results.

 

[volfannbama]

The main issue here is that there is no middle ground, either you are a sunshine pumper telling everyone to shut up and color or your are negavol that wants Butch fired.
Just because you are always thinking positive doesn't mean you are always right. Most reasonable people can be happy about the wins and things CBJ has done with the program and can also express the opinion of doubt that he will take the vols any further, while providing logical thinking to back it up. And they should be able to do so without begin called silly, stupid, and having their character and fanhood questioned.

 

[QuickSmurf]

Energy vampires imo

 

['Boro-vol]

When he stops regularly losing to teams he shouldn't lose to we'll talk.

Until then he's a career 8.7 wpy coach, who is in over his head in the SEC. The used car salesman justifications don't help his case, and just expose him as not big enough for this job.

 

[05_never_again]

When he stops regularly losing to teams he shouldn't lose to we'll talk.

Until then he's a career 8.7 wpy coach, who is in over his head in the SEC. The used car salesman justifications don't help his case, and just expose him as not big enough for this job.

Yep.

In big situations, I do get the impression that he is in over his head a little bit. It was actually more evident last year than this year, IMO. The "we have a chart" comment after the Florida loss last year was really eye-opening to me.

 

[sjt18]

More spin in an attempt to explain why Jones has left wins on the field in each of his 4 years... and has actually gotten WORSE as his roster improved. You could argue that in year one he lost a game to Vandy that should have been a win and a bowl. In year two, he lost to a 4-8 UF team at home but managed to get his one and only upset win over a favored opponent... USCe.

In each of the last two years, he's lost 3 games that should have been wins. It seems that better players do little but expose him as a coach.

 

[CountVolcula]

2-2 vs Vandy

1-3 vs Florida

2-2 vs Georgia

0-4 vs Bama

0-4 vs rest of West division

14-18 SEC record


Dropped in recruiting rankings

Not even in top 5 recruiting in the SEC

The writing is on the wall

 

[goooooovols]

When he stops regularly losing to teams he shouldn't lose to we'll talk.

Until then he's a career 8.7 wpy coach, who is in over his head in the SEC. The used car salesman justifications don't help his case, and just expose him as not big enough for this job.

In all honesty I'm ok with 9-11 wpy, national championships are few and far between...

In not saying I wouldn't be overjoyed to see our Vols win it all just saying if the Phil,lane,dooley span between 2008-2014 taught us anything it's that consistent winning seasons is not a given and we shouldn't take it for granted.

 

['Boro-vol]

2-2 vs Vandy

1-3 vs Florida

2-2 vs Georgia

0-4 vs Bama

0-4 vs rest of West division

14-18 SEC record


Dropped in recruiting rankings

Not even in top 5 recruiting in the SEC

The writing is on the wall

It's really stark when put in black and white like this. Under no other set of circumstances would numbers like that be acceptable. He's simply fortunate that he was the man to follow Dooley. The bar was set sufficiently low as to make even this seem adequate.

 

[sjt18]

FTR, I think most of us you consider negative understand Jones just fine. He's trying to deflect pressure. You got that part right. Also, we all appreciate how far Jones has moved the program in the right direction... we just also recognize that he doesn't seem to have the talent to move it much further. He has peaked at UT.

Unfortunately, more time and OJT won't fix it. You need players to fix it and he is now a 4th year coach who squandered his player talent and opportunities to win the East. Some of us predicted that if he couldn't win within 3 years that recruits would stop listening to his "better days just ahead" sales pitch. We said they'd move on to the new kid in town.... That's what we seem to be seeing this year in Vol recruiting.

 

[fade route]

OP wrote 5 paragraphs of straw man argument

 

[onevol74]

2-2 vs Vandy

1-3 vs Florida

2-2 vs Georgia

0-4 vs Bama

0-4 vs rest of West division

14-18 SEC record


Dropped in recruiting rankings

Not even in top 5 recruiting in the SEC

The writing is on the wall

I think this is the report card on Butch. It is about the results. You can not say this program is competitive in the SEC when you are 0-8 against the West. In 2017 UGA, Florida, LSU, and Bama will be much better teams than this year. Do not see is being better. And if you add in one game where he always slips up in game day coaching we may be looking at 7-5, or 6-6.

 

[IPleadInsanity]

It seems all I hear from the "supposed negavols" is that CBJ is happy with (or at least accepting of) mediocrity - good but not great - because he simply doesnt have the skills to get us to glory and likely never will. Thus he tries to convince the fanbase that 8-9 wins is "good enough" for where we are at and that you should continually blindly hope for the future, because hey, you never know.

You people are silly. Its not that CBJ accepts or is happy with anything less than a championship - its just that he didnt get there this year (for a lot of reasons, some his fault and others not), and he is trying to re-frame to the positive. "Always be thinking positive" is likely something he buys into. I have absolutely no inside info whatsoever but CBJ presents as someone whom is 100% bought into the whole shtick, full on Knute Rockne style. And I doubt he could sell it if he wasnt.

Vol fans need to understand, they are likely NEVER to see CBJ speak a negative word about his coaches, players or lack of success, in a game or a season - or anyone else's for that matter. Its just not his style. Steve Spurrier he is not and never will be. Get used to it.

A pretty much universally accepted fact is that Butch has done a good job of resurrecting UT from the dumpster fire we were in for almost a decade. Where it wasnt a question of winning the Bowl game or griping about not getting the one we wanted but IF we would even get one. Now we are back to where winning seasons are expected as a given and EVERYONE expects UT to compete for the East at a minimum and have a real shot of getting to the playoffs. That deserves a lot of respect because no, we dont have winning seasons, bowl games and recruit top 10 just because we are Tennessee. It takes a lot of work and talent over other people who are trying to do exactly the same thing, especially in the SEC.

That said, NOBODY is satisfied with where we are at (ending as merely a top 25 program 2nd year in a row) - and that MOST ESPECIALLY includes "Lyle" Butch Jones. The good news is that he is fairly young for coaching a top program so he has energy and time to learn. I think it can be said that he has made the adjustment from mid major to power 5 and even as a competitive coach in the SEC but it remains to be seen if he can make the leap to being an elite coach. Will he succeed? I dont know but he is making adjustments, including coaching changes, etc, so perhaps he can. Lets all hope so but dont expect to hear anything but relentless coach speak to ever leave his lips. That is how he is wired and he (righly) thinks that the only difference between being laughed at and derided for his aphorisms versus seeing everyone declare them as pearls of genius that Vol Nation will put as Holy Writ on posters on their walls... is just 2-3 more wins per season :thumbsup:

Thats ridiculous, every man working on any job learns something every day. Butch is not stupid and is learning from every win/loss. Fact of the matter is they hired a guy without SEC experience who must learn that part "on the job". Getting rid of him at this point would be foolish, he must be getting close to being called experienced. Still you can't lose to Vandy back to back so he is under some pressure.

 

[BanditVol]

OP, you sum up a lot of what I have been thinking also.

Just hope Butch reels in this recruiting class and then does better than expected this fall.

 

['Boro-vol]

I don't expect National Championships...They are exceedingly tough to come by. I expect to compete for the East more often than not. I really expect for 8-9 wins to be the baseline. I mostly expect to beat teams we're supposed to beat, and put a scare in those we're not. I expect to occasionally win one when we are an underdog. And I really expect to compete, hard, with teams we identify as traditional rivals.

I don't expect miracles...I expect to be who we have traditionally been. I want to be respected and in the conversation as a traditional power again.

 

[vol-un-tear]

Not misunderstanding this. He needs to cut out the BS babble and win the SEC (east for starters). Losing to Vandy and blowing the Sugar Bowl invite hurt him. If Martinez is coaching DB's next year Butch should be canned on that alone!

 

[volfanbill]

The whole premise of this is silly to me. Are there actual people that believe he's happy with these results? I haven't seen them. What I have seen, and this is a big difference, is a bunch of fans who don't think Butch will ever get much better than what we've already seen. His view of the current state of the program is rather insignificant when compared to becoming an SEC powerhouse again, and whether or not Butch is the guy to get us there.

 

[jakez4ut]

It's really stark when put in black and white like this. Under no other set of circumstances would numbers like that be acceptable. He's simply fortunate that he was the man to follow Dooley. The bar was set sufficiently low as to make even this seem adequate.

agreed. you can recognize this for job well done. we don't suck out loud anymore. that's good.

there was literally no where to go but up. how far up....well.....that's a different discussion, and why we find ourselves where we are with this coach presently.

 

[jakez4ut]

I don't expect National Championships...They are exceedingly tough to come by. I expect to compete for the East more often than not. I really expect for 8-9 wins to be the baseline. I mostly expect to beat teams we're supposed to beat, and put a scare in those we're not. I expect to occasionally win one when we are an underdog. And I really expect to compete, hard, with teams we identify as traditional rivals.

I don't expect miracles...I expect to be who we have traditionally been. I want to be respected and in the conversation as a traditional power again.

agreed again. and you can't do that when you're .500 against Vandy and 0 fer against Will freakin' Muschamp.

when you beat FL and GA...it's perfectly reasonable to expect bigger and better things in a given season. to accomplish those two things, and still miss ATL by 2 games anyway????

 

[sjt18]

Thats ridiculous, every man working on any job learns something every day. Butch is not stupid and is learning from every win/loss. Fact of the matter is they hired a guy without SEC experience who must learn that part "on the job". Getting rid of him at this point would be foolish, he must be getting close to being called experienced. Still you can't lose to Vandy back to back so he is under some pressure.

I have worked with hundreds of experienced and competent people.... who simply weren't top tier. They're OK at a certain level of competition and challenges but they cannot step up. That appears to be Jones. If you watched you could see it early with in game coaching. I was willing (and hopeful) to believe that he was just trying to establish discipline in the first two years. The last two seem to have revealed that he just isn't a very good game day/week coach. At least not good enough to compete in the SEC.

You say, "but he can recruit". Well, that's a problem too. Talent rich states like GA or LA can cover for a mediocre coach for a very long time. Some kids grow up homers and won't go anywhere else. TN doesn't have that kind of homegrown talent... and Jones doesn't seem to be getting the most of what there is.

So he's dependent on getting out of state blue chips to choose UT over other national recruiters and their instate schools. WINNING is a prerequisite for being able to do that on any consistent basis.

 

[BeecherVol]

Jones is a mixture between a car salesman and a carnival barker (coined by a former player and donor). None of that mattered 2-4 years ago. Most new he had to hire well and manage well to be a long term success and didn't care about the cliches and racket at the time.
The job is now different than it was 4 years ago and the questions come more frequent and pointed than they did when you lose (specifically to teams you should beat). Jones has tried to control the narrative through the media in these instances lately and its not working out.

 

[sjt18]

The whole premise of this is silly to me. Are there actual people that believe he's happy with these results?

I doubt it. I think that was just a straw man constructed by the OP. It isn't relevant whether he's happy or not. It is only relevant what he has done and has the ability to do in the future.... and therein lies 100% of the problem.