I still don't understand all the animosity toward Butch Jones

#301
#301
butchna said:
People “who were onto him from the outset” guessed right. They weren’t privy to any more knowledge than those that were excited about the recruiting energy and embrace of relationships with alumni and high school coaches. I don’t regret hoping he was the answer, so put me on the list and go get everybody else.
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It wasn't a guess when a Big East coach who had never really improved anything (rode Kelly's coattails twice) comes in offering tripe like an "infallible system" and "best coaching staff in America." He was clearly a damn idiot from the jump.

Honestly, I think the reason that people were running around saying "Butch gets it" was to try to convince themselves. And then, ha, some of y'all actually did convince yourselves and spend the next 4 years trying to shout down anyone with some clarity on the situation.
 
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#303
#303
Unconditional Surrender said:
It wasn't a guess when a Big East coach who had never really improved anything (rode Kelly's coattails twice) comes in offering tripe like an "infallible system" and "best coaching staff in America." He was clearly a damn idiot from the jump.

Honestly, I think the reason that people were running around saying "Butch gets it" was to try to convince themselves. And then, ha, some of y'all actually did convince yourselves and spend the next 4 years trying to shout down anyone with some clarity on the situation.
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He didn’t invent coachspeak and salesman tactics. The only “home run hire” in that class of SEC hires was considered to be Brett Bieliema...how’d that work out? People who declared Butch an instant failure has to wait for it. Because he had some recruiting success and won 3 bowls. Poo poo that in context, but if he hadn’t even made a bowl? That would have been cited as proof. Call it a self educated guess if you wanna print that T-shirt...but it was a guess. FACTS are something that happened...not something PREDICTED. Butch did get it with top 5 classes and renewed relationships with alumni and high school coaches...til he didn’t when he couldn’t progress anymore and went backwards. You Told You So’ers are going to need to content yourself with being eventually proven right...when time gave you that license.
 
#304
#304
butchna said:
He didn’t invent coachspeak and salesman tactics. The only “home run hire” in that class of SEC hires was considered to be Brett Bieliema...how’d that work out? People who declared Butch an instant failure has to wait for it. Because he had some recruiting success and won 3 bowls. Poo poo that in context, but if he hadn’t even made a bowl? That would have been cited as proof. Call it a self educated guess if you wanna print that T-shirt...but it was a guess. FACTS are something that happened...not something PREDICTED. Butch did get it with top 5 classes and renewed relationships with alumni and high school coaches...til he didn’t when he couldn’t progress anymore and went backwards. You Told You So’ers are going to need to content yourself with being eventually proven right...when time gave you that license.
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I've never put too much stock into bowl games because so often one team cares and the other doesn't. BUT, with that said, Butch had his teams ready to kick-a$$ during those 3 wins. You go from that arse whoopin' put on N'western (Purple Vandy is still one of the greatest nicknames) and the enthusiasm going into '16 and seeing it fall apart. The schedule had a lot to do with it. 7 straight games before a week off. Then it all went sideways.
 
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#305
#305
butchna said:
You had your own set of indicators...I remember. You weren’t privy to any INFORMATION or set of facts unavailable to the rest of us. Guessing, determined results...pick your poison.
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No. I didn't. I just read the meaning of the information differently.
 
#306
#306
sjt18 said:
No. I didn't. I just read the meaning of the information differently.
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It was still a PREDICTION based on the same set of facts...and your take on it. You felt he wouldn’t be able to adjust...but you didn’t KNOW.
 
#307
#307
butchna said:
It was still a PREDICTION based on the same set of facts...and your take on it. You felt he wouldn’t be able to adjust...but you didn’t KNOW.
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Of course not. No one "knows" the future even if they feel confident about something.

It wasn't just "adjustment". I believed there were character and leadership issues. I felt his ideas on S&C, offense, personnel, etc were suspect.

In retrospect, I think most would have to admit that attrition, injuries, game management failures, and his "fakeness" were legitimate pointers to failure. The great coaches get more out of a team than the sum of its parts. Jones consistently got less. A lot of people didn't like me saying that as he was doing it.
 
#309
#309
Boca Vol said:
I've never put too much stock into bowl games because so often one team cares and the other doesn't. BUT, with that said, Butch had his teams ready to kick-a$$ during those 3 wins. You go from that arse whoopin' put on N'western (Purple Vandy is still one of the greatest nicknames) and the enthusiasm going into '16 and seeing it fall apart. The schedule had a lot to do with it. 7 straight games before a week off. Then it all went sideways.
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I was here! My point was that many posters disregard the bowls but were on record that WHEN he lost those bowls he should immediately be fired. So they weren’t a factor but they were.
 
#310
#310
sjt18 said:
Of course not. No one "knows" the future even if they feel confident about something.

It wasn't just "adjustment". I believed there were character and leadership issues. I felt his ideas on S&C, offense, personnel, etc were suspect.

In retrospect, I think most would have to admit that attrition, injuries, game management failures, and his "fakeness" were legitimate pointers to failure. The great coaches get more out of a team than the sum of its parts. Jones consistently got less. A lot of people didn't like me saying that as he was doing it.
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His ideas on S&C were on point before he caved on Lawson, tho I remember he wasn’t a sacred cow for you. His game management has to be weighed against his disparity in talent when he first took the job and it was eventually found to be lacking tho he out coached Spurrier and his vastly superior squad in his first season...so the red flags had to wait. The beginning of attrition issues happened after the first bowl win...so after two seasons. Using that from the beginning wasn’t possible. Our interesting conversations were the result of you worshipping at the Church of This Means That and me being a Protestant. I wait to be right and by the time truth = FACT? I’m on board and we’re all RIGHT at the same time. Those who seek more validation than guessing right are bound for sore disappointment in I Told You So threads.
 
#311
#311
butchna said:
I was here! My point was that many posters disregard the bowls but were on record that WHEN he lost those bowls he should immediately be fired. So they weren’t a factor but they were.
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The "you" in my post wasn't pointed at you but a collective you (as in the fanbase). Sorry for the confusion.
 
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#312
#312
butchna said:
His ideas on S&C were on point before he caved on Lawson, tho I remember he wasn’t a sacred cow for you. His game management has to be weighed against his disparity in talent when he first took the job and it was eventually found to be lacking tho he out coached Spurrier and his vastly superior squad in his first season...so the red flags had to wait. The beginning of attrition issues happened after the first bowl win...so after two seasons. Using that from the beginning wasn’t possible. Our interesting conversations were the result of you worshipping at the Church of This Means That and me being a Protestant. I wait to be right and by the time truth = FACT? I’m on board and we’re all RIGHT at the same time. Those who seek more validation than guessing right are bound for sore disappointment in I Told You So threads.
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OK. You asked for it.

I told you so...

PS- lightweight OL's that can neither outquick nor out leverage SEC DL's... was never an "on point" plan for S&C.
 
#313
#313
sjt18 said:
OK. You asked for it.

I told you so...

PS- lightweight OL's that can neither outquick nor out leverage SEC DL's... was never an "on point" plan for S&C.
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Always saw that as failure in recruiting more talented big uglies instead of preference. Liked the recruitment of Chance Hall and Jack Jones, but time ruled against that. Don’t see where LAWSON failed those players. More nature and the scheme.
 
#318
#318
Butch had his shot at success at UT, but didn’t pull it off. His pedigree pointed to his failure. Not really knowing about his locker room, his super conservative nature along with getting rid of a strength coach due to the advice of the players, and how he just kept making poor decisions, it’s like he was trying to fail.
 
#319
#319
It's been a mess since Fulmer was terminated. One failure after another. Speaking for myself, it's just been a feeling of frustration that's been building with each hire they've made.

I was at an outdoor restaurant and the TV near our table was replaying the UT/Bama game and the date was 2012. Then I see Dooley on his crutches and it just reminded me how long we've been in this mess and wandering in the wilderness.

Feelings toward butch, dooley and kiffin are all justified for their job performance, but it's the group of folks that made these miserable hires that really deserve the anger.
 
#320
#320
Longsufferingvol said:
Go ahead and shoot me, but I just don't get it.
Yes, Butch was in over his head. Yes, his in-game decisions were often bad. And yes, his decisions lost us a few big games.
But ... But ... But he also got us back into the spotlight. We were ranked in the Top 10 and beat Georgia and Florida in 2016. Then 2017 happened and people forgot all that came before. I was glad to see Butch go, but I have no animosity toward the guy. He was just a transition guy. So why does everyone seem to despise him so much?
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Without reading through the replies...simple inclusion principle. It is just the same as the desire to be a part of something. Thinks bandwagon and fads.


Should CBJ get another head coaching job and have success much of the hate will turn to fond remembrance by some who spewed pure hatred for the guy.


He was in over his head but many of the things that he is derided for he would be loved for had he made a couple of better decisions regarding the OC and DC positions.
 
#321
#321
Longsufferingvol said:
Go ahead and shoot me, but I just don't get it.
Yes, Butch was in over his head. Yes, his in-game decisions were often bad. And yes, his decisions lost us a few big games.
But ... But ... But he also got us back into the spotlight. We were ranked in the Top 10 and beat Georgia and Florida in 2016. Then 2017 happened and people forgot all that came before. I was glad to see Butch go, but I have no animosity toward the guy. He was just a transition guy. So why does everyone seem to despise him so much?
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Watch what he is doing now and your Animus should grow.
 
#323
#323
GetYouSomeofThat said:
Without reading through the replies...simple inclusion principle. It is just the same as the desire to be a part of something. Thinks bandwagon and fads.


Should CBJ get another head coaching job and have success much of the hate will turn to fond remembrance by some who spewed pure hatred for the guy.


He was in over his head but many of the things that he is derided for he would be loved for had he made a couple of better decisions regarding the OC and DC positions.
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No way. That hate train is easily justified.

How could he possibly live down the victory cigar in 2018? Are you serious? He is a bastard.
 
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#324
#324
butchna said:
So where’d you get the QUOTE?
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Here is Etienne's quote: "Honestly, I didn’t. I grew up a Tennessee Volunteer fan,” Etienne said on Saturday during his latest CFP media availability. "

Trevor's quote: "I was a Tennessee fan. My mom’s family is from Tennessee. So growing up that’s the only thing I really knew was Tennessee football,” Lawrence said. “Watch them all the time. I think when I got middle school or high school kind of started just I guess when I got offers and stuff I kind of quit being a fan.”


A final thought on why UT lost them: "Similar to Etienne’s comment, Lawrence noted that once he started visiting Butch Jones’ Tennessee program during his recruitment, his interest in the Volunteer program began to wane."

I hope this helps, it wasn't hard to find.

Go Vols!
 
#325
#325
FlyFishnVol said:
Here is Etienne's quote: "Honestly, I didn’t. I grew up a Tennessee Volunteer fan,” Etienne said on Saturday during his latest CFP media availability. "

Trevor's quote: "I was a Tennessee fan. My mom’s family is from Tennessee. So growing up that’s the only thing I really knew was Tennessee football,” Lawrence said. “Watch them all the time. I think when I got middle school or high school kind of started just I guess when I got offers and stuff I kind of quit being a fan.”


A final thought on why UT lost them: "Similar to Etienne’s comment, Lawrence noted that once he started visiting Butch Jones’ Tennessee program during his recruitment, his interest in the Volunteer program began to wane."

I hope this helps, it wasn't hard to find.

Go Vols!
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Didn’t see where the “Thanks but no thanks” quote from Butch happened...so it didn’t help.
 
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