I am sure this ends well for Iran...

#202
#202
whodeycin85 said:
That chart doesn't include the defense spending of 2% of GDP correct? That's not part of the common budget. I wanna make sure I understand.
Click to expand...

Lol, the 2% of GDP is not for funding NATO, its what NATO members agreed was the target that each member would spend on their own individual defense budgets.

Again, 'reading', and 'reading for comprehension'.
 
#204
#204
whodeycin85 said:
Why?
Click to expand...
We are far and away, the most developed nation in the world. Have been for a long time. We have the largest and strongest economy in the world. Yes, for a long time. We have the strongest military, and it's not even close, in the world. There were times when others have had a little edge in some specific areas, but we have always persevered with technology and numbers when necessary. It's always been in our best interest to help countries who practice democracy in their form of government. Looking at the geographic makeup of NATO, it's prudent strategically to be the leader of security. Ever heard of the Soviet Union? Do you know why NATO was created?

It's not an either/or issue in regards to our resources. What do you think the ratio is of what we spend in our country to what we spend outside of US? We can do both, rather easily. That's our role. We are the super power
 
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#205
#205
BeardedVol said:
Lol, the 2% of GDP is not for funding NATO, its what NATO members agreed was the target that each member would spend on their own individual defense budgets.

Again, 'reading', and 'reading for comprehension'.
Click to expand...
So none of our 2% goes to any other country correct or is part the allied defense funding controls by NATO?
 
#206
#206
BernardKingGOAT said:
We are far and away, the most developed nation in the world. Have been for a long time. We have the largest and strongest economy in the world. Yes, for a long time. We have the strongest military, and it's not even close, in the world. There was a time when others have had a little edge in some specific areas, but we have always persevered with technology and numbers when necessary. It's always been in our best interest to help countries who practice democracy in their form of government. Looking at the geographic makeup of NATO, it's prudent strategically to be the leader of security. Ever heard of the Soviet Union? Do you know why NATO was created?

It's not an either/or issue in regards to our resources. What do you think the ratio is of what we spend in our country to what we spend outside of US? We can do both, rather easily. That's our role. We are the super power
Click to expand...
Totally makes sense..I just disagree with it. I don't believe the cost outweighs the benefits. But I respect your reasoning.
 
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#211
#211
whodeycin85 said:
So none of our 2% goes to any other country correct or is part the allied defense funding controls by NATO?
Click to expand...

For better or worse, our defense spending levels have nothing to do with how much any other NATO member spends on their own defense, or doesn't.

The cost of maintaining 800 military bases, and 11 carrier groups, etc. aren't affected by Poland increasing defense spending to 4+% of their GDP.

1721350284566.png
 
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#212
#212
@BeardedVol The chart you listed on the last page only starts at March of this year and is estimated through December. I don't think it accurately reflects the past 10-20 years.
I'm pretty certain several of those countries only started getting serious about their NATO dues after Putin invaded Ukraine.
BeardedVol said:
Since the NATO members agreed on the formula, which was revisited in 2019, it would seem that they disagree with your assessment.
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Thank you Trump
The US used to pay more than 22% of these running costs.

But a new payment formula was agreed in 2019 to address complaints by the Trump administration about the burden to the US of supporting the alliance. How much do Nato members spend on defence?
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Even the 2% GDP military spending is only just now being taken serious. I think in 2023 only 11 countries met the 2%GDP threshold and around 20 are on track to make it this year.

I think that is the crux of what @whodeycin85 has been getting at. As I understand it, GDP/GNI on separate tables is what seperates salaries/pensions from the actual armaments. I don't think it is too far fetched to suggest that countries that continual failed to meet their 2% GDP threshold for years are taking our armaments for granted.

I'm attaching a Nato Defense Expenditure PDF (2013 - 2024) if anyone has more time than me to break it down.
 

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#213
#213
MemphisVol77 said:
@BeardedVol The chart you listed on the last page only starts at March of this year and is estimated through December. I don't think it accurately reflects the past 10-20 years.
I'm pretty certain several of those countries only started getting serious about their NATO dues after Putin invaded Ukraine.

Thank you Trump

Even the 2% GDP military spending is only just now being taken serious. I think in 2023 only 11 countries met the 2%GDP threshold and around 20 are on track to make it this year.

I think that is the crux of what @whodeycin85 has been getting at. As I understand it, GDP/GNI on separate tables is what seperates salaries/pensions from the actual armaments. I don't think it is too far fetched to suggest that countries that continual failed to meet their 2% GDP threshold for years are taking our armaments for granted.

I'm attaching a Nato Defense Expenditure PDF (2013 - 2024) if anyone has more time than me to break it down.
Click to expand...
GNI is adjusted every year for each member nation, the formula itself was last updated in 2019, I'm sure you can find the historical percentages if you use the wayback machine.

In the last reformulation, our obligation dropped from 22% to just below 16% on par with Germany, in spite of having a GNI 5x that of Germany.

NATO members hitting their 2% defense spending goals have zero bearing on NATO common funding, or US defense spending.

Like I said, Poland increasing their defense spending to 5% of GDP by 2025, will not cause us to decrease our defense spending, especially considering the broad range of what is considered "defense spending" under NATO guidelines.
 
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#216
#216
BeardedVol said:
For better or worse, our defense spending levels have nothing to do with how much any other NATO member spends on their own defense, or doesn't.

The cost of maintaining 800 military bases, and 11 carrier groups, etc. aren't affected by Poland increasing defense spending to 4+% of their GDP.

View attachment 659972
Click to expand...
What kind of wicked and deceptive chart is this? Defense spending with respect to GDP is a BS statistic.
 
#218
#218
Rasputin_Vol said:
What kind of wicked and deceptive chart is this? Defense spending with respect to GDP is a BS statistic.
Click to expand...

Defense spending as a portion of GDP by NATO members is what Trump, and several in this thread have been crying about.

I agree though, it's largely irrelevant given the broadness of NATO defense spending guidelines, and is just a political canard seized upon by people who want to feign isolationism because their candidate of choice has done so.
 
#219
#219
Rasputin_Vol said:
That chart isn't helping your case. The US putting in 15% is equal to 15 or so countries combined.
Click to expand...

Feel free to look up the GNI of any member state and match it to their percentage obligation.

For reference, US GNI is just short of 26 trillion, and we're obligated for ~16%

Germany is also obligated for ~16%, with a GNI of only 5 trillion.
 
#222
#222
SpaceCoastVol said:
Seriously? I'll speak slowly for you: When errybody else is only paying 2% or less. If we all pay the same percentage, We are STILL putting more $$ in the coffers...

But you know this... don't you?
Click to expand...

So you believe that US defence spending is dependent on NATO members meeting their 2% defense spending goals?

You want to show me any evidence whatsoever of this correlation that you believe exists?

Since our NATO allies are at least collectively hitting 2%...

www.voanews.com

NATO’s European Allies Collectively at 2% GDP Defense Spending for 1st Time Ever

Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg says, ‘It is in the national security interest of the United States to have a strong NATO’
www.voanews.com www.voanews.com
...will we suddenly decrease our defense budget?

How much will we decrease it by?

Which weapons platforms will we drop or decrease the purchase of?
 
#223
#223
BeardedVol said:
So you believe that US defence spending is dependent on NATO members meeting their 2% defense spending goals?

You want to show me any evidence whatsoever of this correlation that you believe exists?

Since our NATO allies are at least collectively hitting 2%...

www.voanews.com

NATO’s European Allies Collectively at 2% GDP Defense Spending for 1st Time Ever

Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg says, ‘It is in the national security interest of the United States to have a strong NATO’
www.voanews.com www.voanews.com
...will we suddenly decrease our defense budget?

How much will we decrease it by?

Which weapons platforms will we drop or decrease the purchase of?
Click to expand...
These people advocate a global government. Fine. Let's give it to them. They pay their fair share or their defense is up to them. I'll bet they pry open their wallets and find the cash. WE WILL STILL PAY MORE than ANYONE.

I'm not sure why you believe their defense is OUR problem.
 
#224
#224
BeardedVol said:
For better or worse, our defense spending levels have nothing to do with how much any other NATO member spends on their own defense, or doesn't.

The cost of maintaining 800 military bases, and 11 carrier groups, etc. aren't affected by Poland increasing defense spending to 4+% of their GDP.

View attachment 659972
Click to expand...
If Europe spent more of its budget on its own defense, would the US need as many bases in Europe though? 🤔
 
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#225
#225
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