Holly and “the impossible to follow a legend” myth

#1
madtownvol

madtownvol

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#1
It is time for some clear eyed reflection on Holly’s situation. As we all know, there is a narrative that Holly was doomed from the outset because it simply "impossible to follow a legend."

This myth most directly traces back to UCLA’s John Wooden who retired after winning a 10th NC in 12 years (and being in the final four the other two) and then UCLA basketball quickly trended downward. The idea is that fan expectations are so high after following a legend that the next coach can never measure up and hence is doomed.

However, the John Wooden scenario is not what Holly faced at all. Health issues and other extraneous circumstances aside, the objective record of Pat’s last four years show that the program had slipped from being a perennial final four team:

2008-2009
22-11; 4th in SEC; Lost in first round of NCAA

2009-2010
32-3 SEC regular season title and SEC conference tournament champ; lost in sweet 16

2010-2011
34-3; SEC regular season title and SEC conference tournament champ; list in elite 8

2011-2012
27-9; 2nd in SEC conference and SEC conference tournament champ; lost in elite 8

(CPS's early onset dementia diagnosis announced to public)

2012-2013

Holly became head coach and the team had lost 5 starters to graduation; it was predicted to be a major rebuilding year. How did she do?

27-8; SEC regular season title; lost in elite 8

Warlick was named Spalding Maggie Dixon National Rookie Coach of the Year and SEC Coach of the Year

2013-2014
29-6; 2nd in SEC conference and SEC conference tournament champ; lost in sweet 16

2014-2015
30-6; tied for SEC regular season champ; lost in elite 8 (this record is doubly impressive because team leader Izzy Harrison was lost to an ACL injury early in the season)

2015-2016
22-14; 7th in conference; lost in elite 8

On this board, Holly had some vociferous critics from the very beginning of her tenure (and you know who you are). As we can see, those criticisms were unwarranted based on the team's performance during Holly's first 3 seasons. And importantly, critics of Holly were in a minority. She won coach of the year awards and garnered accolades from the press. Ironically, the "impossible to follow a legend" myth worked in her favor (i.e., wow look how well she is doing in the impossible job of following a legend. AMAZING!.)

During the 2015-2016 season, critical voices (and warning signs) started to loom larger. However, the team's improbable run to the elite 8, led by Diamond DeShields playing out of her mind, largely quelled those concerns.

And as we know, the team continued trending downward from the 2015-2016 season. Holly’s might have been fired at the end of her 6th season if she had not had two high rank recruiting classes joining the program.

Bottom line:

If Holly been able to keep the LVs competing for SEC titles and making it to the Sweet 16 or elite 8, along with her recruiting successes, she would be a very secure and highly regarded coach. Sure, she would have critics on this board who would never, ever wanted her to be hired but the majority of fans and sports press would have been very pro-Holly.

She was not finished by unrealistic Pat Summit, in her prime, level expectations that the LVs had to win an NC or make it to the final four every season. Holly was not able to maintain the very standards she had set in her first 4 seasons as HC and the program fell into the mid-tier of women’s college basketball. Following a legend had nothing to do with the LV's coaching change.
 
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#3
#3
I agree. I hate seeing those comments saying it was impossible to follow Summitt. It's such an easy thing to say with no real substance--Holly had all the benefits in the world coaching here, but she failed to utilize them effectively. She also sat on the bench beside Summitt for over 20 years...few in the world of WCBB had that privilege...and what does she have to show for it?
I also find some of the former players' statements to be very telling, particularly Mercedes Russell's. "Having the hardest job in WCBB" does NOT excuse a poor performance. I don't want to get off on a rant, but that statement is very telling of a former #1 recruit who, imo, vastly underachieved during her time at UT.
Lastly, what's very damning for Warlick about the information you provided is the fact that the further removed Warlick's players were from Summitt herself, the poorer they performed. That 2015 team was the last team directly tied in some way to Summitt, and they had an admirable season with the loss of Harrison. As the seasons progressed under Warlick and players lost the heritage of Summitt, they played and performed much more poorly. These last few years have been all Warlick, and look how they performed. I have no hesitation in saying that the players themselves (and the brief coaching they received from Summitt) gave Warlick those good early results--Warlick really had nothing to do with it.
 
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#4
#4
Tennessee fans are upset when a lady basketball team doesnt make the final four or elite eight.......thanks Pat!

Id be willing to bet most schools in the south cant name their coach and starting 5.
 
#7
#7
Izzy Harrison's injury occurred in Feb. of her senior year, not early. She played over half the season--21 games.

But, yes, Warlick was gifted a generous amount of time along with some of the finest facilities in addition to some of the most coveted athletes not to mention getting the ultra-best tutelage from the all-time best teacher/coach in the game. She failed. We move on.
 
#9
#9
Putbacks said:
Izzy Harrison's injury occurred in Feb. of her senior year, not early. She played over half the season--21 games.

But, yes, Warlick was gifted a generous amount of time along with some of the finest facilities in addition to some of the most coveted athletes not to mention getting the ultra-best tutelage from the all-time best teacher/coach in the game. She failed. We move on.
Click to expand...

To get into the details, Izzy suffered an knee injury early in the season and missed several games before her season ending ACL:

Harrison

The LVs did not really have a fully healthy Harrison during the season and her injury on Feb. 15, left the LVs with 4 regular season conference games, 3 SEC tournament games (where they lost in the final to USC) and the NCAA tournament. Kind of a tough stretch to be without your star player.

I agree its time to move on. But the fact remains that Holly;s problem was not following a legend but an inability to maintain her own standards of success.
 
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#11
#11
volfannbama said:
Pats a legend, following a legend is not optimal and widely known as difficult to do.

Holly accomplishment get her an extension at 90% of schools in the country, at Tennessee they get you fired.
Click to expand...

You are COMPETELY ignoring the stats. Her first 3 years were really good and she was widely celebrated (NOT FIRED!).

Holly's last three years have been a downward spiral to becoming a bubble team who loses in the first round and finished in the lower half of the SEC conference and gets blown out by top 10 teams. Do you really believe that this last season would have an earned an extension at 90% of the schools in the country or more relevantly, at any school with top 10 aspirations?
 
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#12
#12
madtownvol said:
You are COMPETELY ignoring the stats. Her first 3 years were really good and she was widely celebrated (NOT FIRED!).

Holly's last three years have been a downward spiral to becoming a bubble team who loses in the first round and finished in the lower half of the SEC conference and gets blown out by top 10 teams. Do you really believe that this last season would have an earned an extension at 90% of the schools in the country or more relevantly, at any school with top 10 aspirations?
Click to expand...
Yes, her first.3 years would have built some equity at most school.
 
#15
#15
madtownvol said:
It is time for some clear eyed reflection on Holly’s situation. As we all know, there is a narrative that Holly was doomed from the outset because it simply "impossible to follow a legend."

This myth most directly traces back to UCLA’s John Wooden who retired after winning a 10th NC in 12 years (and being in the final four the other two) and then UCLA basketball quickly trended downward. The idea is that fan expectations are so high after following a legend that the next coach can never measure up and hence is doomed.

However, the John Wooden scenario is not what Holly faced at all. Health issues and other extraneous circumstances aside, the objective record of Pat’s last four years show that the program had slipped from being a perennial final four team:

2008-2009
22-11; 4th in SEC; Lost in first round of NCAA

2009-2010
32-3 SEC regular season title and SEC conference tournament champ; lost in sweet 16

2010-2011
34-3; SEC regular season title and SEC conference tournament champ; list in elite 8

2011-2012
27-9; 2nd in SEC conference and SEC conference tournament champ; lost in elite 8

(CPS's early onset dementia diagnosis announced to public)

2012-2013

Holly became head coach and the team had lost 5 starters to graduation; it was predicted to be a major rebuilding year. How did she do?

27-8; SEC regular season title; lost in elite 8

Warlick was named Spalding Maggie Dixon National Rookie Coach of the Year and SEC Coach of the Year

2013-2014
29-6; 2nd in SEC conference and SEC conference tournament champ; lost in sweet 16

2014-2015
30-6; tied for SEC regular season champ; lost in elite 8 (this record is doubly impressive because team leader Izzy Harrison was lost to an ACL injury early in the season)

2015-2016
22-14; 7th in conference; lost in elite 8

On this board, Holly had some vociferous critics from the very beginning of her tenure (and you know who you are). As we can see, those criticisms were unwarranted based on the team's performance during Holly's first 3 seasons. And importantly, critics of Holly were in a minority. She won coach of the year awards and garnered accolades from the press. Ironically, the "impossible to follow a legend" myth worked in her favor (i.e., wow look how well she is doing in the impossible job of following a legend. AMAZING!.)

During the 2015-2016 season, critical voices (and warning signs) started to loom larger. However, the team's improbable run to the elite 8, led by Diamond DeShields playing out of her mind, largely quelled those concerns.

And as we know, the team continued trending downward from the 2015-2016 season. Holly’s might have been fired at the end of her 6th season if she had not had two high rank recruiting classes joining the program.

Bottom line:

If Holly been able to keep the LVs competing for SEC titles and making it to the Sweet 16 or elite 8, along with her recruiting successes, she would be a very secure and highly regarded coach. Sure, she would have critics on this board who would never, ever wanted her to be hired but the majority of fans and sports press would have been very pro-Holly.

She was not finished by unrealistic Pat Summit, in her prime, level expectations that the LVs had to win an NC or make it to the final four every season. Holly was not able to maintain the very standards she had set in her first 4 seasons as HC and the program fell into the mid-tier of women’s college basketball. Following a legend had nothing to do with the LV's coaching change.
Click to expand...
Those years she was playing with teams mostly put together by Pat (see team culture, atmosphere, how they worked together)
 
#16
#16
“If I knew what was wrong I would fix it” She didn’t and therefore she didn’t

Get us a Coach
 
#17
#17
volfannbama said:
And most school would have been okay with the first.6.
Click to expand...

That sword swings both ways though. While it's true that expectations are higher at Tennessee than most schools, there's also a lot of built in advantages that most schools don't have...

1. The roster full of top 100/McDonald All-American players.

2. Our facilities are second to none in the country.

3. Fan support is second to none in the country.

4. Tennessee Womens Basketball is still a national brand that's recognized all over the country. We have a built in recruiting advantage that 99% of the other schools don't have.

This is one of the most coveted jobs in womens basketball in the entire country. Yes expectations are high and they should be. There are a LOT of advantages that come with coaching this program that the vast majority of other programs simply don't have.
 
#18
#18
volfannbama said:
And most school would have been okay with the first.6.
Click to expand...

We see you live in Bama so we will forgive what seems to be their ignorance rubbing off onto you, however Bama doesn't know who their women's basketball coach is because they are too busy with their sister wives and yelling Roll Tide at each passing car while waiting for nick Saban to come to the podium to talk about football. Yet still Holly managed to lose to that Bama team 5 straight times. So it wasn't unrealistic expectations that got Holly, it was her lack of coaching that did.
 
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#19
#19
LOL thanks madtown for once again taking a swing at the can't follow a legend myth. Tell you what, I'll take the next swing at "Title IX won't let him fire a woman without great consequences".

Well pointed out that Holly lived large off the legend the first few years when she had Pat's players and culture. She got brutally exposed, with the help of the incredibly ill-timed Diamond fiasco, as soon as the program became wholly owned by her.

Underlying the lazy can't follow legend trope is another false myth that the fans expected Final Four or natty every year. Simply not true, since as pointed out in the OP, that already was not happening for several years before the Holly handoff. All most of us wanted was to stay competitive and relevant in the national conversation, and to be a fun product to watch and support. That never happened.

My biggest question for the can't follow legend crowd has always been that if that's true, why in the world did we give the doomed from the start legend follower most of a decade to prove it true? Should have fired her at least by her 4th or 5th season when rapid decline set in and move on to the undoomed next coach.
 
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#20
#20
Aside from the rebuilding year of 2009 with one of the youngest teams she ever had, the program didn't slip much in Summitt's final four seasons. The only thing wrong with Summitt's last four seasons was that they didn't have an answer for Griner and kept drawing Baylor in the tournament. It is a challenge to follow a legend. The premise for this thread sucks.

Let's see how the next coach in at UConn deals with it...
 
#21
#21
So if the program hadn't slipped, fan expectations were unrealistically high, and it's a given that legends cannot be successfully followed, why in the world did we let things get in the terrible shape they are in now before we moved on to a coach free from legend following?

With benefit of hindsight, our expectations were probably more unrealistic during the Pat "slipping" years when we did actually still expect to be at least in the natty hunt every year. We never had that expectation for Holly though since it hadn't happened in a few years. Could say Pat had more trouble following her own legend once the game changed, more good players and teams were out there, and more schools were sinking big money into the game. Point is simply that fan expectations were already tamped down a bit when Holly took over.
 
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#22
#22
glv98 said:
So if the program hadn't slipped, fan expectations were unrealistically high, and it's a given that legends cannot be successfully followed, why in the world did we let things get in the terrible shape they are in now before we moved on to a coach free from legend following?
Click to expand...
Although the program was clearly starting to slip under Warlick's first few seasons, nobody fires a coach after making the Elite 8 in 3 of their first 4 seasons. The first year she could have realistically been replaced was after the 2016-17 season... You can reasonably argue that she was retained two years longer than she should have been but the athletic department has been under a lot of turmoil and women's basketball was not a top priority.
 
#23
#23
Whispers to Madtown... You left a t off of Summitt.

Y’all know I can’t help it. 🧡🤦🏼‍♀️
 
#24
#24
glv98 said:
So if the program hadn't slipped, fan expectations were unrealistically high, and it's a given that legends cannot be successfully followed, why in the world did we let things get in the terrible shape they are in now before we moved on to a coach free from legend following?

With benefit of hindsight, our expectations were probably more unrealistic during the Pat "slipping" years when we did actually still expect to be at least in the natty hunt every year. We never had that expectation for Holly though since it hadn't happened in a few years. Could say Pat had more trouble following her own legend once the game changed, more good players and teams were out there, and more schools were sinking big money into the game. Point is simply that fan expectations were already tamped down a bit when Holly took over.
Click to expand...
I don't think Pat ever had trouble with anything except beating UConn in the final four. If she had stayed healthy, I think we would still be adding championship trophies. She didn't just wake up one morning in 2011 with dementia. This had been impacting her for quite some time before her diagnosis.
 
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#25
#25
BowlBrother85 said:
I don't think Pat ever had trouble with anything except beating UConn in the final four. If she had stayed healthy, I think we would still be adding championship trophies. She didn't just wake up one morning in 2011 with dementia. This had been impacting her for quite some time before her diagnosis.
Click to expand...

I agree but I don’t think it’s crazy to think the game had passed her by to a degree. It isn’t a knock on Pat it happens to every coach
 
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