Help me out on rule interpretation from last week.

#1
GUNTERSVOL

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
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#1
While searching the rulebook for backup on OUR inbounds call for TD I came across this rule in the book that relates to last weeks play immediately after the overthrow in the endzone where Keaton went up grabbed the ball and while on the way to the ground got pushed out by two defenders. Is there a newer or superseding rule or an interpretation I am missing?

Approved Ruling 7-3-6

III. An inbounds airborne player receives a legal forward pass. While still in the air, he is tackled by an opponent and obviously held for a moment before being carried in any direction. He then lands inbounds or out of bounds with the ball. RULING: Completed pass. The ball is dead at the yard line where the receiver/interceptor was held in a manner that prevented him from immediately returning to the ground (Rule 4-1-3-p).

Here you see the catch in bounds with his momentum toward the checkerboards.....

1662903150811.png

Then the two guys push him out a few feet to the boundry as he is returning to the ground. Looks HELD to me... Notice the legs of the defender buckling from his weight. HELD? That is the question. Not just incidental contact.

1662903346284.png

Bad call or not? Talking heads lauded the defensive players for a headsup play, but what about the refs?
 
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#2
#2
Can’t tell by a still picture. Don’t specifically remember the play but the rule has gone for and against us in the past usually against florida. If I was a betting man, they did hold him up and push him out but we were so far ahead they didn’t care.
 
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#4
#4
It was more bang bang. I assume this rule is if you catch a guy in the air and carry him out of bounds. Basically has to be egregious. JMO.
A few years ago there was a rule about "if a player would have come down in bounds" but I thought they did away with it.
 
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#5
#5
That's the difference between college and the NFL. In college a defender can knock the receiver out of bounds while still in the air, and it is an incomplete pass. In the NFL, if the refs deem the player would have landed in bounds, but got knocked out of bounds while in the air, it is ruled a completed pass.
 
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#6
#6
GUNTERSVOL said:
While searching the rulebook for backup on OUR inbounds call for TD I came across this rule in the book that relates to last weeks play immediately after the overthrow in the endzone where Keaton went up grabbed the ball and while on the way to the ground got pushed out by two defenders. Is there a newer or superseding rule or an interpretation I am missing?

Approved Ruling 7-3-6

III. An inbounds airborne player receives a legal forward pass. While still in the air, he is tackled by an opponent and obviously held for a moment before being carried in any direction. He then lands inbounds or out of bounds with the ball. RULING: Completed pass. The ball is dead at the yard line where the receiver/interceptor was held in a manner that prevented him from immediately returning to the ground (Rule 4-1-3-p).

Here you see the catch in bounds with his momentum toward the checkerboards.....

View attachment 488985

Then the two guys push him out a few feet to the boundry as he is returning to the ground. Looks HELD to me... Not just incidental contact.

View attachment 488988

Bad call or not? Talking heads lauded the defensive players for a headsup play, but what about the refs?
Click to expand...
I thought the same thing. I was under the impression that if you caught the ball in bounds in the air, you couldn’t be pushed out of bounds before your feet touch.
 
#7
#7
ftsandersvol said:
That's the difference between college and the NFL. In college a defender can knock the receiver out of bounds while still in the air, and it is an incomplete pass. In the NFL, if the refs deem the player would have landed in bounds, but got knocked out of bounds while in the air, it is ruled a completed pass.
Click to expand...
Not anymore in the NFL. They thankfully dropped that rule a few years ago. A defender can force you out of bounds while in the air. Wherever you touch ground is the spot, regardless of how you got there.
 
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#8
#8
ZZ13 said:
Not anymore in the NFL. They thankfully dropped that rule a few years ago. A defender can force you out of bounds while in the air. Wherever you touch ground is the spot, regardless of how you got there.
Click to expand...

I had heard that on NFL broadcasts, Won't look at any other rulebook to avoid confusion, But like all the different rules, one foot vs two feet, etc., I posted the ruling in the book that the ref's were supposed to be using yesterday, but it is a couple of years old. I will think they blew the call till somebody can provide alternate NCAA rulings, or someone shows video evidence that he was not stopped from returning to the ground inbounds by being HELD. Look at that second screen shot or go back and slo mo the entire replay at 2:38 of the 3rd quarter.
 
#9
#9
ftsandersvol said:
That's the difference between college and the NFL. In college a defender can knock the receiver out of bounds while still in the air, and it is an incomplete pass. In the NFL, if the refs deem the player would have landed in bounds, but got knocked out of bounds while in the air, it is ruled a completed pass.
Click to expand...

How do you interpret that from the ruling I have just up this page from the NCAA rulebook?
 
#10
#10
GUNTERSVOL said:
How do you interpret that from the ruling I have just up this page from the NCAA rulebook?
Click to expand...
There’s a difference between knocked out of bounds and getting carried out of bounds. That play was a result of getting hit while in the air.
 
#11
#11
GAVol said:
There’s a difference between knocked out of bounds and getting carried out of bounds. That play was a result of getting hit while in the air.
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yz
Once again, the rules interpretation right in the book says....
. The ball is dead at the yard line where the receiver/interceptor was held in a manner that prevented him from immediately returning to the ground

Was he or was he not prevented from immediately going to the ground below where he completed the catch?

And the first defender was literally under him buckling from his weight when the second defender joined in the effort to push him across the boundry. I don't see how the refs could read the NCAA rulebook and make that call. Guess they thought they were in the NFL where that is allowed by rule per sources here.
 
#13
#13
GUNTERSVOL said:
While searching the rulebook for backup on OUR inbounds call for TD I came across this rule in the book that relates to last weeks play immediately after the overthrow in the endzone where Keaton went up grabbed the ball and while on the way to the ground got pushed out by two defenders. Is there a newer or superseding rule or an interpretation I am missing?

Approved Ruling 7-3-6

III. An inbounds airborne player receives a legal forward pass. While still in the air, he is tackled by an opponent and obviously held for a moment before being carried in any direction. He then lands inbounds or out of bounds with the ball. RULING: Completed pass. The ball is dead at the yard line where the receiver/interceptor was held in a manner that prevented him from immediately returning to the ground (Rule 4-1-3-p).

Here you see the catch in bounds with his momentum toward the checkerboards.....

View attachment 488985

Then the two guys push him out a few feet to the boundry as he is returning to the ground. Looks HELD to me... Notice the legs of the defender buckling from his weight. HELD? That is the question. Not just incidental contact.

View attachment 488988

Bad call or not? Talking heads lauded the defensive players for a headsup play, but what about the refs?
Click to expand...
The way I saw it is, the receiver with up and caught the ball and while falling to th ground, he fell on one, maybe both, of the defenders and hit the ground out of bounds. I think the call was correct. He did not touch the ground inbounds and therefore was out of bounds.
 
#14
#14
Is that a current rule book? I believe they changed that rule this year. It used to be if a receiver was forced out when they would of landed in they would consider it a catch. The rules committee determined it was too much of a judgment call and removed it.
 
#15
#15
GUNTERSVOL said:
While searching the rulebook for backup on OUR inbounds call for TD I came across this rule in the book that relates to last weeks play immediately after the overthrow in the endzone where Keaton went up grabbed the ball and while on the way to the ground got pushed out by two defenders. Is there a newer or superseding rule or an interpretation I am missing?

Approved Ruling 7-3-6

III. An inbounds airborne player receives a legal forward pass. While still in the air, he is tackled by an opponent and obviously held for a moment before being carried in any direction. He then lands inbounds or out of bounds with the ball. RULING: Completed pass. The ball is dead at the yard line where the receiver/interceptor was held in a manner that prevented him from immediately returning to the ground (Rule 4-1-3-p).

Here you see the catch in bounds with his momentum toward the checkerboards.....

View attachment 488985

Then the two guys push him out a few feet to the boundry as he is returning to the ground. Looks HELD to me... Notice the legs of the defender buckling from his weight. HELD? That is the question. Not just incidental contact.

View attachment 488988

Bad call or not? Talking heads lauded the defensive players for a headsup play, but what about the refs?[/QUOTE

I have officiated for 19 seasons in high school ball and can tell you the rule for NFHS and I assume it is the same in NCAA because most rules are.
If you push or carry a airborne receiver or db who has intercepted the ball out of bounds it counts as incomplete. This rule changed n the last couple of years and used to be exactly what you listed above.
It is such a rare occurrence and so hard to convince someone where a player would have landed that the rule made no sense at all. Hope this helped
Click to expand...
 
#17
#17
GUNTERSVOL said:
How do you interpret that from the ruling I have just up this page from the NCAA rulebook?
Click to expand...

I didn’t. That’s been the rule forever unless it has changed without me knowing. But I’ve never seen any ref grant a completion by where the player might come down.
 
#19
#19
VOLINVONORE said:
The way I saw it is, the receiver with up and caught the ball and while falling to th ground, he fell on one, maybe both, of the defenders and hit the ground out of bounds. I think the call was correct. He did not touch the ground inbounds and therefore was out of bounds.
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Then why leave the ruling in my original post in the book? Look at the two screenshots (or better yet the replay) and define where he would have immediately returned to the ground in the first shot, and where he did come to ground with not one but two guys holding him up and pushing him across the line. In fact, look at how far away 10 was at the point of the catch and tell me how he had the ability to get his shoulder under the receiver's gut anywhere close to immediately AT THE SIDELINE without him being held off the ground by the original defender. Gravity was still in play. Heck he was upright and had one foot in the white checker at the point of the catch. I don't think this is where official's applied judgement to a play involving the rule, I don't think they considered it at all.

1662978925301.png
 
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#20
#20


I appreciate your reply, and wanted to eliminate the chance of a rule change from the old book I had downloaded, thus here is the ruling in the 2022 NCAA rulebook. The one I want our officials to apply.

III. An inbounds airborne player receives a legal forward pass. While still in the air, he is tackled by an opponent and obviously held for a moment before being carried in any direction. He then lands inbounds or out of bounds with the ball. RULING: Completed pass. The ball is dead at the yard line where the receiver/interceptor was held in a manner that prevented him from immediately returning to the ground (Rule 4-1-3-p).

So, with this being the current ruling in the NCAA book, and the video evidence supplied or available, did these NCAA officials miss the call? The pictures also show they were in perfect position to make the call. I don't see how he could not have been judged to not have been prevented from returning to the ground inbounds immediately when 10 had to close ground to contact him at all and both end up about 5 yards from the defender's position when the receiver gained possession.

I will add a couple of different perspectives of where the receiver would have immediately landed and IF he was held in the defined manner. Do you see anything showing the receivers or original defenders' momentum that would carry them to the sideline?

1662985244222.png



1662985327189.png
 
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#21
#21
Ashevillevol said:
I thought the same thing. I was under the impression that if you caught the ball in bounds in the air, you couldn’t be pushed out of bounds before your feet touch.
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That rule changed awhile ago.and a dangerous rule imo. Football is a contact sport I get it but if you gonna baby the QB then how in the world are you letting people do that. I also never understood what a defenseless player is on the football field. Last I checked all 22 players on the field playing know they can be hit at any time and it's on them to keep their guard up.
 
#22
#22
GUNTERSVOL said:
I appreciate your reply, and wanted to eliminate the chance of a rule change from the old book I had downloaded, thus here is the ruling in the 2022 NCAA rulebook. The one I want our officials to apply.

III. An inbounds airborne player receives a legal forward pass. While still in the air, he is tackled by an opponent and obviously held for a moment before being carried in any direction. He then lands inbounds or out of bounds with the ball. RULING: Completed pass. The ball is dead at the yard line where the receiver/interceptor was held in a manner that prevented him from immediately returning to the ground (Rule 4-1-3-p).

So, with this being the current ruling in the NCAA book, and the video evidence supplied or available, did these NCAA officials miss the call? The pictures also show they were in perfect position to make the call. I don't see how he could not have been judged to not have been prevented from returning to the ground inbounds immediately when 10 had to close ground to contact him at all and both end up about 5 yards from the defender's position when the receiver gained possession.

I will add a couple of different perspectives of where the receiver would have immediately landed and IF he was held in the defined manner. Do you see anything showing the receivers or original defenders' momentum that would carry them to the sideline?

View attachment 489324



View attachment 489325
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I would need to see it live again and will watch it once I get off but I believe what is missing is being obviously held for a moment. I think if it is all in one motion they can push him as far as possible, if they hold him to stop his return to the ground then this rule come into play. Not saying they did not hold him in the air without seeing it again but that would be the only reason it would have not been called. I actually like this rule because it gives you a chance to call on egregious plays but also let’s the defense push a airborne player
 
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#23
#23
Ref4Life said:
I would need to see it live again and will watch it once I get off but I believe what is missing is being obviously held for a moment. I think if it is all in one motion they can push him as far as possible, if they hold him to stop his return to the ground then this rule come into play. Not saying they did not hold him in the air without seeing it again but that would be the only reason it would have not been called. I actually like this rule because it gives you a chance to call on egregious plays but also let’s the defense push a airborne player
Click to expand...

Yep, the rule needs to be in place otherwise you could catch a guy on the midfield logo and carry him forwards to avoid a progress call and deposit him out of bounds. This was obviously not that, but he was held up in the air, prevented from immediately returning to the ground, and was carried towards the sideline (any direction per the ruling). Does this last screenshot do it for you to show him being held long enough for the second defender to close in from two checkerboards away, to arrive when the receiver's foot is clearly within inches of coming down in bounds, and the contact of the late arriving defender forcing him out after the original defender had started the change in receiver's direction. It is the timing and force of the second defender that makes it clear it was not the result of initial contact by the defender but him being shouldered (held) and then hammered by the second defender. The closing time for the second guy invokes the immediate element the ruling specifically includes. Great effort, not their responsibility to enforce the rule as written.

1662992296694.png


Edited to add one more... to show the impact of the second hit in the change of direction portion of the ruling. He was originally with the ball at the edge of the checkerboards and made contact with the ground at the following location...

1662994155601.png
 
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#24
#24
GUNTERSVOL said:
Yep, the rule needs to be in place otherwise you could catch a guy on the midfield logo and carry him forwards to avoid a progress call and deposit him out of bounds. This was obviously not that, but he was held up in the air, prevented from immediately returning to the ground, and was carried towards the sideline (any direction per the ruling). Does this last screenshot do it for you to show him being held long enough for the second defender to close in from two checkerboards away, to arrive when the receiver's foot is clearly within inches of coming down in bounds, and the contact of the late arriving defender forcing him out after the original defender had started the change in receiver's direction. It is the timing and force of the second defender that makes it clear it was not the result of initial contact by the defender but him being shouldered (held) and then hammered by the second defender. The closing time for the second guy invokes the immediate element the ruling specifically includes. Great effort, not their responsibility to enforce the rule as written.

View attachment 489354


Edited to add one more... to show the impact of the second hit in the change of direction portion of the ruling. He was originally with the ball at the edge of the checkerboards and made contact with the ground at the following location...

View attachment 489372
Click to expand...


What time in the game exactly is this? I want to watch it again. I have it recorded
 
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