Gun control debate (merged)

#27,377
#27,377
Thunder Good-Oil said:
There is no gray despite the BS that your AEP propaganda “charity” promotes.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It’s idiocy to suggest that this means a STATE is the same as PEOPLE with the right to keep and bear arms. “People” and “a free State” are both in that sentence - obviously they are not one and the same.
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Sure there is. Have you never read the '39 SC decision.
 
#27,378
#27,378
C-south said:
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson,

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson,

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson
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I bet at least half of those are bogus and not quotes from Jefferson at all.
 
#27,379
#27,379
C-south said:
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms just make sure they are limited to weapons that will be totally useless. "
- Thomas Jefferson,

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms, as long as they can only fire x in y amount of time."
- Thomas Jefferson,

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed with single shot muzzle loaded firearms."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Fyp according to Luth
 
#27,380
#27,380
luthervol said:
It struck me as funny.
But I don't know, what he did he say?
This???
"it is the great parent of science & of virtue: and that a nation will be great in both, always in proportion as it is free." "our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost."
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How do you feel about that second quote in your post?
 
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#27,381
#27,381
luthervol said:
Of course I never said that. Once again, I think it is the 3,257th time you guys claim I say or think something that I never said.

Here's what some of you obviously do not get: We can have the right to keep and bear arms and we can be an armed citizenry without being a gun crazed nation with a complete lack of rational and reasonable regulations and restrictions.

How many guns would need to be in the hands of the citizenry for you to consider it to be armed? I'm assuming you wont answer, unless I say "I'm assuming you wont answer".
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that's an easy one. As many as people want. Unlike you I don't try to tell others how they should live to make myself feel better.
 
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#27,382
#27,382
luthervol said:
That's simply stupid.
Shall "not be infringed" is 100% open for interpretation.

2ND AMENDMENT EXPLAINED – American Enlightenment Project.

Infringe refers to encroachment on a public or sovereign right – in other words, a right held collectively by the people as a sovereign body, like a State.
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a person is also a sovereign entity. we have our own specified rights beyond the collective or state.

that definition of infringement doesn't include any caveats for being acceptable. an encroachment is an encroachment.
 
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#27,383
#27,383
LouderVol said:
that's an easy one. As many as people want. Unlike you I don't try to tell others how they should live to make myself feel better.
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It seems like you are telling people who want to live in a society that is less gun crazed how to live to make yourself feel better.
 
#27,384
#27,384
85SugarVol said:
How do you feel about that second quote in your post?
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I think it's a great quote, but it requires an educated, intelligent, and thinking society. (which are truly the only attributes that will lead to a society's long term success)
 
#27,385
#27,385
luthervol said:
I think it's a great quote, but it requires an educated, intelligent, and thinking society. (which are truly the only attributes that will lead to a society's long term success)
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Jefferson attaches none of those qualifiers you list.

“our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.”

That’s the quote. I’m surprised you like it - it’s pretty black and white.
 
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#27,386
#27,386
85SugarVol said:
Jefferson attaches none of those qualifiers you list.

“our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.”

That’s the quote. I’m surprised you like it - it’s pretty black and white.
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I've never claimed some things are not relatively black and white. It actually lies on the black and white continuum. I would hope we would all agree that some things are much more black and white than others.
My position is that a whole lot of posters in the PF selectively see things as much more black and white than they actually are.

And freedom of the press is only one of the things on which our liberty depends. Absent the other components, freedom of the press is almost meaningless.
 
#27,387
#27,387
luthervol said:
It seems like you are telling people who want to live in a society that is less gun crazed how to live to make yourself feel better.
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I don't care if there are less guns or more, as long as the people who can legally own them (US citizens, not a violent criminal, and are +18), can get what they want/afford.

the same rule applies to the people in your post as applies to me. Their wants stop at the next person's wants. They can easily go off and create their own gun free society, but if you include the general population in there you are going to have to accept that there will be people who don't agree with you. Its one of the reasons I live in the south, and not somewhere where the anti-gun nuts rule.
 
#27,388
#27,388
luthervol said:
I've never claimed some things are not relatively black and white. It actually lies on the black and white continuum. I would hope we would all agree that some things are much more black and white than others.
My position is that a whole lot of posters in the PF selectively see things as much more black and white than they actually are.

And freedom of the press is only one of the things on which our liberty depends. Absent the other components, freedom of the press is almost meaningless.
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you see what you call the gun-nuts as extremely black and white, even after I pointed out a huge spectrum of gray beyond your limited definition. There are far more extreme positions when it comes to guns that what is presented here. you just have to ignore them because it doesn't fit into your definition.
 
#27,393
#27,393
First, the constitution was written in the freakin' 18th century. It's a wonderful document but anybody who thinks we as a country/society should
take an originalist view of it is crazy because the world--and the U.S.---is obviously massively different than it was in 1787.

Second, much if not most of the constitution is open to interpretation--and of course many current judicial decisions are merely interpretations of constitutional language that is vague or imprecise. The 2nd amendment has been interpreted differently by different courts--and make no mistake, it does put gun ownership in the context of local militias that don't exist and won't exist every again.

Third and most important, gun violence is a very serious practical problem in this country. Widespread gun ownership and lax regulations have
put the public at serious risk--as we see it every freakin' day witg many innocent people gunned down by individuals who, the day before their gun crimes, would have been described by the gun crazies as "responsible gun owners." There are far, far, far, too many guns in America, and far, far, far too many weird, maladjusted, mentally troubled people--no doubt millions of such people. That is a combination that accounts for the unconscionable amount of gun violence we see and read about every day. And yet we have conservatives and conservative politicians in American who are determined to not only
not address the problem but in fact to make it worse! They think /more/ people should have guns--which only goes to show in high relief how insane and
irresponsible the political right is in America. These are the same old white men who pretend to weep about abortion. Sickening hypocrisy. Apparently, not enough of their constituents have yet been killed in mass shootings.

As I've said, I've lived in Japan for a couple of years. It was nice to walk the streets of Tokyo knowing that, if I bumped into or had a disagreement with somebody, he wasn't going to pull out a gun and shoot me. Or that I wasn't going to be shot while buying a bag of rice in a grocer. One of the first questions I got asked by my new Japanese colleagues when I got to Tokyo--true story--was whether I owned a gun. It was embarrassing. Of course part of the problem is that the U.S. is a big country with an antithetical society--meaning we have two societies, really, with opposing backgrounds, education levels, life experiences, etc. Until we start bridging that divide--on guns and many other issues--this country will suffer.
 
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#27,399
#27,399
turbovol said:
First, the constitution was written in the freakin' 18th century. It's a wonderful document but anybody who thinks we as a country/society should
take an originalist view of it is crazy because the world--and the U.S.---is obviously massively different than it was in 1787.

Second, much if not most of the constitution is open to interpretation--and of course many current judicial decisions are merely interpretations of constitutional language that is vague or imprecise. The 2nd amendment has been interpreted differently by different courts--and make no mistake, it does put gun ownership in the context of local militias that don't exist and won't exist every again.

Third and most important, gun violence is a very serious practical problem in this country. Widespread gun ownership and lax regulations have
put the public at serious risk--as we see it every freakin' day witg many innocent people gunned down by individuals who, the day before their gun crimes, would have been described by the gun crazies as "responsible gun owners." There are far, far, far, too many guns in America, and far, far, far too many weird, maladjusted, mentally troubled people--no doubt millions of such people. That is a combination that accounts for the unconscionable amount of gun violence we see and read about every day. And yet we have conservatives and conservative politicians in American who are determined to not only
not address the problem but in fact to make it worse! They think /more/ people should have guns--which only goes to show in high relief how insane and
irresponsible the political right is in America. These are the same old white men who pretend to weep about abortion. Sickening hypocrisy. Apparently, not enough of their constituents have yet been killed in mass shootings.

As I've said, I've lived in Japan for a couple of years. It was nice to walk the streets of Tokyo knowing that, if I bumped into or had a disagreement with somebody, he wasn't going to pull out a gun and shoot me. Or that I wasn't going to be shot while buying a bag of rice in a grocer. One of the first questions I got asked by my new Japanese colleagues when I got to Tokyo--true story--was whether I owned a gun. It was embarrassing. Of course part of the problem is that the U.S. is a big country with an antithetical society--meaning we have two societies, really, with opposing backgrounds, education levels, life experiences, etc. Until we start bridging that divide--on guns and many other issues--this country will suffer.
Click to expand...

Whether you don’t like it or think it’s out of date, it still gives you the freedoms you enjoy everyday. Unless you think we have too much freedom.?

Yes, wonderful place Japan. A place where Samurai could kill a citizen just for not showing the right amount of respect. I’m sure the unarmed citizenry loved being ruled over.
 
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#27,400
#27,400
turbovol said:
First, the constitution was written in the freakin' 18th century. It's a wonderful document but anybody who thinks we as a country/society should
take an originalist view of it is crazy because the world--and the U.S.---is obviously massively different than it was in 1787.

Second, much if not most of the constitution is open to interpretation--and of course many current judicial decisions are merely interpretations of constitutional language that is vague or imprecise. The 2nd amendment has been interpreted differently by different courts--and make no mistake, it does put gun ownership in the context of local militias that don't exist and won't exist every again.

Third and most important, gun violence is a very serious practical problem in this country. Widespread gun ownership and lax regulations have
put the public at serious risk--as we see it every freakin' day witg many innocent people gunned down by individuals who, the day before their gun crimes, would have been described by the gun crazies as "responsible gun owners." There are far, far, far, too many guns in America, and far, far, far too many weird, maladjusted, mentally troubled people--no doubt millions of such people. That is a combination that accounts for the unconscionable amount of gun violence we see and read about every day. And yet we have conservatives and conservative politicians in American who are determined to not only
not address the problem but in fact to make it worse! They think /more/ people should have guns--which only goes to show in high relief how insane and
irresponsible the political right is in America. These are the same old white men who pretend to weep about abortion. Sickening hypocrisy. Apparently, not enough of their constituents have yet been killed in mass shootings.

As I've said, I've lived in Japan for a couple of years. It was nice to walk the streets of Tokyo knowing that, if I bumped into or had a disagreement with somebody, he wasn't going to pull out a gun and shoot me. Or that I wasn't going to be shot while buying a bag of rice in a grocer. One of the first questions I got asked by my new Japanese colleagues when I got to Tokyo--true story--was whether I owned a gun. It was embarrassing. Of course part of the problem is that the U.S. is a big country with an antithetical society--meaning we have two societies, really, with opposing backgrounds, education levels, life experiences, etc. Until we start bridging that divide--on guns and many other issues--this country will suffer.
Click to expand...
There's no question the Founding Fathers wanted its citizens to have the right to own guns. Back then there were threats from Indians as well as criminals and even the British and it's not like you could call 911 and the cops would show up w/i 5 mins. If we were to write a Constitution today, I think the 2nd amendment would be written differently but as it's written, the gov't cannot pass laws that ban you from owning any and all guns, as Chicago attempted to do in McDonald. You can't expect a court to seize on the term militia and then in turn ban everyone from owning guns.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"to disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
Click to expand...
 
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