Gun control debate (merged)

[LouderVol]

Yes, if they are trying to negotiate for fair wages/benefits/conditions.

But a business doing the same thing is wrong?

 

[utvolpj]

Yes, if they are trying to negotiate for fair wages/benefits/conditions.

Aren't they just forcing their concept of fair wages/benefits/conditions on others? Seems very artificial

 

[C-south]

Yes, if they are trying to negotiate for fair wages/benefits/conditions.

So do the employees work for the union or the company?

 

[OHvol40]

But a business doing the same thing is wrong?

No, it’s not. The business is competing to make the current conditions attractive and the striking workers are competing to make them unattractive.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

You must have missed the part where the companies controlled the real estate market (aka bought up all the farms for mineral rights and established company housing), controlled all transportation and logistics, the general stores and grocers, and paid their employees in company notes that could only be used at company stores (fixing prices for more profit and disallowing any kind of savings or wealth building opportunities).

So they paid people for their land. If they didn't take it by force then what's the argument? How did they force people to work for them? My dad's side of the family is from coal country and he's the only one that worked at a mine and that was when he was a teenager. He joined the NG and got out via an education. The people that thought they had no choice but to work in a company town were exactly right.

 

[OHvol40]

Aren't they just forcing their concept of fair wages/benefits/conditions on others? Seems very artificial

The employer was forcing their concept of fair compensation on the employees too, and the employees are rejecting it and using their collective power to get what they desire.

 

[McDad]

Yes, if they are trying to negotiate for fair wages/benefits/conditions.

Unfettered...as long as a conditional qualifications established by you is met. Doesn't sound unfettered to me. Sounds more like your definition varies depending on the circumstances.

Do these also meet your approval:
It isn't rape if she is asking for it.
It isn't stealing if I am hungry.
It isn't infidelity if she doesn't find out.

 

[OHvol40]

So they paid people for their land. If they didn't take it by force then what's the argument? How did they force people to work for them? My dad's side of the family is from coal country and he's the only one that worked at a mine and that was when he was a teenager. He joined the NG and got out via an education. The people that thought they had no choice but to work in a company town were exactly right.

You haven’t seen any early 20th century time pieces have you?

 

[utvolpj]

The employer was forcing their concept of fair compensation on the employees too, and the employees are rejecting it and using their collective power to get what they desire.

By taking over control and eliminating any individual choice? How very authoritarian of those who have little skin in the game

 

[C-south]

The employer was forcing their concept of fair compensation on the employees too, and the employees are rejecting it and using their collective power to get what they desire.

But if a union employee feels they are getting what they desire from the company and continue to work during a lockout they can be punished by the union?

 

[OHvol40]

So they paid people for their land. If they didn't take it by force then what's the argument? How did they force people to work for them? My dad's side of the family is from coal country and he's the only one that worked at a mine and that was when he was a teenager. He joined the NG and got out via an education. The people that thought they had no choice but to work in a company town were exactly right.

Well, your dad’s age matters a lot in this context. Did he grow up there before or after unions existed?

 

[OHvol40]

By taking over control and eliminating any individual choice? How very authoritarian of those who have little skin in the game

How is choice eliminated?

 

[Rickyvol77]

A business should be able to control every aspect of life?

They don't a person CHOOSES to work at a company or not

 

[utvolpj]

How is choice eliminated?

You've already said the union controls hiring and now controls wages. I do not have the ability to negotiate those on my own, clear of the union influence.

You act like the unions should control people's businesses and not the people themselves. That's ludicrous

 

[OHvol40]

But if a union employee feels they are getting what they desire from the company and continue to work during a lockout they can be punished by the union?

Punished?

 

[OHvol40]

You've already said the union controls hiring and now controls wages. I do not have the ability to negotiate those on my own clear if the union influence.

It doesn’t control anything, it just creates incentives or deterrents.

 

[C-south]

Punished?

Oh, what’s the word you used? “Disincentivized”.

 

[utvolpj]

It doesn’t control anything, it just creates incentives or deterrents.

Which can't be done as an individual without union interference. Why can I not choose my own incentives and deterrents?

 

[McDad]

I have an agreement with OH up until a point. I would have no problems with unionized employees passing our pamphlets or have civil conversations with other employees about the reality of working at a company. Give the new hire a perspective from both the employer and the employee.
I draw the line at intimidation, harassment, destruction of property, and personal harm. If the company is such an awful place to make a living, there should be no need for these mob tactics.

 

[OHvol40]

Oh, what’s the word you used? “Disincentivized”.

Exactly

 

[OHvol40]

Which can't be done as an individual without union interference. Why can I not choose my own incentives and deterrents?

You can, just like people can choose to do it as a group.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

There's a reason the mob infiltrated unions. You give me 5% of your paycheck and I'll get you a 3% raise. The vig is nice.

 

[C-south]

Exactly

So punish those that don’t have a grievance and continue to work?

 

[utvolpj]

You can, just like people can choose to do it as a group.

Oh, so I can be an employee and have zero connection to the union?

 

[OHvol40]

So punish those that don’t have a grievance and continue to work?

Go ahead and work... and don’t take part in any extra benefits gained by the union.