Georgia now officially investigating paying players

#27

05_never_again

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#27
I think it has really changed in the last 20ish years. So two decades. Prior BCS and playoff there was at least some care for rules. USC was really the last dominant team that the NCAA decides to enforce compliance. I can’t see that happening at all with OSU, Bama, UGA, Clemson. As you said and openly admit, the money tree is too big at this point. You know they are cheating, I know they are cheating, we all know everyone is cheating. The ones that are best at it and throw the most money at it are the ones that have the best teams.

That’s a business mascarading as a sport and some are big enough where regulation and monopolies are a side concern, at best.

Once the money train started nobody cared as long as the cash machine kept running. It’s a stretch to call it a sport at this point.
Every spectator sport is a business.

I'm not sure why you think things really have changed in the last 20 years. In the early 80s SMU (and the rest of the big schools, they just didn't get caught) literally had a weekly payroll. Some of those kids were getting 6 figure payouts in the early 80s. This has been going on forever, ever since the days it changed from an intramural-type sport into a spectator sport.

College athletics is not like professional sports. There has never been all that much parity in college sports, and it wasn't designed that way. If anything, you could actually argue in recent years there has been more of an attempt at parity because of revenue sharing from the TV network deals (i.e., Vandy gets a cut of SECN revenues even though they don't bring much in).

The NFL is an artificial construct where there is a limited number of teams, there's a maximum amount of money the league says they can spend on players, there is a lot of revenue sharing, the worst team in the league gets to pick first in the draft, etc. If anything, that is the true "business," because it is designed to create parity and keep all the different fanbases interested. College has never been that.
 
#28

butchna

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#28
If you think that the schools (any of them) have any interest in shutting this stuff down, you are kidding yourself. Tennessee isn't self-reporting out of sense of fair play. They saw a way out of buying out Pruitt, and they're banking on the sanctions being relatively manageable.

The UT investigation won't touch any other schools because no one has any desire to take a chainsaw to the money tree.
Tennessee’s paid out a lot of money to “save” that $12 mil. Casting us off as being cheap is the only narrative that keeps you warm at night. Our violations were leaked and practically plopped on our Chancellor’s desk. She did her job and spent a hell ton of money to get the program back moving forward. It’ll prove to have been the wise choice. Everyone else scrambles, throws up masquerade “investigations” and hope that’s enough. It will be until it isn’t.
 
#29

butchna

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#29
if he makes the claim, and you claim the counter, is he expected to disprove your counter claim with his research and sources?

Wouldn't it be just as valid for you to research your counter claim?
No...cuz he’s a writer. He pays researchers. 😏
 
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#30

bamawriter

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#30
if he makes the claim, and you claim the counter, is he expected to disprove your counter claim with his research and sources?

Wouldn't it be just as valid for you to research your counter claim?
Nope.

If you tell me that you have a blue gorilla in your bedroom, I don't have to take your word for it simply because of my inability to prove otherwise.
 
#31

bamawriter

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#31
College athletics is not like professional sports. There has never been all that much parity in college sports, and it wasn't designed that way. If anything, you could actually argue in recent years there has been more of an attempt at parity because of revenue sharing from the TV network deals (i.e., Vandy gets a cut of SECN revenues even though they don't bring much in).
This. For all the talk of "monolopies" within the sport, Vandy makes more money from their media rights contract than Notre Dame.
 
#32

rjd970

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#32
Oh. So the last time Tennessee was competing at a national level? I'm sure that's a coincidence.
I'm not even factoring Tennessee into this. Fine, call it 30 years ago. It is without question there was more parity. Competitive rules definitely mattered more. You even said it, revenues now are higher. If less parity equals more revenue, then fine. Everyone cheats, got it, but we are in a situation where the best cheaters and biggest spenders are good for business, but it is not good for competition.

Unless you're talking about dudes getting together at the Y to play pick-up basketball or a game of two-hand touch, every single sport at every single level is a business and has been for the better part of a century, if not more.
Let me ask it more plainly. If the rules of competition are ignored, is it really a competition anymore? If the bank account matters more than the rules, then the business matters more than the sport. You disagree?
 
#33

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#33
Let me ask it more plainly. If the rules of competition are ignored, is it really a competition anymore?
Only if only the majority follow the rules while a minority do not.

If the bank account matters more than the rules, then the business matters more than the sport. You disagree?
The business has always mattered more than the sport. Sports that can't be monetized will be relegated to driveways, parks, and backyards.
 
#34

05_never_again

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#34
Only if only the majority follow the rules while a minority do not.



The business has always mattered more than the sport. Sports that can't be monetized will be relegated to driveways, parks, and backyards.
What if a majority don't follow but a minority does? It's still a competition.

I'm of the opinion that all the major powers cheat, and they are all doing it on pretty similar scales and in pretty similar ways. Some are just more buttoned up about it than others (e.g., not Pruitt) and some schools are under a spotlight more than others (like Ole Miss).

@rjd970 I think the issue that you really have with it is selective enforcement of the rules, or some schools being subject to more scrutiny/eyeballs than others. And that is a fair point. However, the sport has not become "corrupted" within the last 20 or 30 years because it is a "business." It's been a business ever since it left intramurals, and there isn't anything wrong with that. Any endeavor that attracts millions of people who want to watch it is going to be monetized.
 
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#35

rjd970

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#35
What if a majority don't follow but a minority does? It's still a competition.

I'm of the opinion that all the major powers cheat, and they are all doing it on pretty similar scales and in pretty similar ways. Some are just more buttoned up about it than others (e.g., not Pruitt) and some schools are under a spotlight more than others (like Ole Miss).

@rjd970 I think the issue that you really have with it is selective enforcement of the rules, or some schools being subject to more scrutiny/eyeballs than others. And that is a fair point. However, the sport has not become "corrupted" within the last 20 or 30 years because it is a "business." It's been a business ever since it left intramurals, and there isn't anything wrong with that. Any endeavor that attracts millions of people who want to watch it is going to be monetized.
All I’m saying is as parity decreases it seems revenues increase. I disagree all major powers cheat on the same scale. I absolutely think some programs do it on a bigger scale and under a more institutionalized fashion. I’d be even willing to bet UT fell into that category in the 90’s.

At the end of the day the NCAA is a non-profit organization with a stated mission focus on the student-athlete. No?

In reality, that is not what is happening, but those cheating the best/more will pay lip service to that like they’ve actually won something on a level playing field with the student athlete interests at heart.

Maybe my issue is more so the hypocrisy of it all and when the same 6 teams are going to playoff every year it is coming more to the surface.
 
#36

McDad

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#36
Nope.

If you tell me that you have a blue gorilla in your bedroom, I don't have to take your word for it simply because of my inability to prove otherwise.
Not what you did.

Claim was made. You rejected and made your own. Then asked the other person to prove something never asserted (athletes accepted at Vandy after being denied admittance to UT). For him to say the standards were more rigorous, is not the same as saying athletes chose Vandy.

Furthermore, your claim "it was never true" was offered with no evidence to bolster credibility.

In this instance, you were simply the first to demand evidence when neither of you offered any. Additionally, you asked for evidence for a claim which was never asserted.

Everyone makes mistakes. No biggie. You made one today.
 
#38

05_never_again

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#38
All I’m saying is as parity decreases it seems revenues increase. I disagree all major powers cheat on the same scale. I absolutely think some programs do it on a bigger scale and under a more institutionalized fashion. I’d be even willing to bet UT fell into that category in the 90’s.

At the end of the day the NCAA is a non-profit organization with a stated mission focus on the student-athlete. No?

In reality, that is not what is happening, but those cheating the best/more will pay lip service to that like they’ve actually won something on a level playing field with the student athlete interests at heart.

Maybe my issue is more so the hypocrisy of it all and when the same 6 teams are going to playoff every year it is coming more to the surface.
When exactly was this golden era when there was more parity? College football has never had a lot of parity for the reasons I described earlier. At any given time, the sport is dominated by a relative handful of good teams. Always has been. One of the teams dominating the sport today isn't even a traditional power (Clemson). Oregon has had a lot of success over the last decade, and they aren't a traditional power either. Even a school like Baylor, which had a black hole in terms of history/tradition, had a good run in the 2010s as a newcomer to a P5 conference.

Tennessee fans should know this better than anyone else by now...just because you cheat doesn't mean you'll be good. Hell, it doesn't even mean you'll sign the best players.
 
#39

McDad

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#39
What if a majority don't follow but a minority does? It's still a competition.

I'm of the opinion that all the major powers cheat, and they are all doing it on pretty similar scales and in pretty similar ways. Some are just more buttoned up about it than others (e.g., not Pruitt) and some schools are under a spotlight more than others (like Ole Miss).

@rjd970 I think the issue that you really have with it is selective enforcement of the rules, or some schools being subject to more scrutiny/eyeballs than others. And that is a fair point. However, the sport has not become "corrupted" within the last 20 or 30 years because it is a "business." It's been a business ever since it left intramurals, and there isn't anything wrong with that. Any endeavor that attracts millions of people who want to watch it is going to be monetized.
I agree. Think you hit the nail on the head.

What I find with Bama and Auburn supporters is, they openly and readily acknowledge cheating. There is no shame or scandal in it. The shame comes from being stupid and getting caught. Supporters of other teams are delusional their team doesn't cheat or doesn't cheat on the scale of the rivals. And they still get embarrassed when cheating is discovered.

There is no doubt there is selective enforcement and selective punishment once cheating is brought to light.
 
#43

bamawriter

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#43
Not what you did.

Claim was made. You rejected and made your own.
That's an interesting take on what I said:

This was never really true, but it made for a great argument.
So yes, I rejected his claim. The only claim that I made was that it made for a great argument. Would you like me to link to some threads on the subject to prove that "it made for a great argument," or are you good with simply stipulating to that?

Then asked the other person to prove something never asserted (athletes accepted at Vandy after being denied admittance to UT). For him to say the standards were more rigorous, is not the same as saying athletes chose Vandy.
I requested information that could prove the claim. It's probably the easiest way to prove it, but it's certainly not the only method. If I ask for a video of the blue gorilla in your bedroom that doesn't preclude you from providing photos or eye witness testimony.

Furthermore, your claim "it was never true" was offered with no evidence to bolster credibility.
Again, I didn't make the claim. I rejected the claim. I don't have any prevailing need to prove you or him wrong because you've make a claim that doesn't carry any presumption of truth; it has to be shown to be true. If you provide some proof then I can accept the accuracy of your claim or I'll have a burden to rebut the claim.

Everyone makes mistakes. No biggie. You made one today.
I'm sure I have. Probably several. But this isn't on the list.
 
#44

McDad

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#44
That's an interesting take on what I said:



So yes, I rejected his claim. The only claim that I made was that it made for a great argument. Would you like me to link to some threads on the subject to prove that "it made for a great argument," or are you good with simply stipulating to that?



I requested information that could prove the claim. It's probably the easiest way to prove it, but it's certainly not the only method. If I ask for a video of the blue gorilla in your bedroom that doesn't preclude you from providing photos or eye witness testimony.



Again, I didn't make the claim. I rejected the claim. I don't have any prevailing need to prove you or him wrong because you've make a claim that doesn't carry any presumption of truth; it has to be shown to be true. If you provide some proof then I can accept the accuracy of your claim or I'll have a burden to rebut the claim.



I'm sure I have. Probably several. But this isn't on the list.
Life is too short to argue about it on the internet. The dialogue is there for any who care to read and come to an objective assessment. I am at peace and unchanged in my thoughts on the matter.
 
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#45

rjd970

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#45
That assumes that the other P5 conferences don't have their own dirty laundry. No one wants to go the route of mutually assured destruction.
I wouldn't be so sure.

Given Tennessee's current situation with the NCAA and us just opening our books...it reminds me of Gene Hackman's locker room speech at the end of The Replacements":

"Men...you have something going for you that the other team doesn't...for you, there is no tomorrow...and that makes you very dangerous men."

lol..

I say screw MAD at this point and we start launching nukes at other programs if we can. Hell, outside of the death penalty there isn't much the NCAA can do to us anymore that we haven't already done to ourselves. At this point we are used to sub .500 seasons anyway.
 
#46

bamawriter

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#46
I wouldn't be so sure.

Given Tennessee's current situation with the NCAA and us just opening our books...it reminds me of Gene Hackman's locker room speech at the end of The Replacements":

"Men...you have something going for you that the other team doesn't...for you, there is no tomorrow...and that makes you very dangerous men."

lol..

I say screw MAD at this point and we start launching nukes at other programs if we can. Hell, outside of the death penalty there isn't much the NCAA can do to us anymore that we haven't already done to ourselves. At this point we are used to sub .500 seasons anyway.
UT sponsors football to make money. Despite what seems to be the best efforts of the administration, UT football still makes a lot of money. The administration may be incompetent, but they are not stupid.
 
#47

rjd970

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#47
UT sponsors football to make money. Despite what seems to be the best efforts of the administration, UT football still makes a lot of money. The administration may be incompetent, but they are not stupid.
I doubt the money will be materially different with a 5-win season because of administrative ineptitude and a 5-win season because of NCAA sanctions. Like I said, there is very little the NCAA can do to UT at the moment to makes things much worse.

The fall will certainly be greater for Bama and UGA.
 
#48

butchna

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#48
That's an interesting take on what I said:



So yes, I rejected his claim. The only claim that I made was that it made for a great argument. Would you like me to link to some threads on the subject to prove that "it made for a great argument," or are you good with simply stipulating to that?



I requested information that could prove the claim. It's probably the easiest way to prove it, but it's certainly not the only method. If I ask for a video of the blue gorilla in your bedroom that doesn't preclude you from providing photos or eye witness testimony.



Again, I didn't make the claim. I rejected the claim. I don't have any prevailing need to prove you or him wrong because you've make a claim that doesn't carry any presumption of truth; it has to be shown to be true. If you provide some proof then I can accept the accuracy of your claim or I'll have a burden to rebut the claim.



I'm sure I have. Probably several. But this isn't on the list.
You can PROVIDE links “proving” YOUR claim or you can’t. You’re not on this board to ACCEPT anything...merely to spout and condescend.
 
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#49

bamawriter

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#49
I doubt the money will be materially different with a 5-win season because of administrative ineptitude and a 5-win season because of NCAA sanctions. Like I said, there is very little the NCAA can do to UT at the moment to makes things much worse.
That's true.

But a large chunk of UT's revenue is driven by the success of the conference. Go scorched earth and that revenue craters.
 
#50

onevol74

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#50
That assumes that the other P5 conferences don't have their own dirty laundry. No one wants to go the route of mutually assured destruction.
We already have mutually assured destruction if all the teams are not playing by the same rules. Attendance is dropping like a brick in college football over the last 15 years. The image of college football is now taking on the traits of professional wrestling with a total lack of credibility. Some of have been college football fans for more than 50 years and can see this game is a total farce now. It is no longer a game I encourage my children or grandchildren to enjoy. Would love to see it fixed somehow.
 

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