GAME THREAD: @ Ole Miss, Tuesday, 2/17, 7pm EST, ESPNU

[LadyVolsDiehard]

That is why we are a somewhat decent team and not a great team. We needed a 40% deadly 3-point shooter and an athletic post rebounder/defender of the rim. We got Nya and Jersey.

We had our eyes on T'yana Todd from Boston College who is currently riding the bench at Ohio State. I think she even paid visit. She was one of the best 3pt specialists in the country last season and we lost her.

Here is her snapshot from last season, sure hate went missed out on her

 

[madtownvol]

During the press conference, when Kim announced that Ruby was dismissed, didn't she say this decision will not help this team this year, but will definitely help the program down the road or something like that. I think what we are now seeing are her words manifesting itself in real time, but that small quote is what I'm holding onto during these losses. It gives me hope that we are taking our lumps now for doing the right thing and hopefully down the road it will blossom into something awesome like our kick ass softball team...

Counterfactuals (i.e. how the world would be different if this one event did not happen) is a tricky game.

Let's imagine that CKC had given the Ruby a third chance and the team still struggled. Then, we all be certain that the problem is because CKC did not do what "Pat would have done" and upheld her disciplinary standards and now the players feel there is no accountability.

In our actual world, I would speculate that the odds of these players holding a "Ruby grudge" over an entire season and holding it so strongly, they they choose to get blown out repeatedly on national television (thereby hurting their draft stock and other options and generally making their own lives less enjoyable) seems unlikely.

Rather than speculating about the player's self-defeating psychology, we might look at a system which asks them do to things they are not good at, keeps them perpetually out of position on defense, makes it very challenging to develop any kind of chemistry or rhythm during a game.

We could further speculate that the players might even be making the best of a flawed system that is not well suited to success at this level of competition.

If someone jumps out of airplane with a faulty parachute, speculating that the negative outcome was due to an inappropriate mindset on the part of the skydiver might be a misdiagnosis of the situation.

 

[brittannica]

Counterfactuals (i.e. how the world would be different if this one event did not happen) is a tricky game.

Let's imagine that CKC had given the Ruby a third chance and the team still struggled. Then, we all be certain that the problem is because CKC did not do what "Pat would have done" and upheld her disciplinary standards and now the players feel there is no accountability.

I would speculate that the odds of these players holding a "Ruby grudge" over an entire season and holding it so strongly, they they choose to get blown out repeatedly on national television (thereby hurting their draft stock and other options and generally making their own lives less enjoyable) seems unlikely.

Rather than speculating about the player's self-defeating psychology, we might look at a system which asks them do to things they are not good at, keeps them perpetually out of position on defense, makes it very challenging to develop any kind of chemistry or rhythm during a game.

We could further speculate that the players might even be making the best of a flawed system that is not well suited to success at this level of competition.

If someone jumps out of airplane with a faulty parachute, speculating that the negative outcome was due to a lack of mental discipline on the part of the skydiver might be a misdiagnosis of the situation.

I thought it was interesting that Coop asserted that they played hard all game in the post-game press conference.

 

[papatomany]

This is a quote attributed to CPS, some of you will know better than I if it is authentic:

“I'm not good at coaching effort. I don't know that you can teach that to a player.”

Pat also occasionally publicly called out lack of effort, and would respond to the "what are you going to do" question with "I don't know...until THEY decide, it won't happen".
What people on here call "throwing the players under the bus".

 

[Dak1219]

Well Barker was supposed to help also but she is more of a wing . The way Zee was progressing last year probably thought she would be even better this year but she went backwards by a lot.

Zee has played almost non stop for probably close to 20 months, ending last season following the tournament and baskically jumping right into USA basketball then returning to preseason with the lady vols. Some players can handle that and some can't. She looks burnt out to me. Following USA basketball last summer, this coaching staff should have given her an extended stop period away from basketball to keep the mental part together. You can have all the physical attributes in the world, but if themental aspect is not there, it really doesn't matter. I think she is fried right now and going through the motions rather than playing at the level she is capable of playing at.

 

[LadyVolsDiehard]

Zee has played almost non stop for probably close to 20 months, ending last season following the tournament and baskically jumping right into USA basketball then returning to preseason with the lady vols. Some players can handle that and some can't. She looks burnt out to me. Following USA basketball last summer, this coaching staff should have given her an extended stop period away from basketball to keep the mental part together. You can have all the physical attributes in the world, but if themental aspect is not there, it really doesn't matter. I think she is fried right now and going through the motions rather than playing at the level she is capable of playing at.

Understandable but if this is case - I'd still not start her. That's not cruel it's just reality of the situation. Why keep starting someone who is fried as you say? It hurts the team. I get she might be vocal in practices and before the games but ultimately if she's not producing for Kim and those are minutes Hurst, Prawl and Civil could be using towards their development and help us potentially win ball games.

 

[brassie]

Pat also occasionally publicly called out lack of effort, and would respond to the "what are you going to do" question with "I don't know...until THEY decide, it won't happen".
What people on here call "throwing the players under the bus".

I think all coaches do that. Sometimes under the bus is exactly where they belong.

 

[KTrain]

Quote

I think all coaches do that. Sometimes under the bus is exactly where they belong.

Yep, and if said coach is winning at the time they say anything, be what some would call negative. The fans, Coach has a sharp way of getting across to some players. If the coach is losing games at the time the same talking point would be, coach is throwing teenagers under the bus.
Fans sometimes are Fanatical.

 

[backdoorcutvol]

Right now I think Jersey> Zee.

 

[Legion of Doom]

I hate to see how KC handled the handshake at end of game. That was really poor sportsmanship. She should apologize to her team for acting that way.

 

[Deebowbear]

Right now I think Jersey> Zee.

Zee just wants dribble and shoot the ball like a guard.

 

[AllVols3]

Hm, that’s interesting. Maybe heart can’t be Coached, but I believe ‘never give up, never stop fighting, never quit’ can be Coached.

No , no it can't. That's what you have inside you, you either have it or you don't.

 

[AllVols3]

You better believe Pat Summit coached effort if she thought it was lacking.

Also, she made sure she was recruiting effort.

No coach in history can make you have heart or make you play with effort. They can bench you, but that doesn't change the makeup of the player. They either have heart or they don't. Heart isn't something you can turn on and off. If you have heart it's always on.

 

[glv98]

No , no it can't. That's what you have inside you, you either have it or you don't.

Then dont recruit those players. Ultimately, it’s her responsibility. She put this roster together.

Great coaches can and do manage focus and mindset.

 

[LV renaissance]

I couldn't even come here until now. I think this team is extremely hard to watch. All teams have hot and cold periods, but our bad periods are truly horrible. We either play some of the worst defense that I have seen a LV team play (3rd quarter in this and many games) or the offense looks like a team that has never practiced together such as the first quarter where we were so wooden and almost every pass was so off (too high, low, misaimed, etc.) that each seemed like a turnover risk. Think just a few months ago when many of us couldn't wait till the season began given we had a team of great freshmen, good portal players, and upperclassmen that were talented and on a positive trajectory (Ruby, Zee, Latham, Boyd, and Cooper). Among this year portal players and the returnees, no one has improved except for Latham, Cooper and Barker are arguably about the same (even though Barker's numbers are better due to more time, I think many thought she might make one of all SEC teams, which now I doubt she will), one player regressed (Boyd) and two have become almost unrecognizable compared to before (Zee and Jersey). Yes, Jersey had some of her same deficits before, but she was never a complete non-factor on any of her other teams. It is hard to know where to put Robinson here, as she has improved the last few games (5 assists to one turnover @ Ole Miss) but before than she had many games in which she actually was a detriment to the team despite her genuine effort. I am beyond disappointed that only 1 of the 8 players who played last year have showed clear improvement. Shouldn't it be the other way around -- that 6 or 7 of the show improvement, some markedly. Last year team featured several players with marked improvement from the previous year they played including Cooper, Tess, Zee, Ruby, Jillian, and Samara. I think this was even better progression than average. I imagine this led to the high expectations locally and nationally for this team. If someone joined the board presesaon and said that only 1 of the 8 would show clear progress, we would have probably wondered if they were a troll. That hardly ever happens unless something is off. I think Kim has given a clue that this isn't a team that progresses in the typical way, as she was astonished that they could never meet the practice agenda due to lack of resiliency and emotional reactiveness. I am perplexed and disappointed but would love to be surprised by the team the rest of the season. I also love our freshmen and if they all stay, I can still envision that we could be good in the future. That is with the assumption that they will improve with experience. In other words, be unlike our upper classmen this year.

 

[LadyVolsDiehard]

Right now I think Jersey> Zee.

How about neither.
Both players are 6'4 & 6'5 and just wasting space and time.

 

[AllVols3]

Then dont recruit those players. Ultimately, it’s her responsibility. She put this roster together.

Great coaches can and do manage focus and mindset.

The HS girls always show heart. They may not be where we need them to be stats wise , but effort is never a problem. I said weeks ago, Hurst needs to play and I stand by that statement.

 

[RetroVol]

Grandfather stuff kept me busy some today.

Claude says: The substitution pattern shows the shift clearly - Q1 had three 5-5 subs (7:55, 6:52, 2:48) as Caldwell ran her system, but by Q3 it dropped to 4-4s, and Q4 was entirely 1-1 and 2-2 subs. Ole Miss relied almost exclusively on individual subs throughout - their biggest was a single 2-2 at the start of Q2 and one more in Q3.

Tennessee Lady Vols Substitution Patterns
vs Ole Miss - Chronological

	TN	OM
Q1	8:40 3-3 7:55 5-5 6:52 5-5 4:56 2-2 3:48 3-3 2:48 5-5 1:30 2-2 0:39 1-1	2:48 1-1 2:22 1-1 1:30 1-1 0:39 1-1
Q2	8:25 4-4 6:08 2-2 5:15 3-3 5:08 1-1 4:55 1-1 3:10 2-2 2:04 1-1	10:00 2-2 8:25 1-1 6:08 1-1 5:15 1-1 1:30 1-1
Q3	10:00 2-2 9:04 3-3 7:45 1-1 7:26 4-4 6:32 1-1 5:22 4-4 4:35 4-4 2:51 1-1 2:31 1-1 1:03 3-3	10:00 1-1 8:24 1-1 6:32 2-2 5:41 1-1 4:35 1-1 2:51 1-1
Q4	10:00 1-1 8:46 1-1 7:22 2-2 6:56 1-1 4:16 2-2 3:41 2-2 1:22 1-1	8:59 1-1 7:57 1-1 7:22 1-1 6:09 1-1

 

[Golfteacher]

Cotie McMahon had a field day and the staff was unable to make adjustments. However, the Lady Vols will beat Texas A&M and win at least one game in the SEC tournament and make the NCAA tournament. Based upon the seeding, it will determine if the Lady Vols will win one or two games in the NCAA. This program is too vanilla and easy to read and makes few adjustments. Also our offense is subject to go South at a moment’s notice.

 

[RetroVol]

Last year team featured several players with marked improvement from the previous year they played including Cooper, Tess, Zee, Ruby, Jillian, and Samara. I think this was even better progression than average. I imagine this led to the high expectations locally and nationally for this team.

That was certainly part of the basis for my high expectations.

 

[Rooster1]

I hate to see how KC handled the handshake at end of game. That was really poor sportsmanship. She should apologize to her team for acting that way.

Apparently others agree, front page of the USA Today newspaper ….i have rewatched the video of the ”handshake” a few times now, it wasn’t a good look but more importantly it wasn’t a good display of sportsmanship. It’s just what it is, I’m not making any judgement calls here.

NCAAW Basketball News: Rankings, Scores, and Polls - USATODAY.com

Up-to-the-minute news and information for college basketball, game scores, rankings, and team coverage from USATODAY.com

www.usatoday.com

 

[vols90]

X…Wrong thread

 

[Rooster1]

I couldn't even come here until now. I think this team is extremely hard to watch. All teams have hot and cold periods, but our bad periods are truly horrible. We either play some of the worst defense that I have seen a LV team play (3rd quarter in this and many games) or the offense looks like a team that has never practiced together such as the first quarter where we were so wooden and almost every pass was so off (too high, low, misaimed, etc.) that each seemed like a turnover risk. Think just a few months ago when many of us couldn't wait till the season began given we had a team of great freshmen, good portal players, and upperclassmen that were talented and on a positive trajectory (Ruby, Zee, Latham, Boyd, and Cooper). Among this year portal players and the returnees, no one has improved except for Latham, Cooper and Barker are arguably about the same (even though Barker's numbers are better due to more time, I think many thought she might make one of all SEC teams, which now I doubt she will), one player regressed (Boyd) and two have become almost unrecognizable compared to before (Zee and Jersey). Yes, Jersey had some of her same deficits before, but she was never a complete non-factor on any of her other teams. It is hard to know where to put Robinson here, as she has improved the last few games (5 assists to one turnover @ Ole Miss) but before than she had many games in which she actually was a detriment to the team despite her genuine effort. I am beyond disappointed that only 1 of the 8 players who played last year have showed clear improvement. Shouldn't it be the other way around -- that 6 or 7 of the show improvement, some markedly. Last year team featured several players with marked improvement from the previous year they played including Cooper, Tess, Zee, Ruby, Jillian, and Samara. I think this was even better progression than average. I imagine this led to the high expectations locally and nationally for this team. If someone joined the board presesaon and said that only 1 of the 8 would show clear progress, we would have probably wondered if they were a troll. That hardly ever happens unless something is off. I think Kim has given a clue that this isn't a team that progresses in the typical way, as she was astonished that they could never meet the practice agenda due to lack of resiliency and emotional reactiveness. I am perplexed and disappointed but would love to be surprised by the team the rest of the season. I also love our freshmen and if they all stay, I can still envision that we could be good in the future. That is with the assumption that they will improve with experience. In other words, be unlike our upper classmen this year.

I’m sure most of what you said has merit. But paragraphs can be your friend. Hard read in that format.

 

[LadyVolsDiehard]

Grandfather stuff kept me busy some today.

Claude says: The substitution pattern shows the shift clearly - Q1 had three 5-5 subs (7:55, 6:52, 2:48) as Caldwell ran her system, but by Q3 it dropped to 4-4s, and Q4 was entirely 1-1 and 2-2 subs. Ole Miss relied almost exclusively on individual subs throughout - their biggest was a single 2-2 at the start of Q2 and one more in Q3.

Tennessee Lady Vols Substitution Patterns
vs Ole Miss - Chronological

	TN	OM
Q1	8:40 3-3 7:55 5-5 6:52 5-5 4:56 2-2 3:48 3-3 2:48 5-5 1:30 2-2 0:39 1-1	2:48 1-1 2:22 1-1 1:30 1-1 0:39 1-1
Q2	8:25 4-4 6:08 2-2 5:15 3-3 5:08 1-1 4:55 1-1 3:10 2-2 2:04 1-1	10:00 2-2 8:25 1-1 6:08 1-1 5:15 1-1 1:30 1-1
Q3	10:00 2-2 9:04 3-3 7:45 1-1 7:26 4-4 6:32 1-1 5:22 4-4 4:35 4-4 2:51 1-1 2:31 1-1 1:03 3-3	10:00 1-1 8:24 1-1 6:32 2-2 5:41 1-1 4:35 1-1 2:51 1-1
Q4	10:00 1-1 8:46 1-1 7:22 2-2 6:56 1-1 4:16 2-2 3:41 2-2 1:22 1-1	8:59 1-1 7:57 1-1 7:22 1-1 6:09 1-1

Tell tale sign when Kim panics she subs everyone out within the first 3-4 minutes of action to find the "right combinations" 1st. Drop to the 3rd, the panic meter increases, one minute a fresh 4.

 

[LV renaissance]

I’m sure most of what you said has merit. But paragraphs can be your friend. Hard read in that format.

Gotcha. I write on a very large laptop and so it doesn't look daunting until I see it later on my phone. I will try to keep that James Taylor/Carole King song "You've Got a Friend" in mind. I would say more, but hey, maybe less can be more .