Game Thread: Lady Vols v UT-Martin, Away, Sun. Nov 9th, 3PM, ESPN+; (Win 72-61)

[Volfan2012]

I dunno... if it's the system that's hard to learn, then shouldn't CKC have had less success with her previous teams, which were made up of less experienced, less accomplished, less athletic (if you count size) players? If anything, her system is less complicated, less about Xs and Os, and more about each player utilizing her skillset, her on-court personality, to achieve more shot attempts than the opponent through generated turnovers and offensive rebounds.

I agree, if it was Xs and Os being too complicated, that they should dial that back, simplify, or wait to install everything.

But if it's just ingrained habits and attitudes having to be unlearned, then I'm not sure how a coach could strategically tweak things like... going straight into aggressive defense after a made basket, seeking to force turnovers every second you're out there on defense, pushing the ball downcourt as rapidly as possible on offense, and playing without constant bench instructions.

I keep hearing CKC say, as last season, that players are doing it right in practice but falling back into old habits during games. If she sees this happening more at Tennessee than it did at Glenville State or Marshall, then I'm thinking it must be because players at this level have already played far more hours of basketball, nearly year-'round, and thus those old habits are more deeply set, more instinctive, and thus coming out when she turns them lose to play the actual games.

If that's the case (and I know I may be full of hooey) then the only adjustment that would make sense would be to work with more players over successive seasons, until their old habits have been fully purged and replaced. Our best clue to whether or not that will work would be to observe how much Coop, Zee, Latham and Boyd improve/adjust over last season, once they get adjusted to playing with all their new, still assimilating, teammates.
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[Geez, it's obvious when I should be doing other writing--I get so long winded here instead! Apologies...]

Definitely has to be hard to learn cause I have seen a lot of teams further along that we are right now.

 

[madtownvol]

I dunno... if it's the system that's hard to learn, then shouldn't CKC have had less success with her previous teams, which were made up of less experienced, less accomplished, less athletic (if you count size) players? If anything, her system is less complicated, less about Xs and Os, and more about each player utilizing her skillset, her on-court personality, to achieve more shot attempts than the opponent through generated turnovers and offensive rebounds.

I agree, if it was Xs and Os being too complicated, that they should dial that back, simplify, or wait to install everything.

But if it's just ingrained habits and attitudes having to be unlearned, then I'm not sure how a coach could strategically tweak things like... going straight into aggressive defense after a made basket, seeking to force turnovers every second you're out there on defense, pushing the ball downcourt as rapidly as possible on offense, and playing without constant bench instructions.

I keep hearing CKC say, as last season, that players are doing it right in practice but falling back into old habits during games. If she sees this happening more at Tennessee than it did at Glenville State or Marshall, then I'm thinking it must be because players at this level have already played far more hours of basketball, nearly year-'round, and thus those old habits are more deeply set, more instinctive, and thus coming out when she turns them lose to play the actual games.

If that's the case (and I know I may be full of hooey) then the only adjustment that would make sense would be to work with more players over successive seasons, until their old habits have been fully purged and replaced. Our best clue to whether or not that will work would be to observe how much Coop, Zee, Latham and Boyd improve/adjust over last season, once they get adjusted to playing with all their new, still assimilating, teammates.
---------------
[Geez, it's obvious when I should be doing other writing--I get so long winded here instead! Apologies...]

On that point and to the argument made by some others, "that CKC needs to stick with her system since that is what got her here", she has already change one key facet of the system. She has never coached a team of 4 and 5 star recruits. At her D2 school and Marshall, she had decent players who were a serious level below SEC caliber and she was competing against teams with similar player profiles. When you have a team of workhorses, how do you beat another team of workhorses? You play a system that turbocharges your workhorses and you "out effort" the other teams for 40 minutes. Brilliant!

Last season, I accepted the it takes time to learn the "system" but i am pretty convinced now that the system (particularly on the defensive side) has liabilities that talented teams will always exploit. I also think the substitute my 5 generic workhorses for another set of 5 generic workhorses, does not optimize the capacities of her 4 and 5 star players.

I have no doubt that rhe 60-90 second subbing routine is counterproductive.

In the NBA, lots of team do a play a platoon system with a Team A and Team B rotation. However, they always keep one "glue" player on the court to ensure the offense has a focal point. For the Golden state Warriors (the NBA team I watch the most), Steph Curry or Jimmy Butler is always on the court unless its 4th quarter blow out time. For the LVs, you would always want Coop or Barker on the floor and you can platoon sub every 3-5 minutes if you want to be aggressive but still maintain some sense of continuity.

There are good templates for implementing the style of play CKC wants to have but they avoid some of liabilities that have been plaguing the team to this point (including last season)

 

[glv98]

Definitely has to be hard to learn cause I have seen a lot of teams further along that we are right now.

At what point does risk/reward kick in? How successful does the system have to be (I know Shes won championships with it at a lower level) to be worth the extra bother? We keep hearing how freeing and instinctual this style is, and she’s been teaching it for a decade so why is it harder than Chinese Algebra to learn? And harder to train for than summitting Everest. When are we working harder not smarter?

It’s all a really interesting experiment to watch unfold. Shes bright, determined and wants to win so I think she’ll figure it out.

 

[OrangeBeachVol]

On that point and to the argument made by some others, "that CKC needs to stick with her system since that is what got her here", she has already change one key facet of the system. She has never coached a team of 4 and 5 star recruits. At her D2 school and Marshall, she had decent players who were a serious level below SEC caliber and she was competing against teams with similar player profiles. When you have a team of workhorses, how do you beat another team of workhorses? You play a system that turbocharges your workhorses and you "out effort" the other teams for 40 minutes. Brilliant!

Last season, I accepted the it takes time to learn the "system" but i am pretty convinced now that the system (particularly on the defensive side) has liabilities that talented teams will always exploit. I also think the substitute my 5 generic workhorses for another set of 5 generic workhorses, does not optimize the capacities of her 4 and 5 star players.

I have no doubt that rhe 60-90 sexond subbing rountine is counterproductive.

In the NBA, lots of team do a play a platoon system with a Team A and Team B rotation. However, they always keep one "glue" player on the court to ensure the offense has a focal point. For the Golden state Warriors (the NBA team I watch the most), Steph Curry or Jimmy Butler is always on the court unless its 4th quarter blow out time. For the LVs, you would always want Coop or Barker on the floor and you can platoon sub every 3-5 minutes if you want to be aggressive but it still maintain some sense of continuity.

There are good template for implementing the style of play CKC wants to have but they avoid some of liabilites that have been plaguing the team to this point (including last season)

Good post. I agree that the coaches at this level can find and exploit the holes in any scheme or system and hope Kim realizes that she is going to have to change things every yr to stay ahead of the curve.

 

[Volfan2012]

At what point does risk/reward kick in? How successful does the system have to be (I know Shes won championships with it at a lower level) to be worth the extra bother? We keep hearing how freeing and instinctual this style is, and she’s been teaching it for a decade so why is it harder than Chinese Algebra to learn? And harder to train for than summitting Everest. When are we working harder not smarter?

It’s all a really interesting experiment to watch unfold. Shes bright, determined and wants to win so I think she’ll figure it out.

We've seen the system work and seen it fail. Right now I would say it is at 50-50 and early this year actually looks worse than last year. Definitely failed in the last game it did nothing that it is designed to do we simply out talented them in the end to win the game

I like some aspects of it and hate others. I hope in the end I come to like everything about it. Right now I can't.

 

[glv98]

On that point and to the argument made by some others, "that CKC needs to stick with her system since that is what got her here", she has already change one key facet of the system. She has never coached a team of 4 and 5 star recruits. At her D2 school and Marshall, she had decent players who were a serious level below SEC caliber and she was competing against teams with similar player profiles. When you have a team of workhorses, how do you beat another team of workhorses? You play a system that turbocharges your workhorses and you "out effort" the other teams for 40 minutes. Brilliant!

Last season, I accepted the it takes time to learn the "system" but i am pretty convinced now that the system (particularly on the defensive side) has liabilities that talented teams will always exploit. I also think the substitute my 5 generic workhorses for another set of 5 generic workhorses, does not optimize the capacities of her 4 and 5 star players.

I have no doubt that rhe 60-90 sexond subbing rountine is counterproductive.

In the NBA, lots of team do a play a platoon system with a Team A and Team B rotation. However, they always keep one "glue" player on the court to ensure the offense has a focal point. For the Golden state Warriors (the NBA team I watch the most), Steph Curry or Jimmy Butler is always on the court unless its 4th quarter blow out time. For the LVs, you would always want Coop or Barker on the floor and you can platoon sub every 3-5 minutes if you want to be aggressive but it still maintain some sense of continuity.

There are good template for implementing the style of play CKC wants to have but they avoid some of liabilites that have been plaguing the team to this point (

I was remembering earlier how much KJH stubbornness irked you. And also led to her downfall.

I think there will be tweakage, and probably in exactly the areas we’ve talked about. The shortcomings are pretty obvious. But I think the tweaking will be very gradual. I don’t think she’ll do a complete rug pull,especially not this soon.

I just want them to be flexible and situational and adapt to in game circumstances. Be capable of more than one system of play. Uptempo and hard pressing can stay the ID, it’s a good one. But be capable of a surprise now and then.

I agree that a more platoon approach to subbing would be a good place to start. The mass subbing still seems confusing and chaotic. Probably just me, but I still can’t believe any of those kids enjoy playing that way. (Although of course they’re here so they must at least accept it.)And I still don’t think it’s good for their long term games.

i’d rather see the best combo of 5 start ea half and play 4-5 mins and the last 4 mins of close games. In between, play well thought out platoons that play 3-4 mins of actual game time.

I wonder if conditioning might be at the root of a lot of stuff early. this year. We know she tweaked the marine style conditioning regimen because it wore them out last year. And this team is definitely not in the same condition the squad was last year at this point. But again that squad ran out of gas. Is this another place that the system is just too dang hard to find a balance in? Another interesting experiment.

 

[J-Dog 1313]

Good post. I agree that the coaches at this level can find and exploit the holes in any scheme or system and hope Kim realizes that she is going to have to change things every yr to stay ahead of the curve.

Still early in the season. Once the defense tightens up a bit, we'll begin to see the benefits. I am old enough to remember Barry Switzer and the Oklahoma Wish Bone offense that no team could stop until those teams figured it out. I do believe, like you state, Coach will have to modify things every now and again to stay ahead of teams figuring out how to effectively play the LVs. GBO.

 

[madtownvol]

I was remembering earlier how much KJH stubbornness irked you. And also led to her downfall.

I think there will be tweakage, and probably in exactly the areas we’ve talked about. The shortcomings are pretty obvious. But I think the tweaking will be very gradual. I don’t think she’ll do a complete rug pull,especially not this soon.

I just want them to be flexible and situational and adapt to in game circumstances. Be capable of more than one system of play. Uptempo and hard pressing can stay the ID, it’s a good one. But be capable of a surprise now and then.

I agree that a more platoon approach to subbing would be a good place to start. The mass subbing still seems confusing and chaotic. Probably just me, but I still can’t believe any of those kids enjoy playing that way. (Although of course they’re here so they must at least accept it.)And I still don’t think it’s good for their long term games.

i’d rather see the best combo of 5 start ea half and play 4-5 mins and the last 4 mins of close games. In between, play well thought out platoons that play 3-4 mins of actual game time.

I wonder if conditioning might be at the root of a lot of stuff early. this year. We know she tweaked the marine style conditioning regimen because it wore them out last year. And this team is definitely not in the same condition the squad was last year at this point. But again that squad ran out of gas. Is this another place that the system is just too dang hard to find a balance in? Another interesting experiment.

I was an unwavering Kellie supporter but she wrote her own epitaph-- "I don't like change!". That inadvertent admission (in response to the question of why she was sticking with a line-up that was not working) summed up everything wrong with her coaching approach.

I really don't want a dogged, stubborn commitment to "a system" to be CKC's eventual downfall because she could be a great coach.

 

[volfan99c]

On that point and to the argument made by some others, "that CKC needs to stick with her system since that is what got her here", she has already change one key facet of the system. She has never coached a team of 4 and 5 star recruits. At her D2 school and Marshall, she had decent players who were a serious level below SEC caliber and she was competing against teams with similar player profiles. When you have a team of workhorses, how do you beat another team of workhorses? You play a system that turbocharges your workhorses and you "out effort" the other teams for 40 minutes. Brilliant!

Last season, I accepted the it takes time to learn the "system" but i am pretty convinced now that the system (particularly on the defensive side) has liabilities that talented teams will always exploit. I also think the substitute my 5 generic workhorses for another set of 5 generic workhorses, does not optimize the capacities of her 4 and 5 star players.

I have no doubt that rhe 60-90 second subbing routine is counterproductive.

In the NBA, lots of team do a play a platoon system with a Team A and Team B rotation. However, they always keep one "glue" player on the court to ensure the offense has a focal point. For the Golden state Warriors (the NBA team I watch the most), Steph Curry or Jimmy Butler is always on the court unless its 4th quarter blow out time. For the LVs, you would always want Coop or Barker on the floor and you can platoon sub every 3-5 minutes if you want to be aggressive but still maintain some sense of continuity.

There are good templates for implementing the style of play CKC wants to have but they avoid some of liabilities that have been plaguing the team to this point (including last season)

about the platoon system i'd say the offense also looks pretty rough when pauldo/coop is on the bench. one of them should always be there imo

 

[KnoxLikeUs]

The offense has scorers up and down the roster. They just can’t get in a rhythm playing 1 minute and 30 seconds.
Can’t over analyzed 3 games.

 

[glv98]

The offense has scorers up and down the roster. They just can’t get in a rhythm playing 1 minute and 30 seconds.
Can’t over analyzed 3 games.

We talked about that last year. But apparently needing to be in rhythm to play efficient offense is considered old school and not a part of this system.

 

[KnoxLikeUs]

Don’t know what you’re talking about and not interested in hearing about.

 

[RetroVol]

Belmont thread?

 

[Scotty4lvs]

At what point does risk/reward kick in? How successful does the system have to be (I know Shes won championships with it at a lower level) to be worth the extra bother? We keep hearing how freeing and instinctual this style is, and she’s been teaching it for a decade so why is it harder than Chinese Algebra to learn? And harder to train for than summitting Everest. When are we working harder not smarter?

It’s all a really interesting experiment to watch unfold. Shes bright, determined and wants to win so I think she’ll figure it out.

Now I'm just picturing the Lady Vols in a line climbing Mt. Everest w/ their Algebra textbooks...I have found this season really hard to enjoy so far and this post just made me crack up, thanks for the levity lol. System aside, something with this team is just off to me, call it chemistry or whatever, but I too hope they figure it out...in the meantime, thanks for the laugh!

 

[Coach Jumper]

Belmont thread?

will start in a short while

 

[chuckiepoo]

Just for future reference:
The game can be found at youtube. Women’s Basketball Alliance site.