Game Thread: Lady Vols v UT-Martin, Away, Sun. Nov 9th, 3PM, ESPN+; (Win 72-61)

[Volfan2012]

Just glad that this team had enough willpower to come out in the second half and win this game. We've had some teams in the past that would've lost yesterday.

 

[Volfan2012]

Women's Basketball Cumulative Statistics

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utsports.com

Here are the three game stats as you can see about six players are really carrying the load and the rest virtually nothing to this point. Those other five need to step up and make some plays for the team.

Three point shooting we seem to have four really solid shooters and three more that really like to shoot it and then five that should never shoot a three again.

 

[spojo13]

Team will have to get a lot better from where they are now or it won't be the season everyone was expecting. I thought we made some really good strides in the second half of the UT Martin game even though we only won the half by 11. The defense plus effort looked a lot better and on offense we were at least moving the ball better and getting open shots.

For sure. Rather them start out not as great now and build towards gelling and hit their stride later. Anyone thinking a team with freshmen in important roles and transfers learning a new system would have great chemistry to start the season might have been wishing for too much.

 

[Sudden Impact]

I wish she hadn't said that publicly. First it was not the absolute that many are making it out to be; second, it tipped our hand to our opponents (even though it was probably already apparent).

Martin was sagging off, clogging the paint, and that's the main reason why we had so many turnovers. I think we will see a lot of teams do this to us - it's the smart play against Barker/Coop/Zee etc. If I were the opposing coach, I would absolutely force the LVs to beat me with the 3. Given this opponent strategy, we are going to have to shoot a ton of 3s in the half-court because that is the only thing that the defense is going to give us.

At this point in the season it could be reverse physiology, but who really knows. You are going to have to run an offense at some point in the season with double and sagging defenses. RW was a stable force inside, she is gone. Let somebody establish their selves inside. We are young and somebody will step up.

 

[J-Dog 1313]

Mia Pauldo and Jaida Civil are two of the best freshmen in the country. I would say Jaida Civil and Mia Pauldo right now is in the Top 3 along with the freshmen at USC for NCAA FOY. No other freshmen and not many other players regardless of classification are as athletic as Civil.
For as good as both Mia and Mya have been, I think it’s the depth of this team that will separate it from the opposition.
This is a top 5 roster in WBB. Some players are struggling right now and need time to get in a flow/rhythm in this system.
When it does click they will be unguardable offensively.
The LVs are 11 deep against every team this season. Unheard of in WBB.

Agreed %. GBO.

 

[37620VOL]

At this point in the season it could be reverse physiology, but who really knows. You are going to have to run an offense at some point in the season with double and sagging defenses. RW was a stable force inside, she is gone. Let somebody establish their selves inside. We are young and somebody will step up.

The solution to a sagging defense is to shoot it well enough that they legitimately have to guard you at the 3p line. There isn't really another solution that does not lead to 20+ TOs per game.

It's like in football, if the D is putting 9 in the box, you are going to need to throw it well enough that they drop 2 defenders into coverage, then you can run.

 

[madtownvol]

I wish she hadn't said that publicly. First it was not the absolute that many are making it out to be; second, it tipped our hand to our opponents (even though it was probably already apparent).

Martin was sagging off, clogging the paint, and that's the main reason why we had so many turnovers. I think we will see a lot of teams do this to us - it's the smart play against Barker/Coop/Zee etc. If I were the opposing coach, I would absolutely force the LVs to beat me with the 3. Given this opponent strategy, we are going to have to shoot a ton of 3s in the half-court because that is the only thing that the defense is going to give us.

You are 100% correct. Folks forget that game dynamics involve the action of 2 teams. In WCBB, really athletic players who are excellent 3 point shooters remain a unicorn. People railed against Tess and to a lesser extent Jewel, because they were not "cheetahs" but they were players who spread the floor. Teams had to respect their outside threat.

In the first 3 games, the LVs 3 point shooting has not been great so of course, teams will give them that shot. If the LVs are not playing in transition, they may continue to find half court sets to be tough sledding.

 

[LV renaissance]

Look up Z. Johnson

I almost posted this but didn't. Theywill discount it completely because it was against weak competition whereas all of our Freshman are lauded in their play against weak competition. Z Johnson is scary good already@

 

[Volfan2012]

I almost posted this but didn't. Theywill discount it completely because it was against weak competition whereas all of our Freshman are lauded in their play against weak competition. Z Johnson is scary good already@

Have to add Jazzy Davidson to that list as well she is playing really well for USC. We need to get Jaida Civil more involved she needs to shoot more threes and get more shots up with more playing time. 3 of 4 from three certainly need more attempts and I hope to see them.

 

[KnoxLikeUs]

Facts! And this isn’t up for debate. Civil been all over major sports social media platforms with highlights and plays that only Civil & a few other college athletes can make. 37 inch vertical for a freshman female basketball player is unheard of.
In this freshmen class so far it’s Civil, Davidson, Mia Pauldo than everyone else in that order. I like what I’ve seen from Mya Pauldo as well. Deniya Prawl will get it going. One thing she has in her favor is size. Can’t teach size and she’s a big guard built for SEC play.
GBO.

Agreed %. GBO.

 

[th2421]

I wish she hadn't said that publicly. First it was not the absolute that many are making it out to be; second, it tipped our hand to our opponents (even though it was probably already apparent).

Martin was sagging off, clogging the paint, and that's the main reason why we had so many turnovers. I think we will see a lot of teams do this to us - it's the smart play against Barker/Coop/Zee etc. If I were the opposing coach, I would absolutely force the LVs to beat me with the 3. Given this opponent strategy, we are going to have to shoot a ton of 3s in the half-court because that is the only thing that the defense is going to give us.

I was going to say the same thing. Even ETSU and NC State were also playing what looked like a sagging man to me, which, as you said, either led to kickouts to 3, or to turnovers. I think it's part of why the offense has looked so rough so far this season. Yes, part of it is players playing hero ball, but I think part of it is that the team isn't used to this defense and the coaching staff needs to make adjustments.

I went to my first Fairfield game this Saturday, and they are constantly moving on offense. It was quite a stark difference watching three Lady Vols games where we just stood around and watched someone else drive or shoot. I would love to see more off ball movement. Latham is one who I think does this pretty consistently but she's not really getting touches.

 

[chuckiepoo]

I was going to say the same thing. Even ETSU and NC State were also playing what looked like a sagging man to me, which, as you said, either led to kickouts to 3, or to turnovers. I think it's part of why the offense has looked so rough so far this season. Yes, part of it is players playing hero ball, but I think part of it is that the team isn't used to this defense and the coaching staff needs to make adjustments.

I went to my first Fairfield game this Saturday, and they are constantly moving on offense. It was quite a stark difference watching three Lady Vols games where we just stood around and watched someone else drive or shoot. I would love to see more off ball movement. Latham is one who I think does this pretty consistently but she's not really getting touches.

Alyssa has also passed up numerous open threes. Zero threat to shoot from the arc.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Alyssa has also passed up numerous open threes. Zero threat to shoot from the arc.

I'm pretty sure she was not feeling well

 

[madtownvol]

One of the most concerning things to me is that CKC has said she’s ordered less three point shooting. She said coming in she knew that was a weakness, that she still didn’t have a consistent knock down three point shooter. Therefore, the plan was to use the superior size and athleticism to get to the rim. She was willing to change the three point dominant aspect of her system based on need.

Unfortunately, for some reason, the team seems not to have gotten that message. They’re either not understanding or willfully not adhering. And there seems to be no coherent offense in place to replace the early shot clock 3 chunking. To me, that’s evidence of a real problem. Buy in and response seems to lag so far this year. Still plenty of time to fix though.

Houston, we have a problem. I don't think there is a good replacement for the 3 point shooting in todays game. This is not a CKC thing because spread offenses are commonplace throghout WCBB,. If you take away the hockey subbing, the LVs offense was not that different from others except perhaps for taking shots quicker in the shot clock.

When we come up against the better teams (and even mid pack teams) in the SEC, the LVs are simply not going to have an overwhelming physical advantage in the paint. We have seen in past years, how, not having enough 3 pt shooting has limited the team.

On the plus side, Coop;'s three looks much improved,. Nya looks like she could be a floor spreading threat. The Pauldo twins seem to have some range but there is no Jewe type player, at this point at least, who draws defenders out to force her off the line.

For the LVs to be successful with this line-up, the defensive side of their game is going to have get a whole lot better, fast.

Honestly, we have players who can be absolute one-on-one defending monsters but the over aggressive pressing makes it all too easy to get past them or saddle them with fouls.


It is not that damned complicated strategically. Just play lock down half court defense and then throw in a few surprise presses throughout the game.

Hell, just watch film of the glory day LVs when CPS, Hornbuckle, Augustus, Bobbitt, and Anosiki were the immovable object. Bobbitt pested the PG bringing the ball up court and then the rest were on the opponents half court sets like wolves to raw meat.

Coop, Spearman, Civil, Paulado, Boyd, Latham, Wolfenbarger are all capable of defending like fiends in the half court. A shot clock expiration also counts as a TO.

I am ranting so....

 

[knoxvol52]

Houston, we have a problem. I don't think there is a good replacement for the 3 point shooting in todays game. This is not a CKC thing because spread offenses are commonplace throghout WCBB,. If you take away the hockey subbing, the LVs offense was not that different from others except perhaps for taking shots quicker in the shot clock.

When we come up against the better teams (and even mid pack teams) in the SEC, the LVs are simply not going to have an overwhelming physical advantage in the paint. We have seen in past years, how, not having enough 3 pt shooting has limited the team.

On the plus side, Coop;'s three looks much improved,. Nya looks like she could be a floor spreading threat. The Pauldo twins seem to have some range but there is no Jewe type player, at this point at least, who draws defenders out to force her off the line.

For the LVs to be successful with this line-up, the defensive side of their game is going to have get a whole lot better, fast.

Honestly, we have players who can be absolute one-on-one defending monsters but the over aggressive pressing makes it all too easy to get past them or saddle them with fouls.


It is not that damned complicated strategically. Just play lock down half court defense and then throw in a few surprise presses throughout the game.

Hell, just watch film of the glory day LVs when CPS, Hornbuckle, Augustus, Bobbitt, and Anosiki were the immovable object. Bobbitt pested the PG bringing the ball up court and then the rest were on the opponents half court sets like wolves to raw meat.

Coop, Spearman, Civil, Paulado, Boyd, Latham, Wolfenbarger are all capable of defending like fiends in the half court. A shot clock expiration also counts as a TO.

I am ranting so....

 

[TJVol95]

Yikes we can’t shoot free throws or 3 pointers

 

[RetroVol]

It is not that damned complicated strategically. Just play lock down half court defense and then throw in a few surprise presses throughout the game.

Which is basically a suggestion that CKC abandon her system. She has won regularly with 3pt percentages around 31. To me, if defenses sag, then shoot the first good three. Rebound or make them run to the other end where you continue the pressure. Race back and shoot. Keep them running. Over and over. Expect then to make more mistakes than you do so you end up with an advantage in shot attempts. Otherwise, the large-scale substitutions don't make sense.

 

[lvocd]

I hear you, madtown.

I also wish the length of time between substitutions were a little longer and also that more consideration be made to a player having a hot hand or on a great defensive roll. In these first three games I have noticed quite a few times that IMMEDIATELY after a player has just done a great thing and looks fired up that she was platooned out. Every time I have been frustrated that those players' obvious positive momentum was killed immediately after getting it going. Ugh. I think the inability to get on a roll may be one of this particular group's problems. I'd switch it now and then and maybe back off on the constant pressing to see if a group can keep some momentum instead of automatically crushing it every single time. I mean, they could do that occasionally to throw the opponent off a bit and still not ditch the current patterns entirely.

 

[madtownvol]

Which is basically a suggestion that CKC abandon her system. She has won regularly with 3pt percentages around 31. To me, if defenses sag, then shoot the first good three. Rebound or make them run to the other end where you continue the pressure. Race back and shoot. Keep them running. Over and over. Expect then to make more mistakes than you do so you end up with an advantage in shot attempts. Otherwise, the large-scale substitutions don't make sense.

What aspect of her "system" are you talking about exactly?

CKC has just said she wants to get away from the reliance on the 3 ball. Everything you described above refers to her offensive sets not the high pressure full court defense.

Also crashing the boards on missed shots and running back on defense are not compatible strategies.

We have also seen that the LVs against good teams, including the most recent outing against NCST, really can't speed them up into a frenetic track meet game (i.e. "make them run to the other end"). Maybe in short stretches but not the extent that everyone envisions in these hypothetical "cheetah" scenarios.

Last year, this system finished 8th in the SEC. It did get them to the S16 but so did Kellie, who by all accounts on this board, is the most incompetent coach to ever live.

The justifying rationale was that CKC did not have "her players" to implement the system. Well, now she does...

In my view, CKC no longer needs these D2, lower mid major gimmicks. she can recruit great talent, whereas her predecessor struggled in that regard,

You can play 10 players without insane 1 minute subs that break everyone's flow and keeps the team from gelling (see LVocd above).

The we will wear em down theory has been disproved, Even UT-Martin really did not wear down, It was just the massive talent disparity, coupled with slightly better execution, that made the difference.

NCST with a shorter bench and a lot of new faces actually looked fresher than the LVs down the stretch.

Again, I am all in on CKC and want her to succeed but its possible that she is letting her ego-driven desire to prove her system works handicap a talented team.

And to Knoxvol52, a quote from Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment actually seems quite apropos:

Everything was in confusion in the rooms; the servants had already run in and, with frightened faces, had begun to put things in order

 

[Coach Jumper]

View attachment 788657

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[knoxvol52]

What aspect of her "system" are you talking about exactly?

CKC has just said she wants to get away from the reliance on the 3 ball. Everything you described above refers to her offensive sets not the high pressure full court defense.

Also crashing the boards on missed shots and running back on defense are not compatible strategies.

We have also seen that the LVs against good teams, including the most recent outing against NCST, really can't speed them up into a frenetic track meet game (i.e. "make them run to the other end"). Maybe in short stretches but not the extent that everyone envisions in these hypothetical "cheetah" scenarios.

Last year, this system finished 8th in the SEC. It did get them to the S16 but so did Kellie, who by all accounts on this board, is the most incompetent coach to ever live.

The justifying rationale was that CKC did not have "her players" to implement the system. Well, now she does...

In my view, CKC no longer needs these D2, lower mid major gimmicks. she can recruit great talent, whereas her predecessor struggled in that regard,

You can play 10 players without insane 1 minute subs that break everyone's flow and keeps the team from gelling (see LVocd above).

The we will wear em down theory has been disproved, Even UT-Martin really did not wear down, It was just the massive talent disparity, coupled with slightly better execution, that made the difference.

NCST with a shorter bench and a lot of new faces actually looked fresher than the LVs down the stretch.

Again, I am all in on CKC and want her to succeed but its possible that she is letting her ego-driven desire to prove her system works handicap a talented team.

And to Knoxvol52, a quote from Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment actually seems quite apropos:

Everything was in confusion in the rooms; the servants had already run in and, with frightened faces, had begun to put things in order

I agree with the assessment about we have enough talent now and shouldn't have to play the sub game every 40 seconds... Let starting 5 get in a groove and still use the reserves when needed most.




As for the shout-out to me. I really don't know what you're talking about and honestly really don't care... But thanks again for the pop shot because if I wanted to waste my time and look up what that meant, I'm sure it's a snarky remark..

 

[knoxvol52]

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[RetroVol]

In my view, CKC no longer needs these D2, lower mid major gimmicks.

Okay. Got it. Quit what she knows and what has worked for her and do what everyone else does, not what got her here. I understand your point and can respect it. And you may be right.

I don't agree that her approach has been proven not to work. I haven't seen the same kind of press this year that we did last. Could be that's just to get them to learn stuff now she thinks they will need by forcing them to do more of it and she will go back closer to form as the season progresses. Or, she may be moving permanently in your direction. She has said repeatedly that she learned a lot in conference play last year. Also that she didn't push to put in as much of her system this summer as she did last year. I suspect no one but those closest to her know for sure to what extent she is adapting. You may be right. Just have to see what develops over the course of the season.

 

[alexvol]

Houston, we have a problem. I don't think there is a good replacement for the 3 point shooting in todays game. This is not a CKC thing because spread offenses are commonplace throghout WCBB,. If you take away the hockey subbing, the LVs offense was not that different from others except perhaps for taking shots quicker in the shot clock.

When we come up against the better teams (and even mid pack teams) in the SEC, the LVs are simply not going to have an overwhelming physical advantage in the paint. We have seen in past years, how, not having enough 3 pt shooting has limited the team.

On the plus side, Coop;'s three looks much improved,. Nya looks like she could be a floor spreading threat. The Pauldo twins seem to have some range but there is no Jewe type player, at this point at least, who draws defenders out to force her off the line.

For the LVs to be successful with this line-up, the defensive side of their game is going to have get a whole lot better, fast.

Honestly, we have players who can be absolute one-on-one defending monsters but the over aggressive pressing makes it all too easy to get past them or saddle them with fouls.


It is not that damned complicated strategically. Just play lock down half court defense and then throw in a few surprise presses throughout the game.

Hell, just watch film of the glory day LVs when CPS, Hornbuckle, Augustus, Bobbitt, and Anosiki were the immovable object. Bobbitt pested the PG bringing the ball up court and then the rest were on the opponents half court sets like wolves to raw meat.

Coop, Spearman, Civil, Paulado, Boyd, Latham, Wolfenbarger are all capable of defending like fiends in the half court. A shot clock expiration also counts as a TO.

I am ranting so....

Your defensive comments are right on target imo.........

 

[madtownvol]

I agree with the assessment about we have enough talent now and shouldn't have to play the sub game every 40 seconds... Let starting 5 get in a groove and still use the reserves when needed most.




As for the shout-out to me. I really don't know what you're talking about and honestly really don't care... But thanks again for the pop shot because if I wanted to waste my time and look up what that meant, I'm sure it's a snarky remark..

Knox not everything is an argument or an insult.

You mentioned Russian novels, I thought Dostoevsky's phrase "confusion in the rooms" was a decent description of the LV's last few games. I have never picked a bone with you, so I am little surprised you took my comment as a hostile act but I suppose that is becoming the culture of this board.