Game Thread: Lady Vols v NC State, Away, Wed., 4PM, ESPN2, Tues Nov 4th

[madtownvol]

The major reason for the loss first free throws. We foul to much or we get called for fouls to much. We can't lose the foul line and we probably will if were going to take 33 threes in a game.

Reason two was substitution malpractice. I don't know which coach was handling that, but they did a very poor in this game. How do you let Jaida Civil play only 13 minutes when she is 5 for 7 from the field and 2 of 2 from the three. Then there is Alyssa Latham clearly the second best post player yesterday getting only 4 shots of which she made two and only 16 minutes. I could also see a reason for Mya Pauldo to get more than two minutes based on her play in the exhibition game.

Then the players getting the minutes that did not perform Prawl 1 for 6 in 22 minutes, Spearman 1 for 8 close to 30 minutes, Boyd 0 points in 8 minutes and Wolfenbarger 0 in 10 minutes. If you going to sub as much as we do at least target the players that are playing well and let them play the bulk of the minutes. We had way to many players having bad games playing to much and players performing sitting on the bench.

I hope in the next five games which we should win them all that coaches get a better handle on who to play. Yesterday was extremely poor decision making by the staff on who should've been in the game.

The one sub that bugged me was late in the game. The LVs had a combo that was working, spearheaded by Cooper and they took the lead on Pauldo's 3 pointer. There was about 2 minutes left in the game and the staff subbed Cooper (much to the announcers amazement, if not everyone else). She was only out for about 40 seconds of game time but the LVs had a quick series of bad offensive and defensive possessions and gave up 5 straight points and the LVs never regained control of the game. The reality is that your best player does not need a short break in the last 2 minutes. I mean, Cooper can play 31 minutes but 32 would somehow over tax her?

That was a mindless and momentum breaking sub.

 

[GameTime]

The one sub that bugged me was late in the game. The LVs had a combo that was working, spearheaded by Cooper and they took the lead on Pauldo's 3 pointer. There was about 2 minutes left in the game and the staff subbed Cooper (much to the announcers amazement, if not everyone else). She was only out for about 40 seconds of game time but the LVs had a quick series of bad offensive and defensive positions and gave up 5 straight points and the LVs never regained control of the game. The reality is that your best player does not need a short break in the last 2 minutes. I mean, Cooper can play 31 minutes but 32 would somehow over tax here?

That was a mindless and momentum breaking sub.

Good thoughts Mad.

 

[lvocd]

The one sub that bugged me was late in the game. The LVs had a combo that was working, spearheaded by Cooper and they took the lead on Pauldo's 3 pointer. There was about 2 minutes left in the game and the staff subbed Cooper (much to the announcers amazement, if not everyone else). She was only out for about 40 seconds of game time but the LVs had a quick series of bad offensive and defensive positions and gave up 5 straight points and the LVs never regained control of the game. The reality is that your best player does not need a short break in the last 2 minutes. I mean, Cooper can play 31 minutes but 32 would somehow over tax here?

That was a mindless and momentum breaking sub.

The film is going to not only open the eyes of the players, but the staff as well. In the heat of the moment the staff probably didn't think that short rest would have much of an impact on the outcome. But it's going to stick out like a sore thumb for staff today. Lessons will be learned by everyone because of this game, and that's a good thing with UCLA looming.

 

[LV renaissance]

There was a lot of 4 players standing and watching somebody go 1v 1, including tied late in the game as we watched a freshman force a bad attempt, just staring and watching her.
Same thing on D. Just watch layup after layup.
A lot to work on before blaming refs for anything.

I had that perception too, especially when Coop had the ball. It reminded me of some teams who have one superstar and then other players get passive and expect the one player to do it all. This is not the model we need give how much talent we have and the team ball strategy we are supposed to use. Coop did play like a superstar and we still lost.

 

[Volfan2012]

The one sub that bugged me was late in the game. The LVs had a combo that was working, spearheaded by Cooper and they took the lead on Pauldo's 3 pointer. There was about 2 minutes left in the game and the staff subbed Cooper (much to the announcers amazement, if not everyone else). She was only out for about 40 seconds of game time but the LVs had a quick series of bad offensive and defensive positions and gave up 5 straight points and the LVs never regained control of the game. The reality is that your best player does not need a short break in the last 2 minutes. I mean, Cooper can play 31 minutes but 32 would somehow over tax here?

That was a mindless and momentum breaking sub.

Agreed didn't like it and JMO the subbing was terrible all day. Coaches just don't seem to be in touch with who is playing well and who is having a terrible day. We just say two minutes up we need to sub.

 

[madtownvol]

I had that perception too, especially when Coop had the ball. It reminded me of some teams who have one superstar and then other players get passive and expect the one player to do it all. This is not the model we need give how much talent we have and the team ball strategy we are supposed to use. Coop did play like a superstar and we still lost.

That is also a cost of having a freshman PG in her first real game. The PG needs to orchestrate the offense and make sure everyone gets involved. Hopefully, Mia can fast track on that learning curve.

 

[Volfan2012]

I had that perception too, especially when Coop had the ball. It reminded me of some teams who have one superstar and then other players get passive and expect the one player to do it all. This is not the model we need give how much talent we have and the team ball strategy we are supposed to use. Coop did play like a superstar and we still lost.

We got about 80 minutes of players that were playing well and 40 of average play and another 80 of players doing absolutely nothing. Wasn't enough this day. Two factors that will kill us in every big game are fouling and to many threes.

 

[Volfan2012]

That is also a cost of having a freshman PG in her first real game. The PG needs to orchestrate the offense and make sure everyone gets involved. Hopefully, Mia can fast track on that learning curve.

Mia was way off in this game probably a little to hyped for her first real game. Took some early and bad shots then got passive. She was then letting Cooper lead the offense Mia was just bringing it up passing to Cooper and letting her do whatever she decided with the ball pass or shoot.

 

[LV renaissance]

In the post-game interview she talked about how it was her first collegiate game and here she was playing a top 10 team. She said this in what seemed more like awe rather than as an excuse.

 

[madtownvol]

We got about 80 minutes of players that were playing well and 40 of average play and another 80 of players doing absolutely nothing. Wasn't enough this day. Two factors that will kill us in every big game are fouling and to many threes.

Back to the "Cheetah" theory, the LVs are going to absolutely overwhelm weaker teams with this frenetic, kamikaze style of play. Against well coached teams with athletic and skilled players, we saw last season that the LVs will also need better half court execution and more defensive discipline to win. Their record against top 10 teams is not great,. I think it is like something like 1 win (Uconn) and 8 losses. Many of those losses have been close ones, like LSU but that is starting to look like a pattern that needs to change soon. You can't get to the final four this way.

 

[Volfan2012]

Going to come back to the "Cheetah" theory, the LVs are going to absolutely overwhelm weaker teams with this frenetic, kamikaze style of play. Against well coached teams with athletic and skilled players, we saw last season that the LVs need better half court execution and more defensive discipline to win. Their record against top 10 teams is not great,. I think it is like something like 1 win (Uconn) and 8 losses. Many of those losses have been close ones, like LSU but that is starting to look like a pattern that needs to change soon. You can't get to the final four this way.

NC St only took17 threes they were consistently driving the ball and getting shots in the paint. We on the other hand took 33 threes at least 7 were in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock. Could we have won if we had drove the ball on ten of those possessions instead of taking a three. Who knows? Odds say we would make at least three shots doing that vs 10 empty possessions shooting quick threes. I know the three is the home run ball and it has to be part of your offense, but it shouldn't be ten seconds into a shot clock plenty of time to get a three if you can't get anything else.

 

[th2421]

Mia was way off in this game probably a little to hyped for her first real game. Took some early and bad shots then got passive. She was then letting Cooper lead the offense Mia was just bringing it up passing to Cooper and letting her do whatever she decided with the ball pass or shoot.

It seemed to me like she struggled a bit with NC State's length and size. She wasn't able to penetrate and dish like we saw in the exhibition (or the McDAA game, etc.). She'll adjust, but it may take some time.

Won't get much opportunity in the next few games - ETSU and UT Martin each only start 1 player who's 6' or taller, and Belmont (one 6'3" starter and one 6'0") and MTSU (6'1" and 6'1") aren't much better.

 

[Coach Jumper]

all

It seemed to me like she struggled a bit with NC State's length and size. She wasn't able to penetrate and dish like we saw in the exhibition (or the McDAA game, etc.). She'll adjust, but it may take some time.

Won't get much opportunity in the next few games - ETSU and UT Martin each only start 1 player who's 6' or taller, and Belmont (one 6'3" starter and one 6'0") and MTSU (6'1" and 6'1") aren't much better.

we cqan really do in those games is work on endurance and maybe examining our knowledge of how to use the back-door, which was wide open all night

 

[Volfan2012]

I don't know if the subbing system we use is ever going to be something that will be useful against the elite teams. It definitely can destroy the average teams. I will say that there has to be a better pattern to the subbing it has to make sense it just can't be random all the time. You have to know who you are replacing and your role on the floor. You just can't be in there to play a random two minutes of running up and down the floor. Coaches have to know who is playing well and who isn't.

I will never quit complaining about the minutes Latham and Civil got in this game together they shoot 7 of 9 from the floor and all we can give them is 29 minutes combined.

Long way to go, but right now the players that seemed to have separated from the others as far as playing both ends effectively are Cooper, Barker, Civil, and Latham. Those four should be playing a minimum of 25 minutes each. I know Mia also will have to play that amount of minutes no doubt she is the best point guard right now on the team. Until they start showing a lot more than they did yesterday Spearman, Robertson, Prawl, Boyd and everyone else we play should be resigned to split up about 60 to 70 minutes between them.

No sighting of Wynn or Hurst looks like they will be the two out of the rotation when we play elite teams.

 

[madtownvol]

I don't know if the subbing system we use is ever going to be something that will be useful against the elite teams. It definitely can destroy the average teams. I will say that there has to be a better pattern to the subbing it has to make sense it just can't be random all the time. You have to know who you are replacing and your role on the floor. You just can't be in there to play a random two minutes of running up and down the floor. Coaches have to know who is playing well and who isn't.

I will never quit complaining about the minutes Latham and Civil got in this game together they shoot 7 of 9 from the floor and all we can give them is 29 minutes combined.

Long way to go, but right now the players that seemed to have separated from the others as far as playing both ends effectively are Cooper, Barker, Civil, and Latham. Those four should be playing a minimum of 25 minutes each. I know Mia also will have to play that amount of minutes no doubt she is the best point guard right now on the team. Until they start showing a lot more than they did yesterday Spearman, Robertson, Prawl, Boyd and everyone else we play should be resigned to split up about 60 to 70 minutes between them.

No sighting of Wynn or Hurst looks like they will be the two out of the rotation when we play elite teams.

I agree with everything except Zee. She is our best "big'.

[I don't think Wolfenberger's limitation are going away (a 5th year senior is who she is. She is not suddenly going to get stronger or develop better hands in the paint).

If Zee had a game on par with her better, last season performances, the LVs likely win this game.

The staff has to stick with Zee and hope that she finds her groove sooner than later.

 

[Volfan2012]

I agree with everything except Zee. She is out best "big'.

[I don't think Wolfenberger's limitation are going away (a 5th year senior is who she is. She is not suddenly going to get stronger or develop better hands in the paint).

If Zee had a game on par with her better, last season performances, the LVs likely win this game.

The staff has to stick with Zee and hope that she finds her groove sooner than later.

Zee will come around, but she was a slow starter last season and really got strong late. Looks like that is her way again.

 

[RespectAPA]

Their record against top 10 teams is not great,. I think it is like something like 1 win (Uconn) and 8 losses. Many of those losses have been close ones, like LSU but that is starting to look like a pattern that needs to change soon. You can't get to the final four this way.

I'd haggle for @Buckeyes under tournament pressure getting credited here. That's 2-7, (can't figure out who loss 8 would be) but with a median margin of -3.

(We could add Kentucky and Vanderbilt to the 'good team losses', but then we'd have to add Iowa, Alabama, FSU, Mississippi, and Mississippi State to the win side if we're being broad enough to add those losses)

 

[Rooster1]

Zee will come around, but she was a slow starter last season and really got strong late. Looks like that is her way again.

Robertson will adjust quickly also, she is a career 16 ppg player. She rebounded well but her shot was just off a bit in this game, she will be a contributor sooner than later no doubt. Latham will likely get more minutes going forward, she looks solid as hell. Barker looked really smooth, but only two rebounds for her size was partly due to her drifting outside to shoot threes (5 threes taken) and though she hit 3 of them you have to believe she would be more useful working in the paint more with her size. She has all the tools to be dominant. Zee did well on the boards, she was just off shooting wise in this game, she will bounce back, it happens. Civil looks real, she will work her way into way more minutes.

I agree with all who feel the sub patterns need tweaking, best players need to be on the floor in crunch time, meaning the last 2-3 minutes of every quarter in close games. As for the full court press, everyone has already pegged it, against really good ball handling guards/teams there needs to be more protection against easy lay ins. You can still press without selling out by doubling on every ball handler.

Nothing from this game changes my viewpoint that UT will challenge for the SEC title, just some tweaks that will come naturally which will change things tremendously for this super talented team. The coaches are smart enough to make the adjustments with this talent pool.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I don't know if the subbing system we use is ever going to be something that will be useful against the elite teams. It definitely can destroy the average teams. I will say that there has to be a better pattern to the subbing it has to make sense it just can't be random all the time. You have to know who you are replacing and your role on the floor. You just can't be in there to play a random two minutes of running up and down the floor. Coaches have to know who is playing well and who isn't.

I will never quit complaining about the minutes Latham and Civil got in this game together they shoot 7 of 9 from the floor and all we can give them is 29 minutes combined.

Our subbing didn't lose this game until the last 2-5 minutes,,Early in the game camera shots of Wes Moore showed a very frustrated man and we were up by ten at the half...the 16-2 run to open the 3rd with no timeout didn't kill us either (and didn't help us) as it was a one possession game with 2 min to go

THAT is when the mass subbing had to stop and the calculated subbing needed to take place.

Zee will come around, but she was a slow starter last season and really got strong late. Looks like that is her way again.

Zee and Ruby were very tight,,,I know it affected her whole persona, private and in-game,,,she'll bounce back once she has a chance to emote

 

[lvocd]

I will never quit complaining about the minutes Latham and Civil got in this game together they shoot 7 of 9 from the floor and all we can give them is 29 minutes combined.

Agreed. Civil, especially, looks like she could play 40 minutes and 4 overtimes without a break, and I kinda think her energy warrants more minutes. She is like Rae Burrell was as far as coming in and making things happen, only Civil is far more under control. I'm extremely happy she's a Lady Vol.

Latham is a no-nonsense workhorse, and the staff needs to carve out more minutes for her, IMO.

 

[madtownvol]

I'd haggle for @Buckeyes under tournament pressure getting credited here. That's 2-7, (can't figure out who loss 8 would be) but with a median margin of -3.

(We could add Kentucky and Vanderbilt to the good team losses, but then we'd have to add Iowa, Alabama, FSU, Mississippi, and Mississippi State to the win side if we're being broad enough to add those losses)

Just went through the results NC.ST. is the 8th top 10 ranked team have faced under CKC (OSU was 13th and KY was 15th). SEC is a tough conference (with LSU, TX, SC, and OK) and that makes for a 1-7 record against top 10 ranked teams

 

[Rickster]

I agree with everything except Zee. She is our best "big'.

[I don't think Wolfenberger's limitation are going away (a 5th year senior is who she is. She is not suddenly going to get stronger or develop better hands in the paint).

If Zee had a game on par with her better, last season performances, the LVs likely win this game.

The staff has to stick with Zee and hope that she finds her groove sooner than later.

Agree. Unfortunately, this is 2 consecutive, less than stellar, games she's had. She has the ability so hopefully it will get figured out soon.

 

[Rooster1]

Our subbing didn't lose this game until the last 2-5 minutes,,Early in the game camera shots of Wes Moore showed a very frustrated man and we were up by ten at the half… 16-2 run to open the 3rd with no timeout didn't kill us either (and didn't help us) as it was a one possession game with 2 min to go

THAT is when the mass subbing had to stop and the calculated subbing needed to take place.


Zee and Ruby were very tight,,,I know it affected her whole persona, private and in-game,,,she'll bounce back once she has a chance to emote

UT was up by 4 at the half.

 

[RetroVol]

I'd haggle for @Buckeyes under tournament pressure getting credited here. That's 2-7, (can't figure out who loss 8 would be) but with a median margin of -3.

And, if you go back to when CKC was hired, we weren't supposed to even be competitive against the best teams. Unranked pre-season. Could last season have been better? Yeah. Could have been a lot worse, For sure.

Kim has consistently said it takes time for a team to learn and implement her system. I'm prepared to believe her. And, in that regard, perhaps some of us have been expecting too much of transfers, especially bigs, in one year.

I'm looking forward to how she addresses problems I am sure she sees within the parameters of her system. To me, she has earned lots of trust for that effort.

 

[Rooster1]

Just went through the results NC.ST. is the 8th top 10 ranked team have faced under CKC (OSU was 13th and KY was 15th). SEC is a tough conference (with LSU, TX, SC, and OK) and that makes for a 1-7 record against top 10 ranked teams

Mad, in truth only one of those 8 games is on this roster. Have to believe this roster would have been more successful in those other games, given the superior talent level now. Don’t think we can say there is a trend, it’s one game for this squad. Even the 7 games against top tens last year were quite close and that was with a much less athletic and talented roster.