Game Thread: #23/25 LADY VOLS VS. #8/8 MISSISSIPPI STATE

[Volfaninfl2]

Rae stepped up last night.
Btw, Mississippi State had 14 steals to our 4, 3 of our steals were by Rae. Yes, she had 6 turnovers, but she put the team on her back last night. Great “Start” for Rae.

Per utsports.com:

Have A Day, Rae: Sophomore Rae Burrell turned in a double-double in her first-ever start with a game-high 20 points and 10 rebounds. It's her third double-double of the season and her 10th double-digit scoring performance of the season, four of which have come during SEC play.

 

[Rooster1]

Count up their five stars not denying they missed on some players every school does. Still everyone in their starting five was a five star excepting the Stanford transfer and she was a highly rated player as well.

Women's Basketball This is their roster a lot of highly rated and five star players on there. Their situation is too many new players in the lineup that have never played in the system just like Tennessee this season. They have been a turnover machine as well just like Tennessee. When they get more experience as a team and players get adapted to the system they will again begin to rise. They lost all five starters and we lost four starters both in a similar situation except they didn't have their post because of injury for a long while now that she is back they are starting to win a little. To add they still have 13 players and as far as I am concerned don't care if they ever win another game. You seem to want to implicate that they have no talent well then blame Hoopgurlz and Prospect Nation because a lot of these girls on their roster are very highly rated.

Star rating has nothing to do with if a player is a miss at the college level. Even if they were given a 5 star rating, if they don't play like one, or if they never meaningfully help the team then its a miss. ND has had their share of misses (players rated highly but didn't pan out that way). Again, its not ideal but a team can run with mostly sophs and freshmen and do well if the talent is there. It should be noted also that ND from 2016-2018 did not recruit classes that were highly ranked....but in those 3 years of classes they landed 8 top 100 players (which isn't a bunch compared to many programs), and from that group of 8 they have 2 contributing to their team this season, Gilbert (#27 ranked player, 5 star:13.8 ppg) and Vaughn (#56 ranked player, 4 star: 11.6 ppg). Those are not misses, but not elite either. Cosgrove (#68 ranked player, 5 star: 2.5ppg) is an example of a miss. Of the other 5 from the top 100 recruits in that span, 3 left the program, 1 is inj (but not considered high quality) and 1 was a big hit (Young, #1 draft pick).

 

[GameTime]

I made myself watch this game again.....It was a horror show, almost like watching Hostel waiting for a body part to be cut off....

As long as Horston handles the ball, we will lead the league in turnovers, which will lead to more and more losses.......She may look like a division 1 ball player, but she sure doesn't play like one....

Key needs to get an attitude....Late in the game, the final outcome was not in doubt, the tall MSS player throws a hard elbow into her to get rebounding position, and she just takes it....Even the announcer made a comment on how hard the elbow was, and oh yes, no whistle either...

We just suck....

 

[DEEFEEZEE]

Hesitate to even ask, but what "incident?"

I believe it was in the middle of the 3rd quarter Harris was in the game she got pulled Harris said something as she returned to the bench there was a timeout called the camera was on the Tennessee bench and coach Harper had Harris by both arms trying to talk to her and she was ignoring coach and pulling away.

 

[Rixxx]

I believe the ND roster of 13 = 4 walkons. ( A walkon from last year was given a scholarship and is seeing minutes by default.)

 

[creekdipper]

I believe it was in the middle of the 3rd quarter Harris was in the game she got pulled Harris said something as she returned to the bench there was a timeout called the camera was on the Tennessee bench and coach Harper had Harris by both arms trying to talk to her and she was ignoring coach and pulling away.

Okay, thanks.

 

[madtownvol]

I made myself watch this game again.....It was a horror show, almost like watching Hostel waiting for a body part to be cut off....

As long as Horston handles the ball, we will lead the league in turnovers, which will lead to more and more losses.......She may look like a division 1 ball player, but she sure doesn't play like one....

Key needs to get an attitude....Late in the game, the final outcome was not in doubt, the tall MSS player throws a hard elbow into her to get rebounding position, and she just takes it....Even the announcer made a comment on how hard the elbow was, and oh yes, no whistle either...

We just suck....

I don't know an elbow to throat can take a little aggressiveness out of you. I think the point of emphasis needs to be on the "no foul" call and such a blatant one or the mystery foul called on KK that set Kellie off. No officiating did not cost the LVs the game but it sure did not help either.

I can count four or five times the LVs had clean blocks or swipes and were called for fouls and conversely, where MissSt. mugged us and the refs swallowed their whistel

 

[Amb3096]

I believe it was in the middle of the 3rd quarter Harris was in the game she got pulled Harris said something as she returned to the bench there was a timeout called the camera was on the Tennessee bench and coach Harper had Harris by both arms trying to talk to her and she was ignoring coach and pulling away.

Kamara must know that she can get away with that since she's an indispensable part of the rotation.

 

[Lucy]

I got through that post, had to reread it several times for clarity due to the boycott on punctuations. If I indeed understand your thought pattern now, you believe ND did not miss on several (or any) recruits the past few years, or at least you feel that is not the central issue to their recent demise. Now, go ask any ND fan in the "know" and they will explain that in the past 3 cycles they have had misses on highly rated players each cycle, and it caught up to them.

Nope, sure they missed on kids. The number 1 class missed on some kids they wanted. ND had 5,19,7,11 ranked recruiting classes the last four years. They are littered with 5 stars. Their issue is not recruiting.

 

[Darth_Vol]

I believe it was in the middle of the 3rd quarter Harris was in the game she got pulled Harris said something as she returned to the bench there was a timeout called the camera was on the Tennessee bench and coach Harper had Harris by both arms trying to talk to her and she was ignoring coach and pulling away.

Impossible. These players respect Kellie...

 

[Coach Jumper]

I believe it was in the middle of the 3rd quarter Harris was in the game she got pulled Harris said something as she returned to the bench there was a timeout called the camera was on the Tennessee bench and coach Harper had Harris by both arms trying to talk to her and she was ignoring coach and pulling away.

Not there, but I saw what you saw

 

[PG1]

I don't know an elbow to throat can take a little aggressiveness out of you. I think the point of emphasis needs to be on the "no foul" call and such a blatant one or the mystery foul called on KK that set Kellie off. No officiating did not cost the LVs the game but it sure did not help either.

I can count four or five times the LVs had clean blocks or swipes and were called for fouls and conversely, where MissSt. mugged us and the refs swallowed their whistel

That’s our problem we are trying to swipe and block everything instead of playing D with our feet contesting the shot then boxing out and securing the rebound. Our players celebrate a blocked shot like they just won the damn lottery.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Dunno about that. Here in East Tennessee, had several main roads closed due to flooding.

Also had several local school systems closed for the entire week due to illness. In my 65 years, never seen that happen here.

Fair, but I'm betting there will be a lot more than 8,000 who brave the flooded roads and miraculously recover from the flu to show up for the Kentucky men's game tomorrow...

 

[Coach Jumper]

Fair, but I'm betting there will be a lot more than 8,000 who brave the flooded roads and miraculously recover from the flu to show up for the Kentucky men's game tomorrow...

You are probably right, in every single college venue in the game of BB except for a rare few...
like the uConnies, men's game: average 7,829 and Women's 10,096...This is very rare indeed


But consider this... As recent as 2015-16, UT had finished first or second in home attendance, with the Lady Vols topping the charts 18 times since 1994-95. The Lady Vols had averaged more than 10,000 fans at home for the prior 20 years prior to 2015-16 and had a high of 16,565 in 1998-99

 

[LasVegasBill23]

Did they have a new coach and a new system after what was a run of questionable coaching? Not quite the same situation now is it?

Orange Maniac.... like ur posts... but are you saying here that the fact that we have new coach and new system explain the 23 turnovers?

 

[LasVegasBill23]

I made myself watch this game again.....It was a horror show, almost like watching Hostel waiting for a body part to be cut off....

As long as Horston handles the ball, we will lead the league in turnovers, which will lead to more and more losses.......She may look like a division 1 ball player, but she sure doesn't play like one....

Key needs to get an attitude....Late in the game, the final outcome was not in doubt, the tall MSS player throws a hard elbow into her to get rebounding position, and she just takes it....Even the announcer made a comment on how hard the elbow was, and oh yes, no whistle either...

We just suck....

Yes GT and out gals have to HUSTLE.... the second quarter steal when the Ms St player ran along the left side of our player and just took the ball.... wow... and our bigs frequently are not hustling.... at least in the shots i am seeing.... Have to hand it to Danbury .... bad in first half but obvious hustle more than our team in the second half.....

 

[Coach Jumper]

Did they have a new coach and a new system after what was a run of questionable coaching? Not quite the same situation now is it?

Vic's first year at MS was 13 wins 17 losses 2012

 

[Volfaninfl2]

I made myself watch this game again.....It was a horror show, almost like watching Hostel waiting for a body part to be cut off....

As long as Horston handles the ball, we will lead the league in turnovers, which will lead to more and more losses.......She may look like a division 1 ball player, but she sure doesn't play like one....

Key needs to get an attitude....Late in the game, the final outcome was not in doubt, the tall MSS player throws a hard elbow into her to get rebounding position, and she just takes it....Even the announcer made a comment on how hard the elbow was, and oh yes, no whistle either...

We just suck....

Hi GameTime. I understand how you feel, but you know, I just sort of saw the game differently. We were playing a top 10 ranked team, whether they deserve to be, or not, and we have one dependable scorer who was out sick with the flu, and yet, even though few thought our team would win this game even with Rennia playing, our team was hanging with them, down by only 8 at the half. I was extremely proud of their effort, and excited in the second half when they cut the lead to 6 or 7. Then the team that was expected to win, did.

As far as as the elbow to Key and her lack of response, it was to her throat, she looked like she might collapse, and yes, ridiculously, there was no call.

Concerning Jordan, did you see that last 3 shot she made at the end of the game, when it didn’t much matter? It was a thing of beauty. She needs more confidence and experience to finish all her shots, and to protect the ball. We can all see she has tons of upside, and she’s going to be a star, we just want it now. After seeing the massive improvement of Rae and Jaz from their freshman year to this year, I expect to see a massive improvement in Jordan and Tamari from their freshman year to next year. We have a lot to look forward to.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Hi GameTime. I understand how you feel, but you know, I just sort of saw the game differently. We were playing a top 10 ranked team, whether they deserve to be, or not, and we have one dependable scorer who was out sick with the flu, and yet, even though few thought our team would win this game even with Rennia playing, our team was hanging with them, down by only 8 at the half. I was extremely proud of their effort, and excited in the second half when they cut the lead to 6 or 7. Then the team that was expected to win, did.

As far as as the elbow to Key and her lack of response, it was to her throat, she looked like she might collapse, and yes, ridiculously, there was no call.

Concerning Jordan, did you see that last 3 shot she made at the end of the game, when it didn’t much matter? It was a thing of beauty. She needs more confidence and experience to finish all her shots, and to protect the ball. We can all see she has tons of upside, and she’s going to be a star, we just want it now. After seeing the massive improvement of Rae and Jaz from their freshman year to this year, I expect to see a massive improvement in Jordan and Tamari from their freshman year to next year. We have a lot to look forward to.

I was surprised they didn't go to film on the elbow to her throat..it was not accidental

Agree on your assessment of JH,,,She needs to be sat down with and told that she is better than what she is presenting and needs to put this weight she seems to be carrying away and get back to enjoying the game like she did at season's start...She needs to hear the right words.

 

[Volfan2012]

Star rating has nothing to do with if a player is a miss at the college level. Even if they were given a 5 star rating, if they don't play like one, or if they never meaningfully help the team then its a miss. ND has had their share of misses (players rated highly but didn't pan out that way). Again, its not ideal but a team can run with mostly sophs and freshmen and do well if the talent is there. It should be noted also that ND from 2016-2018 did not recruit classes that were highly ranked....but in those 3 years of classes they landed 8 top 100 players (which isn't a bunch compared to many programs), and from that group of 8 they have 2 contributing to their team this season, Gilbert (#27 ranked player, 5 star:13.8 ppg) and Vaughn (#56 ranked player, 4 star: 11.6 ppg). Those are not misses, but not elite either. Cosgrove (#68 ranked player, 5 star: 2.5ppg) is an example of a miss. Of the other 5 from the top 100 recruits in that span, 3 left the program, 1 is inj (but not considered high quality) and 1 was a big hit (Young, #1 draft pick).

I'm glad you said that because a lot of people on this site think that star ratings is the ultimate and that Tennessee is loaded. Evidently we can agree that just because you are rated a five star player does not mean you will be one or play like one. You also left out several players that were higher ranked than the ones you mentioned like Brunel and others.

 

[Volfan2012]

Let me just say this about the Miss State talent situation versus Tennessee and move on:

Brown versus Bibby easy win for Bibby she is the much better player.
Jackson versus Horston both five stars but at this time Jackson is playing better
Key vs Carter Carter is a sophomore is much further along than Key and a better athlete than KK
Danberry vs Massengill A senior versus a sophomore and even though Massengill has improved and playing better Danberry wins this matchup
Taylor vs Burrell the one matchup that we actually would be favored going into the game.

Their bench versus our bench overall what we had on the bench for the game was not even close to what they had in player ratings, experience, or talent. So the people who want to say we had the more talented team please tell me which matchups I have presented that we were actually better on the floor Thursday night. If you can show me where we had the edge we can go from there.

 

[Orange Maniac]

Orange Maniac.... like ur posts... but are you saying here that the fact that we have new coach and new system explain the 23 turnovers?

Didn't think it hard to understand personally.
1. No players with on the court experience to speak of except for 1 player.
2. No on the court experience means no experience with the other players in knowing how they react and move.
3. Different system from the coaches for the players previously here.
4. Freshmen having to play extended minutes which, as we have seen with other teams can be successful if mixed in with veterans ingrained in the system whether they were starters or not from the previous team. We don't have anyone familiar with the system because it's new.
5. The main issue in my opinion with turnovers is mental. This team has proven it can play with anyone for a while. The problem comes in when they panic mentally when faced with pressure and made to play faster than they want to play. There is a lot of picking up the dribble with no idea beforehand of what you are going to do with the ball. Never, ever, pick up the dribble unless you know what you are going to do with the ball. We pick up the ball, panic sets in and we them throw a pass straight to the other team or near enough that it's picked off.
6. Lack of execution of simple things. Passing to a post with the pass at their knees or ankles. Passes off line so position is lost just to get the ball.
7. I don't see turnovers improving until each player makes it a priority and gets tired of tapping their chest and saying "my bad."

There is a ton more I could say and many here will say "they don't coach them to ___________________" . Fill in the blank. I think some thinks the staff just shows up and watches Netflix or something. Yes, they do coach them to "fill in the blank". I think that is why you are seeing Kellie being a little more perturbed about their performance. The players are not executing what they do in practice or what they have been taught. It has to be frustrating to see what you have implemented not being executed when you know they know what to do. It's going to take time. I think Kellie has shown she wants some mentally tough, very good ball players who may not be the best athletes but can run a system like clockwork with who she has been recruiting. Several new recruits remind me of Kellie when she played. We need a mix of superior athletes with heady, basketball smart players. If you can get one with both like Parker, the meeks and others you are set.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Jackson versus Horston both five stars but at this time Jackson is playing better

And here is your problem in a nutshell. Horston was actually rated higher than Jackson. Both are true freshmen. Why is Jackson playing better? Coaching. It isn't a talent issue...

 

[Volfan2012]

And here is your problem in a nutshell. Horston was actually rated higher than Jackson. Both are true freshmen. Why is Jackson playing better? Coaching. It isn't a talent issue...

Who knows my theory is, and of course I know you think it's wrong, we'll say that in advance even though I know you will have to repeat it in another post. I think that all Jackson has to do is play the off guard and shoot the ball. Jackson has no other responsibilities on her team. She is in a no pressure freshman. Horston has been cast in the role of making the offense work or a team leader. I think that is a lot of pressure on a freshman. I also don't think at this time in her career should be playing a key position like point guard. The reason she plays there is out of necessity we have no one else except Massengill and she can't go 40 minutes at that position.

 

[creekdipper]

And here is your problem in a nutshell. Horston was actually rated higher than Jackson. Both are true freshmen. Why is Jackson playing better? Coaching. It isn't a talent issue...

Then again, with a entire college career to evaluate and all the resources available to NFL scouts, Tom Brady was drafted in the 2000 sixth round at #199 overall.

To put that in perspective, consider that the first round that year included such stalwarts as R. J. Sowall and Trung Canidate.

Just saying that evaluation services rely a lot upon projection. They're not an exact science.

Also, Jordan has been asked to shoulder a lot of responsibility by default that has sped up the process and sometimes placed her in unenviable positions by default. The weak early schedule seemed to be a good training ground, but it wasn't ideal preparation for having to play 38 minutes against Top Ten teams.