Fulmer debate extravaganza (merged)

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#4,703
#4,703
VegasVol said:
Actually, what's "not even debatable" is how wrong Tennessee fans like you were in assessing talent. Did you see the Florida teams from 1993-1997? Did you know their recruiting status coming in? Did you watch how they performed in the NFL? We had a great QB; they had good QBs, and good RBs, and good WRs, and good OL, and a stacked defense. I remember Tennessee fans saying anyone who said florida would have more skill players in the NFL for longer than Tennessee back in the mid-90's was an "idiot"; it turned out the Tennessee fans were the idiots.

Basically, when a Fulmer team played well, fans attributed it to talent; when it didn't, they attributed it to coaching. Reality was a lot different; we had talent, but it was not overwhelming talent, and Fulmer's talent-to-win ratio was no different, and slightly better, than many of his competitors, including some celebrated names. Tennessee fans just refused to recognize it.
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UT put more players into the pros during the 90s than Florida. That's a fact
 
#4,704
#4,704
VegasVol said:
Actually, what's "not even debatable" is how wrong Tennessee fans like you were in assessing talent. Did you see the Florida teams from 1993-1997? Did you know their recruiting status coming in? Did you watch how they performed in the NFL? We had a great QB; they had good QBs, and good RBs, and good WRs, and good OL, and a stacked defense. I remember Tennessee fans saying anyone who said florida would have more skill players in the NFL for longer than Tennessee back in the mid-90's was an "idiot"; it turned out the Tennessee fans were the idiots.

Basically, when a Fulmer team played well, fans attributed it to talent; when it didn't, they attributed it to coaching. Reality was a lot different; we had talent, but it was not overwhelming talent, and Fulmer's talent-to-win ratio was no different, and slightly better, than many of his competitors, including some celebrated names. Tennessee fans just refused to recognize it.
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Really? I don't know of any Florida back that played as long as Charlie Garner. I don't know of any Florida backs that were as good as Charlie Garner or Jamal Lewis in the NFL. Even James Stewart played for several seasons.
We all know Manning made Nash.

Please name the Florida receivers that made big impacts in the NFL. I can think of one running back too: Fred Taylor. Name the others
 
#4,705
#4,705
BelAirVol said:
Really? I don't know of any Florida back that played as long as Charlie Garner. I don't know of any Florida backs that were as good as Charlie Garner or Jamal Lewis in the NFL. Even James Stewart played for several seasons.
We all know Manning made Nash.

Please name the Florida receivers that made big impacts in the NFL. I can think of one running back too: Fred Taylor. Name the others
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Futile effort. You're exactly right in that the homerun hitters were at UT. Spurrier's innovation made Wuerffel. Hell, he made a lot of it and the defenses were better until about 97, then we were more talented there, but squandered it.
 
#4,706
#4,706
VegasVol said:
And people still delusional enough to say firing a coach to go 7-6, 6-7, and likely another 7-6 is a great improvement over a coach who won 9 or more games in 4 of his last 6 seasons, and that was actually the worst six-year stint of his entire tenure. The problem with the Fulmer haters is they can't admit their prediction of a rosy post-Fulmer world were atrociously wrong.
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So everyone that was on board with the Fulmer firing is a hater? Nice logic. No wonder you get owned in these debates.

LIke Gibbs, I thought we had you straigtened out on statistics. They mean nothing without detail so that little quip in there about winning 9 games in 4 of the last six seasons is meaningless unless we provide detail.

I don't know about you, but I think it's foolish to brag about a nine or ten win season when you lose to Florida 59-20, Alabama 41-17 and California 45-31 in that season.

MY last question: So you should allow the head coach to continue to drive the program into the ground because the next coach might not be IMMEDIATELY better? Knowing that the former head coach left the cupboard bare
 
#4,709
#4,709
BelAirVol said:
So everyone that was on board with the Fulmer firing is a hater? Nice logic. No wonder you get owned in these debates.

LIke Gibbs, I thought we had you straigtened out on statistics. They mean nothing without detail so that little quip in there about winning 9 games in 4 of the last six seasons is meaningless unless we provide detail.

I don't know about you, but I think it's foolish to brag about a nine or ten win season when you lose to Florida 59-20, Alabama 41-17 and California 45-31.
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the detail blows it up. He and gibbs use selective stats like marketing outfits that don't possess of a whit of credibility. The idiocy about number of NFL draftees on a roster is some of the dumbest stuff ever, but the best is the Vegas odds stuffed with some pre and post season rankings mixed in.
 
#4,710
#4,710
BigPapaVol said:
the detail blows it up. He and gibbs use selective stats like marketing outfits that don't possess of a whit of credibility. The idiocy about number of NFL draftees on a roster is some of the dumbest stuff ever, but the best is the Vegas odds stuffed with some pre and post season rankings mixed in.
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Draftees is dumb, but I put merit on a school having players on opening day rosters. That's where we clobbered Florida
 
#4,711
#4,711
To be fair to Florida backs, Fred Taylor played longer (by 2 seasons) and had a possibly more impactful career than Charlie Garner. That said you can't name another one since then that's done anything. Come to think of it I really can't name any good Florida players besides Kearse or Taylor or Grossman that have done anything substantial in the NFL at all. That said it could be due to bias and not paying as much attention to Florida players as UT players.

As far as putting more talent into the NFL for longer I can't imagine how you could argue that. Most of the talent that UT has in the NFL is older talent. Lord knows our last several draft classes have sucked. Yet somehow UT is still a top NFL "farm team". That means that talent is older talent and thus talent that stuck around for a while.

The wide receivers from UT leave something to be desired, but Manning has a way of making every receiver look good unless they flat out drop the football. That's not on UT receivers.
 
#4,714
#4,714
OrangeDust said:
To be fair to Florida backs, Fred Taylor played longer (by 2 seasons) and had a possibly more impactful career than Charlie Garner. That said you can't name another one since then that's done anything. Come to think of it I really can't name any good Florida players besides Kearse or Taylor or Grossman that have done anything substantial in the NFL at all. That said it could be due to bias and not paying as much attention to Florida players as UT players.

As far as putting more talent into the NFL for longer I can't imagine how you could argue that. Most of the talent that UT has in the NFL is older talent. Lord knows our last several draft classes have sucked. Yet somehow UT is still a top NFL "farm team". That means that talent is older talent and thus talent that stuck around for a while.

The wide receivers from UT leave something to be desired, but Manning has a way of making every receiver look good unless they flat out drop the football. That's not on UT receivers.
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No way Taylor had a bigger impact than Charlie Garner. Garner was All-Pro one season and made the Pro-Bowl on several occasions. He also was Oakland's most important offensive player in their 2002 Super Bowl season
 
#4,715
#4,715
BigPapaVol said:
Futile effort. You're exactly right in that the homerun hitters were at UT. Spurrier's innovation made Wuerffel. Hell, he made a lot of it and the defenses were better until about 97, then we were more talented there, but squandered it.
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im pretty sure everyone knows css was a better offensive coach than cpf, he was probably the best in the nation at the time.

shame of it is,ut blew the opportunity to have him on our sidelines.of course we would have ran him off as well.
 
#4,716
#4,716
posivol said:
cpf has never had control of the checkbook.
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Not true and all too often, used as an excuse by the apologists.

In 1999, he had a great opportunity to go out and hire one of the best OCs in the country. He could have had almost anyone he wanted due to the fact he was returning a number of great offensive players from a national championship team. Instead, he hired Randy Sanders who was a good QB and RBs coach.

It became obvious Fulmer was a little out of his element when trying to hire/manage a staff properly. Rather that using solid performance criteria to evaluate his assistants, he chose to evaluate more subjectively, allowing loyalty to trump over other, more revealing characteristics.
 
#4,717
#4,717
posivol said:
im pretty sure everyone knows css was a better offensive coach than cpf, he was probably the best in the nation at the time.

shame of it is,ut blew the opportunity to have him on our sidelines.of course we would have ran him off as well.
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Who did UT run off?
 
#4,718
#4,718
BelAirVol said:
Not true and all too often, used as an excuse by the apologists.

In 1999, he had a great opportunity to go out and hire one of the best OCs in the country. He could have had almost anyone he wanted due to the fact he was returning a number of great offensive players from a national championship team. Instead, he hired Randy Sanders who was a good QB and RBs coach.

It became obvious Fulmer was a little out of his element when trying to hire/manage a staff properly. Rather that using solid performance criteria to evaluate his assistants, he chose to evaluate more subjectively, allowing loyalty to trump over other, more revealing characteristics.
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dude you know so much about cpf,you should write his autobiography.

oh but i dont guess fiction would qualify for a autobiography.

ut wouldnt pony up to retain garner but all of a sudden they were willing to spend big bucks for a quality o.c.

you do relize almost the whole staff was assembled and promoted from within,you know the one that won the nc
 
#4,719
#4,719
posivol said:
dude you know so much about cpf,you should write his autobiography.

oh but i dont guess fiction would qualify for a autobiography.

ut wouldnt pony up to retain garner but all of a sudden they were willing to spend big bucks for a quality o.c.

you do relize almost the whole staff was assembled and promoted from within,you know the one that won the nc
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I could certainly write a more accurate account of his life than either you, Gibbs or Vegas.

Other than Cut and Chavis, tell me where the rest of that staff is now and how many of them have gone on to be HCs, OCs, DCs, etc.

BTW, the TEAM won the national championship, not the coaches.

Clay Travis nailed Fulmer. He said Fulmer didn't think he was bigger than the program. Fulmer thought HE was the program. Amazingly, some of you do too
 
#4,720
#4,720
VegasVol said:
And people still delusional enough to say firing a coach to go 7-6, 6-7, and likely another 7-6 is a great improvement over a coach who won 9 or more games in 4 of his last 6 seasons, and that was actually the worst six-year stint of his entire tenure. The problem with the Fulmer haters is they can't admit their prediction of a rosy post-Fulmer world were atrociously wrong.
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Rosy? That wasn't my outlook given how much Fulmer had driven the program into the ground.

Hopeful? You bet I was and still am whether it was with Kiffin or now Dooley. Given Fulmer's track record against the top coaches in the SEC and the direction the SEC will continue going for the foreseeable future makes me incredibly glad that he is gone. His 10-23-1 record should prove that to even a delusional Fulmer homer like you.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#4,721
#4,721
BelAirVol said:
Not true and all too often, used as an excuse by the apologists.

In 1999, he had a great opportunity to go out and hire one of the best OCs in the country.
Click to expand...

Is there a specific guy you have in mind, or is that a general statement?

Either way, I don't think it went down like Fulmer pondered that opportunity and passed it up. Sanders was a buddy of his and I bet he considered nobody else.
 
#4,722
#4,722
Overall, I think the most stinging indictment of Fulmer is his career record of 33-40 (.452) against ranked teams. From 1999-2008, Fulmer was 15-31 against ranked teams. From 2004-2008, he was 8-18 against ranked teams.

I know Fulmer won a national title and two SEC titles. However, those records above are just not the marks of an elite coach. I wonder what records Mack Brown, Bob Stoops, Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, or even Mark Richt have against ranked teams.
 
#4,723
#4,723
Nah, his record from when he got the job just up until the collapse in 2001 against LSU are that of an elite coach.

It's been very mediocre since then, unless you're Gibbs and have us confused with Texas A&M or Mississippi State and think a smattering of wins over ranked teams over the course of seven or eight years and division titles are something to be proud of.
 
#4,724
#4,724
VegasVol said:
Actually, what's "not even debatable" is how wrong Tennessee fans like you were in assessing talent. Did you see the Florida teams from 1993-1997? Did you know their recruiting status coming in? Did you watch how they performed in the NFL? We had a great QB; they had good QBs, and good RBs, and good WRs, and good OL, and a stacked defense. I remember Tennessee fans saying anyone who said florida would have more skill players in the NFL for longer than Tennessee back in the mid-90's was an "idiot"; it turned out the Tennessee fans were the idiots.

Basically, when a Fulmer team played well, fans attributed it to talent; when it didn't, they attributed it to coaching. Reality was a lot different; we had talent, but it was not overwhelming talent, and Fulmer's talent-to-win ratio was no different, and slightly better, than many of his competitors, including some celebrated names. Tennessee fans just refused to recognize it.
Click to expand...

Truth. It's also sad how far people will go to diss a real Tennessee legend.
 
#4,725
#4,725
05_never_again said:
Overall, I think the most stinging indictment of Fulmer is his career record of 33-40 (.452) against ranked teams. From 1999-2008, Fulmer was 15-31 against ranked teams. From 2004-2008, he was 8-18 against ranked teams.

I know Fulmer won a national title and two SEC titles. However, those records above are just not the marks of an elite coach. I wonder what records Mack Brown, Bob Stoops, Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, or even Mark Richt have against ranked teams.
Click to expand...

You shouldn't have wondered, if you were trying to indict Fulmer. The data has been provided numerous times.

And Fulmer is equivalent to Saban and Spurrier.
 
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