Football isn’t happening...

OffTackleVol

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I’m sure every member of the team is touched by your deep concern for them. I’m glad you’re not visiting the living rooms of recruits trying to convince their parents that UT is going to be an extension of their family.
Hey 423, just curious as to what you think. If you surveyed the entire UT football team about whether to play this season or not, what percentage do you think would answer "play?" I'd bet somewhere between 95 and 99% You?
 

OffTackleVol

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People just need to quit being such a bunch of weak minded pu$$ies. A virus with a 99% plus survival rate is going to shut down the whole world until a vaccine is developed? Really??? What a load of crap. College and Professional Athletes are in the best shape of their lives. Who cares if they test positive. They aren't going to be dying from this weak microbe.
Agree 100% Let's all move on with life..........and protect and keep safe the population that's vulnerable to this virus.
 

TrumpedUpVol

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Hey 423, just curious as to what you think. If you surveyed the entire UT football team about whether to play this season or not, what percentage do you think would answer "play?" I'd bet somewhere between 95 and 99% You?
It's an interesting question. This article from ESPN had pretty strong "approval" from FBS players (89% comfortable with playing the season, 85% fine with playing even if there are no on-campus classes [this won't happen], 82% fine playing in front of empty stadiums) but they were polled throughout March and, ultimately, one could look at recent numbers and focus on the increasing case count instead of decreasing hospitalization and mortality rates. I think it's a little silly to be going to bars/parties/protests but deem football in 60+ days as a bridge to far but, hey, we've seen a lot of grown adults harbor some very weird and incongruous beliefs regarding this virus as of late.

Unlike the trepidation seen prior to the Alabama vs. UT SEC basketball tournament game in Nashville, with players on both sides allegedly reaching an agreement to decline playing if Barnes/Oats didn't get the game cancelled, I do feel as if a majority of players would be fine with playing a season this fall if the minuscule realities of the mortality rate start sinking in. There will of course be some players of varying quality who strongly oppose suiting up, but I truly feel as if the only way to deal with this insubordination is to thank them for their time/effort and give that scholarship to someone who wants to earn their keep.
 
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There will of course be some players of varying quality who strongly oppose suiting up, but I truly feel as if the only way to deal with this insubordination is to thank them for their time/effort and give that scholarship to someone who wants to earn their keep.
I tend to agree with the majority of what you posted, but I do not agree with your concluding statement. These athletes are still human beings, and I don't think their concern about contracting the virus is equivalent to "insubordination" and worthy of revoking their scholarship.

Most people are quick to say "These are young, healthy kids. They won't die!" And you're probably right. But there are numerous studies that discuss the long-term health impacts of contracting the virus, which include permanent lung damage. That could have a steep impact on any athlete's ability long-term. If you want to throw stones at professional athletes for not playing throughout the virus, fair enough. They get paid millions. But I think it's completely reasonable for a collegiate athlete to sit out if they truly feel their long term health is at risk.

And to provide some context to my post before I'm criticized, I too want sports back desperately, and I too feel the double-standard of which large gatherings are acceptable and which aren't can be increasingly frustrating. However, at the end of the day, as much as I LOVE sports, it's still just a sport. We'll all survive a single year without football, as much as it might suck. And it's easy for us to pass judgement from an internet forum. But these are real people, young people, who play a game for our entertainment. Their health and safety should come first and I trust Pruitt & Co. to handle these hard decisions.
 

TrumpedUpVol

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I tend to agree with the majority of what you posted, but I do not agree with your concluding statement. These athletes are still human beings, and I don't think their concern about contracting the virus is equivalent to "insubordination" and worthy of revoking their scholarship.

Most people are quick to say "These are young, healthy kids. They won't die!" And you're probably right. But there are numerous studies that discuss the long-term health impacts of contracting the virus, which include permanent lung damage. That could have a steep impact on any athlete's ability long-term. If you want to throw stones at professional athletes for not playing throughout the virus, fair enough. They get paid millions. But I think it's completely reasonable for a collegiate athlete to sit out if they truly feel their long term health is at risk.

And to provide some context to my post before I'm criticized, I too want sports back desperately, and I too feel the double-standard of which large gatherings are acceptable and which aren't can be increasingly frustrating. However, at the end of the day, as much as I LOVE sports, it's still just a sport. We'll all survive a single year without football, as much as it might suck. And it's easy for us to pass judgement from an internet forum. But these are real people, young people, who play a game for our entertainment. Their health and safety should come first and I trust Pruitt & Co. to handle these hard decisions.
I agree with your point and think that attempting to cajole a 20-year-old into changing their views about the severity of COVID-19 in order to have them play sports is likely a losing battle. To that end, "insubordination" certainly wasn't the best choice of wording on my part.

I do still believe that programs will find themselves in slight pickles when it comes to athletes that "refuse" to participate in fall sports out of concern over this disease. It's a pretty muddy issue, but their scholarship is contingent upon participation in athletics; I definitely recognize that injured players aren't stripped of their scholarships and truthfully don't know enough about athletic department minutiae to say with confidence what happens to the scholarships of players suspended from a team for actual insubordination or violation of program/school rules, yet have a difficult time seeing the equity in roughly 83 kids giving their all for Tennessee while two guys essentially receive a free education without attempting to fulfill the conditions of their athletic scholarship.
 

allvol123

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I agree with your point and think that attempting to cajole a 20-year-old into changing their views about the severity of COVID-19 in order to have them play sports is likely a losing battle. To that end, "insubordination" certainly wasn't the best choice of wording on my part.

I do still believe that programs will find themselves in slight pickles when it comes to athletes that "refuse" to participate in fall sports out of concern over this disease. It's a pretty muddy issue, but their scholarship is contingent upon participation in athletics; I definitely recognize that injured players aren't stripped of their scholarships and truthfully don't know enough about athletic department minutiae to say with confidence what happens to the scholarships of players suspended from a team for actual insubordination or violation of program/school rules, yet have a difficult time seeing the equity in roughly 83 kids giving their all for Tennessee while two guys essentially receive a free education without attempting to fulfill the conditions of their athletic scholarship.
It isnt muddy. Most kids will choose to play. Of the few that dont, no school is pulling their scholly.
 

VFL-82-JP

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I'm just not bright enough to learn, I guess, because it continues to surprise me how many folks will hyperventilate, will badly over-react to any stimulus.

Young people are going back to school this fall. That's true from kindergarten to college. We've already decided this, as a collection of states and communities, decided that educating our youth effectively, which means face to face, is important and needs to continue. It is going to happen.

And so the young folks will, more and more as time goes on, be exposed to covid-19. A lot will never even know they got it. Most will experience minor symptoms, get over them after a few days, and get right back to doing what kids and young adults do.

Key point: this is true whether anyone plays sports or not.

We act like the disease is hiding out only in locker rooms and on playing surfaces. Reading this thread and others like it, you'd think success or failure combating the disease depends on athletic seasons or the lack thereof.

It doesn't.

Sport is just one of the many social aspects of a young person's life. And is not even the one with the highest "body density" (young folks packed into an enclosed space). That distinction probably belongs to dances, or parties, or church, or going to class in those big lecture halls, or the movies. Compared to all those, being on a field in the open air seems comparatively safe from a communicable disease perspective.

Young folks are going to do all this--live all aspects of their lives--because they and their parents are more and more broadly coming to realize that this disease carries very little risk for them personally (whether they should go home at Christmas and visit Grandma is a different issue).

They will gather together. Over and over again.

And as they gather, they'll get the flu. And get over it.

So why on earth are we acting like singling out and eliminating sport is somehow The Big Decision for them, or for us?

It's not. It's just one aspect of the lives they're going to live, with or without our "permission."

~ ~ ~

Will any college kids die of covid-19? Yes. It is a sad statistical truth. Younger kids as well. A few already have*, and more will. Even after a vaccine is produced and widely implemented. We have a new killer among us, to join the man-eating tiger, the shark, the lightning bolt, the car accident, influenza, pneumonia, heart disease, diabetes, leukemia, and...well, you get the point. It's a dangerous world we live in. Even for our youth..

Sucks, but not a single one of us can put this genie back in the bottle.

So folks, we're going to have to get used to the new reality, and figure out how to go on living in a world that includes Covid-19.

Stopping sports has no part in the answer we're looking for. Not even temporarily. Because it wouldn't help.**

Go Vols.



* in the US, six children age 0-18 have thus far had to be placed in an ICU while infected with covid-19, and three died. All of the six in ICU had at least one underlying condition (chronic lung disease, like asthma, cardiovascular disease, or immunosuppression). Among the three who died, the medical community have not yet determined whether covid-19 was the cause of death or how significantly it contributed.

** now, a decision not to have fans--or not so many fans--in stands is a totally different discussion, one that can widely impact disease spread rates in a community. Having 100 kids and coaches on the sideline is roughly the same level of risk as a partially full church or cinema theater. But 100,000 people cheek-by-jowl in the stands is...well, it is mathematically 1,000-fold the level of risk, before even factoring in that fandom tends to include the much higher-risk age bands. This question deserves to be more carefully considered.
 
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OffTackleVol

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I'm just not bright enough to learn, I guess, because it continues to surprise me how many folks will hyperventilate, will badly over-react to any stimulus.

Young people are going back to school this fall. That's true from kindergarten to college. We've already decided this, as a collection of states and communities, decided that educating our youth effectively, which means face to face, is important and needs to continue. It is going to happen.

And so the young folks will, more and more as time goes on, be exposed to covid-19. A lot will never even know they got it. Most will experience minor symptoms, get over them after a few days, and get right back to doing what kids and young adults do.

Key point: this is true whether anyone plays sports or not.

We act like the disease is hiding out only in locker rooms and on playing surfaces. Reading this thread and others like it, you'd think success or failure combating the disease depends on athletic seasons or the lack thereof.

It doesn't.

Sport is just one of the many social aspects of a young person's life. And is not even the one with the highest "body density" (young folks packed into an enclosed space). That distinction probably belongs to dances, or parties, or church, or going to class in those big lecture halls, or the movies. Compared to all those, being on a field in the open air seems comparatively safe from a communicable disease perspective.

Young folks are going to do all this--live all aspects of their lives--because they and their parents are more and more broadly coming to realize that this disease carries very little risk for them personally (whether they should go home at Christmas and visit Grandma is a different issue).

They will gather together. Over and over again.

And as they gather, they'll get the flu. And get over it.

So why on earth are we acting like singling out and eliminating sport is somehow The Big Decision for them, or for us?

It's not. It's just one aspect of the lives they're going to live, with or without our "permission."

~ ~ ~

Will any college kids die of covid-19? Yes. It is a sad statistical truth. Younger kids as well. A few already have*, and more will. Even after a vaccine is produced and widely implemented. We have a new killer among us, to join the man-eating tiger, the shark, the lightning bolt, the car accident, influenza, pneumonia, heart disease, diabetes, leukemia, and...well, you get the point. It's a dangerous world we live in. Even for our youth..

Sucks, but not a single one of us can put this genie back in the bottle.

So folks, we're going to have to get used to the new reality, and figure out how to go on living in a world that includes Covid-19.

Stopping sports has no part in the answer we're looking for. Not even temporarily. Because it wouldn't help.**

Go Vols.



* in the US, six children age 0-18 have thus far had to be placed in an ICU while infected with covid-19, and three died. All of the six in ICU had at least one underlying condition (chronic lung disease, like asthma, cardiovascular disease, or immunosuppression). Among the three who died, the medical community have not yet determined whether covid-19 was the cause of death or how significantly it contributed.

** now, a decision not to have fans--or not so many fans--in stands is a totally different discussion, one that can widely impact disease spread rates in a community. Having 100 kids and coaches on the sideline is roughly the same level of risk as a partially full church or cinema theater. But 100,000 people cheek-by-jowl in the stands is...well, it is mathematically 1,000-fold the level of risk, before even factoring in that fandom tends to include the much higher-risk age bands. This question deserves to be more carefully considered.
Maybe the "Post of the Year!" Well stated and thank you.......
 

bamawriter

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I'm just not bright enough to learn, I guess, because it continues to surprise me how many folks will hyperventilate, will badly over-react to any stimulus.

Young people are going back to school this fall. That's true from kindergarten to college. We've already decided this, as a collection of states and communities, decided that educating our youth effectively, which means face to face, is important and needs to continue. It is going to happen.
I'm not sure this is universally true. In fact, I'm certain that it isn't. I think it's what everyone is hoping for, but the current state of things is pushing us in the other direction.

I live in Williamson County, and my kids are in the county school system. They put out their guidelines for switching from full attendance to partial remote learning to fully remote learning. A computer whiz friend of mine created a formula that takes the current new active numbers less the recoveries in order to calculate the exact date at which WillCo schools will switch to fully remote learning. Last Saturday, that date was 2 weeks into the school year. Yesterday, just 9 days later, the date was 3 days before the first day of school. It took 9 days to move 17 days backward.

There's still time between now then, but it's now less than 40 days away. That's enough runway to make a dent in the numbers, but it needs to start happening soon. If the recoveries don't start outpacing the new cases, my kids will not be going back to school as scheduled.

Now, maybe that's just one county in one state. But I'm guessing we're not alone.
 
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Delmar

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I agree with your point and think that attempting to cajole a 20-year-old into changing their views about the severity of COVID-19 in order to have them play sports is likely a losing battle. To that end, "insubordination" certainly wasn't the best choice of wording on my part.

I do still believe that programs will find themselves in slight pickles when it comes to athletes that "refuse" to participate in fall sports out of concern over this disease. It's a pretty muddy issue, but their scholarship is contingent upon participation in athletics; I definitely recognize that injured players aren't stripped of their scholarships and truthfully don't know enough about athletic department minutiae to say with confidence what happens to the scholarships of players suspended from a team for actual insubordination or violation of program/school rules, yet have a difficult time seeing the equity in roughly 83 kids giving their all for Tennessee while two guys essentially receive a free education without attempting to fulfill the conditions of their athletic scholarship.
I think they play in some form or fashion with limited fans in the stands. But I also believe the programs are going to find themselves in a pickle when some players test positive in mid season and the university gets cold feet. Or there is an outbreak on the team they are about to play and then 10 or 15 UT players decide they aren’t risking exposure that week and refuse to play. Even if they crank up, there are lots of ways this thing can go off the rails.
 
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VFL-82-JP

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I'm not sure this is universally true. In fact, I'm certain that it isn't. I think it's what everyone is hoping for, but the current state of things is pushing us in the other direction.

I live in Williamson County, and my kids are in the county school system. They put out their guidelines for switching from full attendance to partial remote learning to fully remote learning. A computer whiz friend of mine created a formula that takes the current new active numbers less the recoveries in order to calculate the exact date at which WillCo schools will switch to fully remote learning. Last Saturday, that date was 2 weeks into the school year. Yesterday, just 9 days later, the date was 3 days before the first day of school. It took 9 days to move 17 days backward.

There's still time between now then, but it's now less than 40 days away. That's enough runway to make a dent in the numbers, but it needs to start happening soon. If the recoveries don't start outpacing the new cases, my kids will not be going back to school as scheduled.

Now, maybe that's just one county in one state. But I'm guessing we're not alone.
You're a Bama fan, which means you're not very bright. And you're a Bama fan living in Tennessee, which means you have loyalty issues. So I'll use small words and will not bring values or ethics into the discussion to throw you off track.

Very few things in life are universally true. Nature abhors (that means "hates") the number 100%. And 0% as well. Most things are generally true, or generally false. America is going back to school in the fall. That is generally true.

More specifically, Williamson County Schools are reopening this fall. They recently announced:
Williamson County Schools is preparing for the return of students to school campuses for the first day of the 2020-21 school year on Friday, August 7, 2020, and while plans regarding the school year continue to evolve, the district goal is that students attend school on-campus with the maximum possible direct teacher instruction within the State and local health department COVID-19 safety guidelines. [emphasis added]
Sure, they have contingency plans, all schools have contingency plans. But their intent, to maximize face-to-face teaching, can't be more explicitly stated.

You think I insulted your intelligence early on just because that's what Tennessee and Bama fans do for each other. Not at all. There was a purpose directly related to this conversation.

See, you're not too bright at all, as a Bama fan, so when you say "my computer whiz friend" the rest of us automatically envision some guy who can barely turn a computer on. So he's a whiz from your perspective. We get that. Now this fella learned how to use an excel spreadsheet, typed a few things in it, and proved (to you) that Williamson County Schools are going to close 3 days before they open.

Okay.

You'll forgive us for not writing the Nobel Committee on his behalf, just yet.

Your kids are going to school this fall, Bama fan. Hopefully they get really smart, learn values like loyalty, and become lifeling Vols fans.

(all tongue in cheek, of course...I do wish your kids well and hope they have a safe school year...and become Vols fans)
 
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VolRoger

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I'm not sure this is universally true. In fact, I'm certain that it isn't. I think it's what everyone is hoping for, but the current state of things is pushing us in the other direction.

I live in Williamson County, and my kids are in the county school system. They put out their guidelines for switching from full attendance to partial remote learning to fully remote learning. A computer whiz friend of mine created a formula that takes the current new active numbers less the recoveries in order to calculate the exact date at which WillCo schools will switch to fully remote learning. Last Saturday, that date was 2 weeks into the school year. Yesterday, just 9 days later, the date was 3 days before the first day of school. It took 9 days to move 17 days backward.

There's still time between now then, but it's now less than 40 days away. That's enough runway to make a dent in the numbers, but it needs to start happening soon. If the recoveries don't start outpacing the new cases, my kids will not be going back to school as scheduled.

Now, maybe that's just one county in one state. But I'm guessing we're not alone.
my wife is a grade school teacher. They have 5 contingency plans for how school would be conducted this fall. I believe UT has three contingency plans ranging from face to face to fully online remote. It would be totally short sighted not to have alternatives. Even so, the poster’s only makes some sense with necessary endeavors such as working a job. Playing and attending sports events is entertainment that has no place in a pandemic. Can you imagine being the parent of a child who died from complications of COVID 19 picked up from attending a football game? We all know the only reason authorities are desperately trying to have the games is for the money. Does anyone really think universities as a whole care if cross country track, women’s rowing, or men and women’s soccer happen this fall? It’s all about football. I guarantee you if sports networks told the schools they’d make up the difference in lost ticket sales withe more TV revenue, there would be mass announcements sent out the next day to the fans saying, “sorry, no fans at the games this year, but please keep supporting us with your donations”.
 

vol9799

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I'm not sure this is universally true. In fact, I'm certain that it isn't. I think it's what everyone is hoping for, but the current state of things is pushing us in the other direction.

I live in Williamson County, and my kids are in the county school system. They put out their guidelines for switching from full attendance to partial remote learning to fully remote learning. A computer whiz friend of mine created a formula that takes the current new active numbers less the recoveries in order to calculate the exact date at which WillCo schools will switch to fully remote learning. Last Saturday, that date was 2 weeks into the school year. Yesterday, just 9 days later, the date was 3 days before the first day of school. It took 9 days to move 17 days backward.

There's still time between now then, but it's now less than 40 days away. That's enough runway to make a dent in the numbers, but it needs to start happening soon. If the recoveries don't start outpacing the new cases, my kids will not be going back to school as scheduled.

Now, maybe that's just one county in one state. But I'm guessing we're not alone.
Problem is, recoveries are not being reported in real time.

Case in point, 1.25 recoveries or deaths have been reported thru yesterday. Experts claim CV-19 lasts two weeks in non-severe cases and 3-6 weeks in severe cases. Based on that, here's how many cases are actually resolved if you look at the date each case was reported, not contracted.
- Every US case is extremely severe and requires 6 wk recovery = 1.58M cases have been resolved by either recovery or death ; We know this scenario isn't real but it set the floor at >300k (25% more) than currently reported.
- Every US case is very severe and requires 5 wk recovery = 1.74M cases resolved, 500k more than reported
- Every US case is severe and requires 4 wk recovery = 1.9M cases resolved, 650k more than reported
- US cases are a blend of severe and pedestrian yielding an 3 wk avg recovery (reasonable assumption) = 2.05M cases resolved, 80% more than currently reported, only 650k reported active cases currently and that includes the false positives reported from antibody testing.

Point is, you can't run data analysis off bad data and get to anything dependable. This sounds like crazy to say but I actually think the best solution is to stop testing anyone without reasonably severe symptoms and stop reporting any data and tell people just to treat being sick like they've always treated it. My honest opinion is that just about the same number of people will get severely ill or die either way. Eliminate all the ancillary damage caused by the controversy, fear and ineffective reactions.
 

bamawriter

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You're a Bama fan, which means you're not very bright. And you're a Bama fan living in Tennessee, which means you have loyalty issues. So I'll use small words and will not bring values or ethics into the discussion to throw you off track.

Very few things in life are universally true. Nature abhors (that means "hates") the number 100%. And 0% as well. Most things are generally true, or generally false. America is going back to school in the fall. That is generally true.
But, again, we are already neck deep in the contigency plan. If things don't change, then the contingency plan is the plan in practice.

I don't care about the insults, and in the end I hope you wind up being correct. But, until people are willing to acknowledge what's going on, even if they don't agree with the official response, we're not going to get where we'd all like to be.
 
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bamawriter

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Point is, you can't run data analysis off bad data and get to anything dependable. This sounds like crazy to say but I actually think the best solution is to stop testing anyone without reasonably severe symptoms and stop reporting any data and tell people just to treat being sick like they've always treated it. My honest opinion is that just about the same number of people will get severely ill or die either way. Eliminate all the ancillary damage caused by the controversy, fear and ineffective reactions.
I see what you're saying, but that would kneecap any attempt at contact tracing.
 

vol9799

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I see what you're saying, but that would kneecap any attempt at contact tracing.
Yes, it would. What point is contact tracing when the CDC admits that the number of actual cases is likely 10 x's the amount reported. The premise behind all of this is flawed. We're playing wack-a-mole with a regenerating hydra that has only one tooth between all its heads. If we keep doing what we're doing we're only going to continue to have chaos and unfortunately for some, that is the objective.
 

bamawriter

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Yes, it would. What point is contact tracing when the CDC admits that the number of actual cases is likely 10 x's the amount reported. The premise behind all of this is flawed. We're playing wack-a-mole with a regenerating hydra that has only one tooth between all its heads. If we keep doing what we're doing we're only going to continue to have chaos and unfortunately for some, that is the objective.
Arguing about testing is arguing about the damage from a fire while the blaze is still raging. Let's worry about putting it out first.

If everyone will do what they should, then before long we won't have to worry about the efficacy of our testing model. Cases can and will drop. It's happening elsewhere in the world. Let's do what those folks are doing.
 

advancedrescue27

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I agree that’s not your problem, nor was it mine. Lie down before your hurt yourself, hon.
Lie down before I hurt myself? LoL come on I know that type of comeback worked for high school girls in the 90s that thought they were sassy. You aren’t in high school anymore, and it’s not the 90s. You can do better than sticking with the same weak one liner from 30 years ago, esp when it doesn’t even make sense.

And the hon is a nice southern touch I’ll give you that. Kind of like the “bless your heart” saying. Nice way of saying f you, and I applaud it.
 
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vol9799

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Arguing about testing is arguing about the damage from a fire while the blaze is still raging. Let's worry about putting it out first.

If everyone will do what they should, then before long we won't have to worry about the efficacy of our testing model. Cases can and will drop. It's happening elsewhere in the world. Let's do what those folks are doing.
Deaths continue to drop here.
Assuming the perception of the CV-19 pandemic will improve here prior to the election is farcical. Different folks believe it's in their interests to keep everyone stirred up and this is an easy way to do it. If folks were working together instead of toward their own self-interests we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
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