Federal Indictment of Donald Trump

[hUTch2002]

I did not.

Maybe you did, maybe you didn’t. I’m not going back to verify but those that you usually associate with on here did.

 

[NCFisher]

Simple answer. The President has the Authority to declassify, to declassify the President WILL follow the prescribe procedures in accordance with Regulatory Guidance to declassify. Trump and staff failed to follow the procedures to do so. I hate that some do not get that this is the way that it is outlined. In simple terms, he failed to submit the paperwork and make it a matter of record regarding the Classified Documents found at MAR.

Ownership is the next issue. Even if he had properly done it the declassify documents remain with the government.

I really can't see what the problems with seeing that it is really this simple.

Yeah, not so simple.

That assumes the president's classification authority is predicated on procedure not constitutionally prescribed, which is the argument we've been having. My position has been stated. The classification system exists by executive order and executive orders do not bind successive presidents. No one who claims that predication upon process/procedure can state the constitutional premise for it. For instance, Trump clearly on Jan 19-20, 2021 authorized declassification of a host of Clinton email/Russia investigation docs. Even after accepting the redactions by FBI/DOJ, Garland's DOJ did not follow through on the authorization. So, not only do you claim executive classification is predicated on procedure without a constitutional premise, but that underlings or unelected agency staff or officials can nullify it. From a constitutional point, that's dangerously illogical.

Kash Patel states he was present when Trump declassified documents in those final days, that he had been doing so for months. Documents at Mar-a-Lago Marked 'Classified' Were Already Declassified and makes just that point; that because staff subordinate to the presidency do not perform their job does not nullify the president's classification authority. Until the minute an incoming president is sworn, the outgoing is the president.

The extent of executive classification has never been adjudicated because he is the constitutional authority vested with sole power. If a court - or congress - decides to declare limitation and it is not remedied prior to reaching SCOTUS, SCOTUS will be hearing that case. Who, finding no constitutional basis will read it broadly as the president's own inclination. The remedy is either amendment or the ballot box.

The raid warrant is based upon a 'lead' that docs marked classified were still at MAL after Trump lawyer Bobb certified otherwise.
NARA is able under the PRA to refer a collection action for records to DOJ as a civil action since the PRA has no criminal penalty. I think DOJ's raid is to establish an obstruction charge based on the faulty or illegitimate certification by Bobb, independent of whether records were classified. Classification is chattering media's firestorm lit by DOJ leaks, but I can't see that DOJ is concerned with it as a basis; they have sound makings for an obstruction case which I think was the raid's objective.

 

[RockyTop85]

I read lawyer Bobb's certification letter from the document transfer in June and the DOJ's August warrant. I didn't find the May/June subpoena, but saw Solomon had reported the language in the subpoena and the raid warrant were identical. If they are, doesn't that make a charge of obstruction the primary offense? It could explain why DOJ didn't follow up on Trump's invitation to come back if they needed anything else, or subpoena again, if they had a lead that marked documents were still on premise after certifying they weren't.

I don't the special master is the final say on whether the documents were classified. If you were prosecution, would you rather litigate classification authority, possibly on appeal up to SCOTUS, along with obstruction (and enforcing the PRA) in this scenario? My understanding the PRA has no criminal penalty. A charge of obstruction seems to have real legs without muddying it with classification powers - and thus the classification status of the files - and potentially jeopardizing an obstruction case.

?

It’s not uncommon to use broad requests for a subpoena or warrant. I don’t think it’s a concession that the documents may not be classified so much as it’s anticipating a potential claim of plausible deniability regarding compliance with the subpoena, and just avoiding it on the front end.

I agree with most of the rest.

As for how they will charge it: In my (only adjacent to federal criminal law) experience, US Attorneys tend to stay away from hard or questionable cases and go for slam dunks. Whatever theory of the crime they charge would likely include charges like obstruction that would serve as insurance and, like they did with the Scooter Libby situation, they might avoid a murky classification dispute altogether.

As to the Special Master: Even the CA11 panel did not decide that the documents are classified as to the possible criminal charges. It’s being decided whether they are government property for the purpose of whether they must be returned to Donald Trump. The whole “unannounced declassification by just being careless with the documents” theory hasn’t been litigated. But the determination that they were government property was based on the fact that they were obviously classified documents. It’s the same analytical framework, and the analysis wasn’t particularly close. They said there wasn’t even a question that should be decided by Dearie. So you also can’t read that decision and say it looks like the CA11 panel was just waiting for team Trump to make the right argument, either.

I think it’s possibly going to play out. Maybe Courts will decide it. If so, I’m still confident they’ll say Trump’s theory is wrong. But, this whole special master filing is a testament to how far important people can get in spite of laughable incompetence, so I guess anything could happen. But anybody saying I’ve “already lost the debate” after the last 7 days should be involuntarily committed until a full psych evaluation can be performed to make sure they’re not playing checkers alone in the travel lane if the interstate.

 

[NCFisher]

I've not taken detailed interest in the special master appointment or commented; Garland will indict or not. I hope he does, and want to see this play out in court. And hope - though a long shot - that classification dispute plays a role in taking it before SCOTUS. I'd like Garland to explain why DOJ has stonewalled info requests from Repubs on the docs Trump declassified Jan '21, and why Garland's DOJ has not declassified them. Mostly, I want them made available.

 

[Sudden Impact]

Yeah, not so simple.

That assumes the president's classification authority is predicated on procedure not constitutionally prescribed, which is the argument we've been having. My position has been stated. The classification system exists by executive order and executive orders do not bind successive presidents. No one who claims that predication upon process/procedure can state the constitutional premise for it. For instance, Trump clearly on Jan 19-20, 2021 authorized declassification of a host of Clinton email/Russia investigation docs. Even after accepting the redactions by FBI/DOJ, Garland's DOJ did not follow through on the authorization. So, not only do you claim executive classification is predicated on procedure without a constitutional premise, but that underlings or unelected agency staff or officials can nullify it. From a constitutional point, that's dangerously illogical.

Kash Patel states he was present when Trump declassified documents in those final days, that he had been doing so for months. Documents at Mar-a-Lago Marked 'Classified' Were Already Declassified and makes just that point; that because staff subordinate to the presidency do not perform their job does not nullify the president's classification authority. Until the minute an incoming president is sworn, the outgoing is the president.

The extent of executive classification has never been adjudicated because he is the constitutional authority vested with sole power. If a court - or congress - decides to declare limitation and it is not remedied prior to reaching SCOTUS, SCOTUS will be hearing that case. Who, finding no constitutional basis will read it broadly as the president's own inclination. The remedy is either amendment or the ballot box.

The raid warrant is based upon a 'lead' that docs marked classified were still at MAL after Trump lawyer Bobb certified otherwise.
NARA is able under the PRA to refer a collection action for records to DOJ as a civil action since the PRA has no criminal penalty. I think DOJ's raid is to establish an obstruction charge based on the faulty or illegitimate certification by Bobb, independent of whether records were classified. Classification is chattering media's firestorm lit by DOJ leaks, but I can't see that DOJ is concerned with it as a basis; they have sound makings for an obstruction case which I think was the raid's objective.

It is procedurally prescribe and regulated. Witnessed great, recorded and past on in record to appropriate governing agencies, did not happen. Sorry but it had to done and the proper procedures were never followed.

Document declassification must be recorded and because it is declassified does not mean it is not the government's property or that it can be taking home with someone. Call it whatever you desire, but if there is not a record of it then sorry.

Trump was advised and told, he was ask for the documents back and he refused to give them up. That is his mistake. It was a Rookie self serving egotistical mistake that he made. The Govt had to send the FBI into his residence to retrieve them and rightfully so. It is so simple, but hard for many to see.

The rest you have stated are just deflections of the facts regarding the disposition of declassified documents and the handling of them after declassification. It is in the Regulatory Guidance not the Constitution. Ownership and safeguards does not change because of declassification as it is still based on a "need to know" basis.

In the case of Trump having these documents, he did not have a storage facility to support holding this documents regardless of their declassification status. In other words, it makes no difference because he would never have been allowed to hold on to any declassified document to begin with in the first place. They are not his personal property and their contents still affect National Security.

Regarding the warrant. Moot point. Enough legal experts and experienced lawyers laid eyes on it to ensure that the warrant was uncontestable. The charges and burdens of proof for each charge if indicted will be concrete. They didn't just throw crap up against the wall to see what sticks and what did not. The DOJ had the case made before the warrant was requested.

The Special Master and the 11th Circuit Court have addressed the issues and concluded that the documents found were declassified they were not the property of Trump. Makes this cut and dry. So even if the documents were declassified they belong to the Government in a secure location of which Trump would never be able to accomplish.

Another point is that Trump's legal team can't provide the documents or procedures followed to declassify information. They are competent enough to do do so if they could but there is no evidence to date upon request by the Special Master.

Some need to separate the legal agenda from the political agenda.

I feel I have to repeat this with you because you don't grasp this aspect of the case against him.

 

[NCFisher]

It is procedurally prescribe and regulated. Witnessed great, recorded and past on in record to appropriate governing agencies, did not happen. Sorry but it had to done and the proper procedures were never followed.

Document declassification must be recorded and because it is declassified does not mean it is not the government's property or that it can be taking home with someone. Call it whatever you desire, but if there is not a record of it then sorry.

Trump was advised and told, he was ask for the documents back and he refused to give them up. That is his mistake. It was a Rookie self serving egotistical mistake that he made. The had to send the FBI into his residence to retrieve them and rightfully so. It is so simple, but hard for many to see.

The rest you have stated is just deflections of the facts regarding the disposition of declassified documents and the handling of them after declassification. It is in the Regulatory Guidance not the Constitution. Ownership and safeguards does not change because of declassification as it is still based on a "need to know" basis.

In the case of Trump having these documents, he did not have a storage facility to support holding this documents regardless of their declassification status. In other words, it makes no difference because he would never have been allowed to hold on to any declassified document to begin with in the first place. They are not his personal property and their contents still affect National Security.

Regarding the warrant. Moot point. Enough legal experts and experienced lawyers laid eyes on it to ensure that the warrant was uncontestable. The charges and burdens of proof for each charge if indicted will be concrete. They didn't just throw crap up against the wall to see what sticks and what did not. The DOJ had the case made before the warrant was requested.

The Special Master and the 11th Circuit Court have addressed the issues and concluded that the documents found were declassified they were not the property of Trump. Makes this cut and dry. So even if the documents were declassified they belong to the Government in a secure location of which Trump would never be able to accomplish.

Another point is that Trump's legal team can't provide the documents or procedures followed to declassify information. They are competent enough to do do so if they could but there is no evidence to date upon request by the Special Master.

Some need to separate the legal agenda from the political agenda.

I feel I have to repeat this with you because you don't grasp this aspect of the case against him.

For the last time, I have not argued that declassification power infers or grants post-presidency possession; quite the opposite, in fact. I've made no comment on the special master role, or team Trump's interaction with him because it is immaterial to whether Garland will indict or not.

Good grief, man; if you're to repeat yourself then address MY comments, not the construct of your imagination despite being told the inverse. 95% of this is that, the other 5% re: classification authority we've denuded.

 

[Sudden Impact]

For the last time, I have not argued that declassification power infers or grants post-presidency possession; quite the opposite, in fact. I've made no comment on the special master role, or team Trump's interaction with him because it is immaterial to whether Garland will indict or not.

Good grief, man; if you're to repeat yourself then address MY comments, not the construct of your imagination despite being told the inverse. 95% of this is that, the other 5% re: classification authority we've denuded.

Reread your posts.

 

[NCFisher]

Reread your posts.

No, you point out to me where I've argued the president can keep declass records upon leaving office, or stop yapping.

 

[Orangeburst]

All this energy on Trump..while this nation goes down the crapper.
Hey look everyone...we finally got him. Congratulations.

 

[Sudden Impact]

No, you point out to me where I've argued the president can keep declass records upon leaving office, or stop yapping.

You make this about one thing when you have stated all about others. You dug up case log. No you read your own posts and figure it out. I guess you admit now that he had to follow the processes and procedures President or Ex.

Your words: To boil your position down, you predicate the vested authority of classification itself upon whether or not the president follows bureaucratic procedure or custom; the constitution establishes no such predication, and the court has been mute except to convey singular authority. Again, whose procedures must the president follow to declassify? Where does the constitution subject that authority to procedural underlings? Or statutes of Congress, for that matter? You should re-read the last link I gave you.

 

[NCFisher]

You make this about one thing when you have stated all about others. You dug up case log. No you read your own posts and figure it out.

So you searched and found you assumed things that weren't said or implied.
S'okay, it happens to the best of you.

 

[Sudden Impact]

So you searched and found you assumed things that weren't said or implied.
S'okay, it happens to the best of you.

I will admit to mixing your conversations up with some others but I edited above and as I told you early on that Trump had to follow a step by step process and a procedural path to declassify material you continued to disagree. You fit the response to be a victim of the conversations vs admitting you were wrong. Completely changing the dialogue of the conversation to support yourself. Nice try.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

I did not.

In fact, even the brits were telling us how it was a fair choice.

 

[Orangeburst]

I bet nobody here even knows the procedural issue of declassifying docs.
Just because there is pepper in the salt shaker doesn't make it pepper..as evidenced by the covers.
Like there are not thousands of actual paper copies that must be rubber stamped.
What happens when a doc is unclassified..The Feds pull all the copies and rubber stamp unclassified?

This is stupid.

 

[Orangeburst]

Of course..the fears of committing espionage by a former President..

Get a hold of yourselves.

 

[Sudden Impact]

I bet nobody here even knows the procedural issue of declassifying docs.
Just because there is pepper in the salt shaker doesn't make it pepper..as evidenced by the covers.
Like there are not thousands of actual paper copies that must be rubber stamped.
What happens when a doc is unclassified..The Feds pull all the copies and rubber stamp unclassified?

This is stupid.

The simple answer is that they are held on a need to know basis with limited access. The more complicated answer is related to the content the document.

 

[NCFisher]

I will admit to mixing your conversations up with some others but I edited above and as I told you early on that Trump had to follow a step by step process and a procedural path to declassify material you continued to disagree. You fit the response to be a victim of the conversations vs admitting you were wrong. Completely changing the dialogue of the conversation to support yourself. Nice try.

?
Because I disagree with THAT point of your argument and we'll still disagree on that point.

Your reply that began this exchange was related to my post to RT85 who mentioned all criminal charges in the raid warrant didn't contain classification as an element. I replied to that and the case Garland is likely trying to establish. You were mostly on topic the first post but on your second reply, for some reason, began exposition of the possession argument...that no one was discussing.

That sounds remarkably akin to "you fit the response to be a victim of the conversation by changing the dialogue to support yourself", eh?

 

[Orangeburst]

The simple answer is that they are held on a need to know basis with limited access. The more complicated answer is related to the content the document.

What does that even mean? The Executive is the holder of all info.

 

[Sudden Impact]

What does that even mean? The Executive is the holder of all info.

I have the same question. What does that even mean? The Executive? Should I be reading in between the lines? Cryptic?
I don't know for sure but if what has been reported is true regarding the content of the documents, some of the information that Trump supposedly declassified could/would not be declassified without creating a risk to National Security. If proper procedures had been followed it would have been sent to the governing agencies and NSA for review and appeals. Even if declassified it would remain in the National Archives on a need to know basis in some cases. 9/11 is a great example of how classified information was declassified and released to the public in a timely manner. With the information Trump supposedly possessed it was not critical for the American Public to know and would have more than likely failed the litmus test. Plus, there would have been great concern for those providing HUMINT (commonly referred to as spies, confidential informants, boots on the ground, embedded agents)

 

[StarRaider]

Hey look everyone...we finally got him. Congratulations.

Insurance policies.... based on estimates

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

So first it was the Jan 6th fiasco and now this. Why are all these distractions all of a sudden being brought to light in an election year?

 

[StarRaider]

So first it was the Jan 6th fiasco and now this. Why are all these distractions all of a sudden being brought to light in an election year?

 

[Weezer]

So first it was the Jan 6th fiasco and now this. Why are all these distractions all of a sudden being brought to light in an election year?

Why ask a question you've already answered?

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Why ask a question you've already answered?

I just wanted to see what the liberals on the board have to say. Call me curious.

 

[SuzyVol]

I bet nobody here even knows the procedural issue of declassifying docs.
Just because there is pepper in the salt shaker doesn't make it pepper..as evidenced by the covers.
Like there are not thousands of actual paper copies that must be rubber stamped.
What happens when a doc is unclassified..The Feds pull all the copies and rubber stamp unclassified?

This is stupid.

Do you have any experience handling or managing classified documents? I have absolutely zero experience doing so. But I don't believe there are thousands of unaccounted-for copies of classified documents floating around. I also do not believe it is "stupid" to identify any declassified document as such, as well as all copies of said declassified document.